Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Shooter gone @ 50, Bedard re-launching Legion?!?!?!?

DC Editorial screwed up big time, veryvery. And it is very clear DC lost it last year big time not only with Legion, but with almost EVERYTHING they did:

- The relaunch of Suicide Squad was simply "shot" by that awful moneygrabber Villains-on-a-Planet. That story virtually rendered SS as a "past story retconned!"
- What about Countdown???
- Then, you get Jim Starlin to do Death of The New Gods (which is in itself a good story). However, Countdown doesn't have anything to do with that and Final Crisis DENIES what went on that book!
- The whole relaunch of the Titans proves miserable: sales sank, artists rotate like hell's loose.
- What's the schedule for DC books these days? Huh?
- Wonder Woman relaunched once, twice, three times...
- Flash is back, is not, is so, is not...
- So now Hawkman is.. is not, is so, is not...

So Shooter is called to save Waid's fiasco with the threeboot. Then, the following month, DC announces Johns (DC's superstar of the month) will do something called Legion of 3 Worlds, tied to their biggest event and screaming THE OLD LEGION TEAM IS BACK. To make it worse, DC editorial never denies continuous gossips on the demise of the book and, whenever talking about the future of LSH, points out to Johns, as if Shooter and Manapul's never existed. Very good managing indeed.

There is no way to defend screw ups. And there is no way to defend them when mistakes are not being corrected, but simply getting more and more frequent. As someone said: why couldn't Shooter finish at #54 if Blue Beetle sells HALF of what LSH sells, even though LSH has to compete with L3W? They are killing a Top 100 Book for... well, let it rest for a while. Suuuure.

Sure, working at DC is tough, I simpatize with everybody who works hard to entertain us, but let's call it a mess when it is a mess. There is no excuse for keep pushing it after so long now.

And I am not so optimistic with the future of Legion. I can see some stupid minis coming up until they can get Johns' on the title, which will virtually be a Superman book. Hopefully, we will get Giffen/Levitz in the middle of it.

But if Titans is an example, we might have a Judd Winick Legion title, howzat?

Ditto. I feel very let down by this.

I am assuming that I have some control over the outcome of Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds.

1. I would have FC:L3W establish the following things:
a) the Three Worlds are relatively open to each other; it's possible to have regular communication, travel, and trade from one universe to the next
b) the three Legions join to form a single Legion that has authority in all three worlds
c) Impulse (Bart Allen) and either Superboy-Prime or Kon-El join the Legion

2. I would impose the following requirement: a story arc can be as long as the writer likes, but each individual issue must tell a complete story

3. No dwelling on continuity problems or complications

4. The default is for each issue to have a small cast of Legionnaires. Once a year or so, we can have a big fight scene with dozens of Legionnaires fighting a giant menace, but with a cast this big, the only way to learn about these characters is to take them a few at a time

5. A Legion comic book should be definitely within the superhero genre, but should also contain as much science fiction as possible without taking away from the superheroosity of it

6. Don't be afraid to make the stories small-scale. Without some small-scale stories, the large-scale ones don't mean anything

7. Occasional appearances by Superman and Supergirl

8. New, interesting villains

9. Two top-flight regular artists, with compatible styles, who take turns. The Legion can take a long time to draw, so let's give each artist twice as long to finish his issue

10. Meticulous editorial attention. Lightning Lad is not from Trom, the Legion only needs to discover once that Dream Girl is still alive, and you don't need an extra space after every word in boldface

11. Themes of diversity, teamwork, heroism, hope and the future are to be emphasized

12. Suggested storyline for later in the run: a small team of Legionnaires secretly travels to the isolated pocket universe where 5YL continuity ended up, and tries to save the Earth from destruction

I suspect I could add to this if I kept at it long enough.

My own prediction for another ongoing is 2011, earliest. DC doesn’t dare relaunch without Johns, whose plate is overflowing for the next two years with plans into 2012. Because their can be no successors or replacements, the risk of bollixing up his pseudo-original Legion is too great to entrust it to any other writer but its “Maker”.

DC’s floundering position in the marketplace also dictates a long rest period – they can’t afford to invest in anything but properties with high success potential. The Johnsboot Legion doesn’t qualify yet – they are merely supporting cast members who haven’t been tested on their own merits. Sales of LO3W are a weak indicator of Johnsboot self-sustainability. Take away the readers who buy to learn the ultimate fate of Superboy Prime, those who are buying for the resurrection of Bart Allen, completists who will purchase any and all Final Crisis tie-ins, and you cut the sales approximately in half. Remove Johns name from the credits, and you are left with a mini-series that would be lucky to sustain 30K.

And DC will be excruciatingly careful about any subsequent mini-series they decide to publish in the interim. They’ll turn to Johns or Levitz, but that’s about it, for fear of making an irreversible faux pas. For the foreseeable future, the Legion will join Aquaman, Hawkman, the Doom Patrol, the Metal Men, the Captain Marvel family and other injured or senile properties that fly in a holding pattern on the fringes of the DC Universe.

Plus, I strongly suspect the resolution of LO3W will enrage so many Legion fans, a long cooling off period will be absolutely necessary for survival. And I don’t mean enraged 3boots fans alone. We’re talking angry and disappointed reboot fans, TMK fans, post-Crisis fans, as well as disgusted fans of the *actual* original Legion (like myself) who have only disdain for John’s cardboard doppelgangers. Worst case, it could generate enough negative buzz to thwart the chances of a another relaunch altogether.

It’s beyond incredible how anyone who’s actually read and comprehended Didio’s statements can put a optimistic spin on it. The implosion of one version of the Legion spews radioactive waste on all the others. This news is not only about the end of the 3boot Legion, it’s about the near meltdown of the entire franchise. Nobody wins.

BTW, according to rumours, the Tony Bedard project is in fact L.E.G.I.O.N

I guess this means that the Time Trapper is really Dan Dido?

Was the original plan for LSH #50 & LO3W #5 to be released on the same month?

i'm optimist about the future of the legion.

i think DC is trying to do what marvel did with thor. let the franchise sleep for a while, until they can relaunch it the way it deserves (if only DC had done the same with the flash, too!). i think with thor it was worth the wait.

i'm sure once johns' schedule will be less busy he will be the man behind the new legion book.

I think those are very good points. But I want to go back to the original question, which is what would you do with the current situation. I don't think killing the current book was necessary.

I don't know what level of sales is needed to make a book profitably, so that is an obvious barrier to knowing what is possible. However, because DC is allowing a number of books to continue at the 20,000-level, I assume those books break even. So I'm going to assume that the current LSH book is not losing money.

So with that said, here is what I would do. I would make Lo3W into a real crossover. Johns' focus is and will be on the Action Legion. He has been quite clear about that. So the first thing I would do is make sure that the crossover would have promoted not just the Action Legion, but the characters from the existing book. (I'm stuck with Three Worlds, but if I had a choice, I would have left out the post-boot characters and focused on the Action Legion [since so many believe they are the "real" Legion] and the threeboot [because that is what the book is now].)

Have Shooter collaborate on the title. Let readers of the "event" learn about the characters that are in the ongoing series. They might like them. In their current incarnations, they seem to have more depth than the Johns' Legion.

End Lo3W with two books and one current DC 20th century character in each Legion. Put Superman in the Action Legion. Put Kon-el in the threeboot. (Prime might also work, but I'm not sure if the threeboot is consistent with his memories.) Use the 20th century character to introduce the Legionnaires, but do not make him the focus of the new book (ala Supergirl under Waid). The 20th century character is a member of the team, an should be treated accordingly. However, as the 20th century character integrates into the team, we can get his perspective on all these characters who may be somewhat unknown to readers.

Why two books? What DC fails to understand is that Legion fans are cult fans. We will buy two Legion books -- if they are geared to us. Legion in the 31st Century was a kid's book with very short stories, but the core Legion audience is much older. I don't think two books will hurt the current Legion sales, and a new Action or Superman/Legion book will sell at least in the same range, probably higher (certainly it will sell higher to start, but sales will only be sustained at higher levels if the writing and art are good). As for stories, both universes are full of story possibilities.

Keep Shooter/Manapul on Legion and give both Legions a shot. How could Shooter's run have gotten any traction when, just as he arrived, DC began shouting from the rooftops about Johns' Legion? Promote the two books so that fans know about them. Have them start with a "reintroduction" period so that new fans are not lost. I think a lot of readers were turned off by the dystopian universe and the underagers versus adults emphasis, but Shooter has largely undid those elements and I actually think the current story-telling style of the threeboot is the closest to "classic" Legion that we've had.

Keep the post-Lo3W Legions to their current rosters for at least a year. The threeboot currently has a reasonable number of characters -- the 20th C character, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, Ultra Boy, Braniac Five, Invisible Kid, Chameleon, Timber Wolf, Light Lass, Star Boy, Princess Projectra, Phantom Girl, Shadow Lass, Element Lad, Atom Girl, Dream Girl (hopefully), and Colossal Boy (plus 1 or 2 more from the new tryouts). Don't bring back Cosmic Boy or Sun Boy for now. Don't bring back Terror Firma or the Wanderers or any of those large groups. They are too hard for new readers to follow. I would also keep Karate Kid and Triplicate Girl out for awhile. Fifteen characters or so is not too overwhelming, but any more would be difficult for new fans to follow. Focus on plots, but keep developing the characters. Don't just jump from one universe-threatening event to another.

For the Action Legion book, do the same thing. Superman, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy, Brainiac Five, Colossal Boy, Night Girl, Shadow Lass, Timber Wolf, Lightning Lass, Polar Boy, Chameleon Girl, Invisible Kid, Blok, Ultra Boy, Phantom Girl, Mon-El, Night Girl, and Shrinking Violet all appeared in the first issue of Lo3W. Wildfire, Dawnstar, and Blok were all in the Action run, so I assume they are part of the continuity. That's already a nearly-overwhelming cast for new readers (perhaps it should even be pared down). So don't bring back E-Lad, Sensor Girl or Matter Eater Lad. And don't add anyone until the current team is well known. That includes Sensor Girl, Element Lad, and Dream Girl.

Critical to the success of this new book is developing the characters. Don't assume that readers know them. Spend some time introducing these characters to a new generation. Without annotations, Lo3W was probably nearly impossible for readers to follow in terms of understanding the characters and their powers. (I like the fact that both LSH and Lo3W are continuing to use the little boxes describing each character when they first appear in the story. While that may seem unnecessary for longtime readers, it helps immensely when someone picks up the book and wonders 'who's that'? Considering readers need to learn code name, real name, powers, and background for more than a dozen characters, those boxes should become standard for any Legion book.)

Develop the characters beyond archetypes. Waid's Legion failed, imo, because the characters were too one-note. Ultra Boy was stupid, Lightning Lad was hot-headed, Cosmic Boy was imperious, Braniac Five was smart but unemotional, Karate Kid was sage-like, etc. Shooter's great success was in restoring depth to the characters. They are teens, they make stupid decisions and mistakes, and they don't always act according to what you would assume from their archetype. At the same time, they sometimes surprise you (ala Jo in the last issue). I know find the threeboot characters interesting to read characterwise, and don't simply want to read the books out of a curiosity about how they will react to the threat of the month. This is my biggest fear with Johns' Legion. So far, his books have been all plot and little character (which event books typically are), but I don't think that can sustain a book on an ongoing basis.

For both books, the writers need to ensure that they balance the stories in terms of focus. Every writer has his or her favorite characters, but so do fans. The writers need to avoid focusing too heavily on just a few characters and leaving the others as afterthoughts.

I'm sure I can think of more, but the big thing is that I believe there is room in the DC Universe for the threeboot, especially if it continues to be well-written and character-focused as Shooter's run has been.

As I really am no big Superman fan, I still could enjoy Action Comics because the return of the para-classic Legion was spectacular and I did not care if Superman was so important in this return. Should the Legion continue to be standing in Supermans shadow in a possible new book, I will be sharing your concerns 100%.

As for characterization, well, anybody who could live through 30 issues of Mark Waids non-existant characterization might be tolerant as far as an obvious event book like Lightning Saga or Action Comics is going. Let's face it: Those storylines were mostly about the event of the Legion returning, the story was still solid as was the characterization. L3W also is about the event. An ongoing book should face the challenge of going in depths with the characters, and should they fail on this level, I will certainly be one of the first to criticize it.

Let this old/new version of the classics actually be returning, and then we'll see how it goes.

The thing which really makes me optimistic is the fate of the JSA. This book lay in the gutters for decades, hardly ever had an ongoing book, was in a total continuity slump and still, Robinson, Goyer and Johns managed to make it a constant top-seller and a very satisfactory read since 1999, one secret of its success certainly being the stability in the creative department. They managed to save an unsaveable franchize. If they really put their love and skills into it, they can save the Legion franchize as well...

Last night I sent Dan Didio a short email using the address provided in this thread. I wrote:


I just received the following, pleasant reply from Dan Didio.

Nice!

It is nice. Nice of him to answer at all, and certainly courteous, and what he said was just the sort of thing we want to hear.

Still... how should I put this...

An e-mail like that is basically worth its weight in gold.

When it comes to the Legion, Didio's word is basically worth its weight in horse manure.

Yeah, I'm going to write him a letter, too.

It's a politician's answer: Tell them what they want to hear but nothing of substance.

Notice the vague wording: "great product" (this could mean anything from a new series to Legion buttons) . . . "clarify the status" (this could mean anything from whether or not the Legion continues to be published to how they interact with the rest of the DCU) . . . "continue to be a mainstay" (in what way? As a new series, as supporting characters, as a collection of reprints?).

I used to believe that any response from comics creators or editors was good, but, in the current political climate, I feel that such answers are only an attempt to manipulate fans.

If you do, ask him who was the genius who trampled Shooter by releasing L3W over his tenure and forgetting to include him - the main writer - on it.

I wouldn't go that far, I think you pretty much nailed it first: it was a protocolar answer. I don't think Didio means badly of us (he surely loves comics and loves his job) but his tenure recently has been fractured with incompetence and mismanagement.
I would say now it is the time for DC to take risks. But they won't: they will insist on making mistakes.
And Marvel is no comparison to it: I simply don't like their product at all, except for very few franchises that are more DC oriented (like Daredevil).

Well, at least a new Hero Squared book will come out next year.

No, when you write letters to people like that, representatives of large corporations, there's no point in getting hostile. It doesn't get you anywhere and it gives them a reason to dismiss your letter.

I believe that these are the principles to follow when writing such entities:
1. Be polite.
2. Be concise; if it's too long, it doesn't matter how good a letter it is, because they won't read it.
3. The smarter and more reasonable you sound, the more chances you have of getting someone to listen to you.
4. A paper letter carries more weight than an e-mail.
5. Explain, simply, what it is you want.
6. Explain how it's in their best interests.
7. Strength in numbers: a thousand letters is better than a hundred letters is better than one letter.

I sent DiDio an e-mail saying that I was going to boycott all of DC's comics until the Legion was being published again. He sent me the exact same reply he sent Semi Transparent Fellow, except that he added "I am always surprised to hear someone willing to drop the entire line on the basis of one series."

I'm not surprised that it was a prefabricated answer. I am surprised that he included a personal reply about the boycott.

Just to clarify: one can be manipulative without having bad feelings or intentions toward those who are being manipulated. Parents do it all the time.

I was obviously ranting to you, but I would definitely touch such point. In fact, exact 17 years ago, I wrote a huge 3-page letter to Paul Levitz (probably in a passable English) and he actually wrote me back a PERSONAL letter (as in not pre-fabricated). It is lost somewhere around my house, but it is something I cherish to this day.

What I really think about DiDio's answer is that it's an accurate summary of his intentions. I believe that DC intends to do all kinds of great things with the Legion next year. But, as the expression goes, hope is not a plan.

It was probably a prefabricated reply about the boycott.

jesus people, i don't think being freakishly rude is the way to go. consider getting a really hostile, dickish email like that at your job. i do not envy his job. what other job do you get crazy emails from people that don't know you that are rude and filled with things you wouldn't say to someone that's actually kicked you in the face?

i think didio's answer is appropriate and more hope filled than i was expecting.

as for all the complaining that it's prefabricated, i'm sorry but what would you do if your email's being flooded with people all asking hte same question?! oh, i get it he's supposed to write 700 personal emails replying in detail to your demands. yeah, how much work would he actually get done. be practical, people. i think it shows that he READS these emails that he included a reply about the boycott and it didn't sound prefabricated to me, btw.

i totally agree with matthew's guidelines. do you know what you sound like when you say weird, crazy, uncalled for things? you sound like the homeless guy you avoid that talks about asteroids infesting the white house.