Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The Infinite Crisis Death Pool (SPOILERS)

I don't think Donna is a good subsitute for Diana, *especially* when the rumors about Donna tell us that she's going to be based in outer space.

Also, I don't understand why the fact that Diana killed Max makes her a good candidate for killing off. You're not the only one to link these ideas, but I can't understand how such a link was made.

True, but since the replacement Batman still keeps his own book, I doubt this is permanent.

Actually, didn't Gim survive until the end of the preboot era? It was only Zero Hour that "killed" him.

Gim was actually killed during End of an Era, when either the SW6 Gim or his adult counterpart (I forget which, now) was aged to death by Glorith, causing the other to vanish.

So he *almost* made it to the end of the preboot, but not quite.

Some interesting thoughts here, and I've meant to reply to this thread for awhile.

- The Ray - like Star Boy, I too love this character. He was one of the few '90's' things that I thought were really very cool, and I wish DC would do something with him. After years of clamoring for his return, we finally got him in YJ, and then suddenly, we lost him again.

- Lou's the boss of this little game, but I also think Black Condor should be off limits. I think it absolutely SUCKS though that he's gone too, since I think he's a pretty cool ass character. All the Freedom Fighters are, and I wish they could stick around have something done with them after.

My picks:

1. Dr. Light. I feel like this has to happen. And I hope, as I did a year ago, that Hawkman beheads him with his mace .

2. Jean Loring. I can't see her lasting as Eclipso, and this Infinite Crisis might be able to give some closure to Jean/Atom/Enlonganated Mna.

3. Golden Age Flash/Jay Garrick. It was actually Drake's post that made me think this, but I can see this happening. I'd hate to lose Jay, b/c he's always been my favorite JSAer, but a heroic send off for him would be nice, with a parrallel to Barry. I do have the feeling that a classic JSAer will die, and I don't think Carter is possible after all that's happened with him, and Wildcat just wouldn't have the same effect. Alan Scott is definately possible though.

4. Shift - Offing him at this point seems the obvious route. Second rate Metamorpho and the mani thing driving my own and many others like for him, which was his romance with Indigo, is kapoot.

5. Kon-El Superboy- For some reason, I see Superboy not making it after this one. I just feel like it's over for Kon, and I have to admit I'm not that sad about it. If DC would ever go back to 'Superman when he was a boy', which I think they might, I think that would be cool. Smallville, limbo-esque nature of Kon, many fans still not liking him and a variety of other reasons to believe this.

I also think that we might see the end of Arsenal too, but I've run out of room. I feel like if there were any Silver Age DC characters that would bite it, it'd be Roy. I really see no reason to have a 'Team Arrow' either, so Roy or Conner not making it through feels likely.

Very interesting thoughts on Wonder Woman by a lot of you guys.

OK. I've changed my list to reflect this.

Did Jean have another nervous breakdown??? How did Eclipso figure into it?

Is Impulse dead yet? He is sooooo annoying...

Jean killed Sue Dibny to try to make Ray love her again. So yes she had a mental bobble.

And now she is Eclipso, and is putting the romantic moves on the Spectre whom she has convinced needs to wipe out all magic in the DCU.

Impulse is now Kid Flash. Geoff Johns took all the edge out of the character, which is good or bad depending on what you like.

Holy Haddock!

Someone at DC must have written for "Days Of Our Lives" at some stage!

About Impulse/Kid Flash: Now that XS is no more, does that mean his parent is not Don Allen but someone else?

Oddly enough, see the newest JSA for more about Booster and the other JLIer's. One of the best characterizations I've seen of Booster (who's not even in the issue) in a long time.

I'm seriously hoping that they are going to pick up the slack after the events of Infite Crisis. They HAVE to feel some sort of responsibility for what has happened and apparrently for being led around as long as they have by Max.

Jamie

Oh, dear god, plase NO! He'll probably make Seaguy a member. UG!

Expect an homage to the original classic Supergirl death cover from Crisis1 with Power Girl standing in for Kara.

Comics have traditionally held fast to a code, held over from Victorian literature, that demands all evil deeds be punished by stories end. Some also refer to it as the "Shooter rule," given that in his role at the time as editor-in-chief, Shooter demanded the original death of Pheonix given her role in the genocide of an entire alien planet. If Claremont had been given his way, Pheonix would never have been killed off, IIRC from later interviews.

If WW has killed Max, it stands to reason that she too will meet an untimely end before the series is over.

In laymens terms, she stepped over the line and now has to pay the price.

That's part of what led to my belief that it is Diana as being the big one to die. That and the whole 'unifying' aspect of the tragedy.

Think of how she's been portrayed lately, bridging the gaps (and being the big sister to the DCU) for many heroes. IMO, DC's been building her up in this light so that her sacrifice will have all the more impact when the time comes.

Of course, this could be nothing more than harmless speculation, which I am fine with. I'd rather not see her go.

Jamie

Jamie

I think the Death Poll predictions depend entirely on what, exactly, one expects out of Crisis2.

If, as many assume, Crisis2 is just a routine event, and the only lasting result will be skipping the DCU ahead one year, then I think the deaths will be fairly minor.

If, as some fervently hope, Crisis2 means the return of the multiverse, then I think the deaths could be fairly major, as we will be seeing the swan-song for this particular reality/Earth.

My current working theory involved a mixture of both.

Mid way though Crisis2 is the "blip" in which "something happens" and everything skips ahead one year. But I note that the blip is not the end result of Crisis2.

Fans will be led to believe that the one year jump is the big reveal for Crisis2 and are expected to buy into all the changes seen in the latter part of the series and through the early part of 52, assuming that the changes are the new status quo for the DCU.

However, I believe that the end result of Crisis2 wil be the restoration of the multiverse and the trasfer of focus to a brand new Earth.

What 52 does is allow for the telling of the final year of the curent DCU as some book move to the new Earth. Also, one major lesson from Crisis1 is that when you reboot everything, you can't start all the series at once as some heroes arrived on scene sooner than others. So, while some book will move immediatly to the new Earth, others with stick with the current one year jump continuity through the end of 52.

Expect the new Superman Chonicles and Batman Chonicles series to focus on one or the other of the two realities while the other family books concentrate on the other.

The end result will come only after 52 when all the books have shifted to the new Earth, and/or to other Earths (i.e., I'm still hoping that the new Freedom Fighters series will take place on Earth X, where the Nazi's won WWII)

So, that said, who am I picking in the death pool?

1. Wonder Woman (major death, makes right killing of Max, Donna takes over WW role with one year jump and through end of 52, when Diana makes her entry into man's world of the new DCU Earth. Expect whatever form WW takes at that time to closely match whatever Joss Whedon has planned for the movie)

2. Manhunter (a gurenteed death, I think, regardless of which way things go. Presumed impact of legacy name and low sales of her book make death immenant)

3. Power Girl (I think that her origin will reveal that she is an anomoly, born of the Crisis, something sort of left over and unaccounted for when the worlds merged. Since she was born of Crisis, I think she must die of Crisis, and will somehow end of sacraficing herself. Her death, or sacrafice, will probably be the trigger for the one year jump. The real question will be, what happens then? Will JSA be returned to Earth2, or will the new DCU still have a JSA born of WWII?)

4. Jay Garrick (I'm betting on the return of Earth2, with the new Earth coming out of Crisis2 beginning it's heroic age with the debut of Superman. This will make Jay in his mid-80s on Earth2. As I expect the fight against to continue on after the multiverse returnes, Jay will probably get a grand death scene)

5. Jean Loring (I can't imagine who she ends of surviving? In fact, she will probably end up being killed by Atom, whi returns in the nick of time in his Sword of the Atom garb and runs her through with a long blade.)

Now, for a wacky prediction. What becomes of all the heroes made redundent by the restoration of the multiverse? One has to assume that the current DCU will not just fade qietly into the night. TPTB will want a big splash, and the multiverse will probably have to some at the expence of the amalgamated DCU of the past two decades.

I expect the new DCU to look, albeit with updates, much like the early silver age, with everyone returned to their traditional roles.

So what of the young heroes who made their debut in the post-Crisis time frame? I exxpect them to survive, but get shunted from all realities. As such, they will wander the multiverse, visiting many Earths and fighting evil where they find it as The Forgotten Heroes. Team to include Kyle Raynor (Green Lantern), Connor Hawke (Green Arrow), Bart Allen (Flash), Conner Kent/Kon-El (Superman), Tim Drake (Batman), Cassie Sandsmark (sp?) (Wonder Woman), what's his name Golden Eagle (Hawkman), and maybe a few others, each taking a traditional JLA'ers role

Reading through some of these theories has solidified my belief that a formal return of the multiverse is not the best way to go.

I have to say I kinda agree. I don't think a return to the JSA on Earth-2 will make things easier for the majority of fans. I understand others will disagree, and as much as a lot of what people are saying seems interesting, the return of the multiverse pre-crisis is something that will leave almost all fans high and dry.

I certainly don't think trying to split the current "merged" universe apart would work. I do think as a matter of fact that DCU is eventually going to have to relaunch/reinvent its major properties once again, and that rather than constantly trying to perform retcons within a single timeline, it would be much easier/smoother in the longterm to simply be able to "shift to a new universe".

Is Charlie Parker still Golden Eagle or is it someone else?

Except that Diana's deed was no more evil than her killing Medousa. Or is it that it's automatically more evil to kill humans than any other sentient beings?

I have to disagree. Max is a case of a threat that literally cannot be stopped without death. If he's been controlling Superman from afar he's far too dangerous to live.

I don't think so, unless it's a new Earth that's so similar to the one we're seeing now as to be pointless to show. We already know that events in the main books take place after 52. IOW, we'll be seeing a change in the status quo but won't know exactly what happened until the 52 event is over. We also know that the Teen Titans is going to have the same cast (with maybe a minor change based on things that happen in the previous year) and we know that something dramatically affects Batman. It doesn't sound at all to me like this is a brand new Earth.

Didnt Bette Kane rename herself Flamebird or something, coz i remember an Titans annual which ran through the entire history of the team and it ended with a few choice George Perez Who's Who-like entries which also covered Golden Eagle (wearing a new costume) and other long-forgotten team members (like Bumblebee)

Please would someone confirm this for me?

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, that's rationalizing something that 'super-heroes' (or in this case the Trinity) are not supposed to do/believe in.

Whether or not it was the right thing to do (as I understand why Diana made the decision she did), she took a life. She took it upon herself to be judge, jury, and executioner. When someone with the powers far beyond mortal men start making those kinds of decisions, trouble begins.

Heck the whole last season of JLU dealt with this very fear and so does VU, to an extent.

Jamie

FB, I think Stratum has it. Pofo didn't say if he agrees with Diana or not, just that those types of actions often have consequences, like Jim Shooter having Phoenix killed.

Killing Medusa's is perfectly acceptable. It's a well known fact. I thought you knew that.