Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Nightwing (spoilers)

I've never been a fan of sidekicks "graduating" into their mentors' role. I think it's disrespectful on two levels:

1) It says that no matter how great a former sidekick becomes in his own right, like Nightwing or Donna Troy, they are destined to lose their own identity in order to pretend they are someone "better"

2) That the mask is more important than the person behind it (Batman is too important, so if Bruce steps down we gotta shove someone else into the costume and pretend it's the same person).

This was always my problem with writers and fans who look at the Titans as the Justice League Replacements. The Titans outgrew their mentors' shadows years ago, but they are constantly forced to play second fiddle to the "Big Guns".

The world doesn't need a Batman, but DC Comics does, so they'll just make sure that someone is wearing the suit.

Interesting Nightwing tidbit from ths week's Comic Book Legends Revealed article-- Dick was intended to die in Infinite Crisis, with Jones' run on Nightwing starring Jason Todd. While not an improvement, at least that would've made BJ's run on the book make sense.

Paul Levtiz you sly dog. One more reason why you're my ****in boy! He acted like the Supreme Court of DC here!!

POV, Jones can't fault his bad work on Nightwing to the editorial fiat. His other work speaks to this. I can't find anything he's written that has been appealing or successful.

Putting Jason in the black-n-blue was never going to work. Bringing him back from the dead was a bad Winick idea; his death had more significance than anything since his return.

I get what your saying, but it's not just at DC. We've had a Nightwing book for 10 years, and he hasn't garnered the fanatic fanbase that Bats has. And Dick's been around longer than WW. Readers want a Batman or WW more than they want Dick or Donna.

The sidekicks always seemed to be grooming for taking over their mentors' roles- Kid Flash, Aqualad, Wonder Girl aren't names suggesting they were looking to find their own identity.

I've oft mentioned my desire to see a new generation of heroes. I like Kyle and Connor, Wally and Donna. Wally showed us it can be done right; Kyle held his own for a long while before DC began the Great Resurrection.

The more I read from Tomasi, the more I think about it, seeing Dick in the cape and cowl excites me. He would bring a lively, fresh attitude to Batman- he would strike fear in the cowardly and superstitious lot and joke and pal with the brightly dressed compatriots.

The way i see it, the sooner Winick and Didio are gone, the better DC will be.

Understand, i am not hating on Didio, from what i have read he is a good guy personally, but...

Under Didio's stewardship, books are frequently late, books that are good lose good creators (Dixon) who feel driven off due to various reasons, writers that don't really sell well but seem to be in his favored circle keep getting work...which leads us to Winick.

I don't know the guy, and i don't hate him personally, but what he does to books shouldn't be allowed. He is probably the closest thing to a marvel writer that DC has, and he always comes up short. Either his stories are anti-climatic, or he changes characters and has them act in ways diametrically opposed to their characters, or he doesn't bother to do his research and find out where a character is when he takes over the writing of that character.

I actually quit reading GL because of him, and i quit GA when he came aboard. He left GA and i picked it up with issue 15.

If you go back and look at his shoehorning in a character in GL to make it like it was 30 years earlier (supposedly relevant), as opposed to how it is being written now, its obvious that he doesn't fit.

*Note, yes, i am talking about the Terry Berg character. I objected to the heavy-handedness with which the character was used, not that the character was gay. If he had been a good character that happened to be gay, it would have been fine. Instead, he was a character that was there TO BE gay. I may be wrong in thinking like this, but it was insulting to both straight and gay people as i saw it. Contrast that with a character like Tasmanian Devil, who is a superhero that is gay, and not a gay superhero, and you get the idea, i hope.

His work on Nightwing was horrible in Outsiders, its why i dropped the book after three issues. And the only reason i am now reading Titans is because of Howard Porters return. But i understand there may be a new writer coming on board, so i will stick it out.

Didio has good ideas some times, but he is failing to execute them well, and it seems like it is starting to cause dissension and rifts in the DC ranks. DC has a rot from the inside, and its showing up in things like Nightwings cancellation.

Winnick is probably the worst writer DC has had in the last 15 years. Not everything he touches is terrible, but most of it is.

The Jason Todd thing is just so poor. It added nothing of value to Batman or DC. Jason's death was actually a pretty historic and great part of Batman's history. And to cap it all off, its not like DC has had any great success with it. Fans don't love it. The media didn't make a story of it. It was a failed marketing ploy and now we're stuck with a living Jason Todd, whose appearance in any comic is equivalent to being the ultimate turn-off.

I put Jason in the same class as Barry's sacrifice.

The death of each character, the circumstances surround it, became the stuff of legends.

In Barry's case, he became, moreso than Superman even, the Ultimate Hero. He stayed dead. He died to save the universe. And because of that, what had been a basically bland character for most of his existence became a symbol, standing for something far greater than the character itself.

As to Jason Todd, it made news around the world when people voted to "Kill Robin!" Yes, the comic fans knew the difference, but to most of the world, Robin was still Dick Grayson. And spinning out of that death came some fantastic stories, and the death became the basis for character change and expansion. That on singular event reshaped how Bruce Wayne percieved his war, and the ripples continued for years.

Now, Barry is back, and the symbol of the sacrifice is just another soap opera point.

Jason Todd is back and ..well...ehhh.

I love those old Barry Allen Flash books. I have been chasing the ones i missed down for years. And i have no doubt that Geoff and Company will tell some great stories...but in bringing him into this age, modern story creep cannot help but take place.

And that means that it wont be the barry we remember. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it wont be the character that everyone remembers, it will be the updated version.

Just my thoughts...i hope they make sense.

I agree 100% on both counts.

Reason #1000000000000 why Judd Winick's career at DC Comics needs to be erased from our international psyche.

Winnick is a God! I mean, look at the fresh new things he's doing with the Titans! Jericho hasn't gone bugf*ck in, like, months! What an original!

I'm sorta surprised that no one has commented on this week's issue, the final issue of the run.

With all the ups and downs this title has had over the past few years, I suspect not many people have been reading it which is a shame because it really has been a good read recently.

That being said, this last issue was truly outstanding! Very emotional at points but rightly so. The scene in the bat cave where Dick and Alfred both agree that Bruce is really gone is very strong. It has a nice touch in that Tim is hiding on the stairs listening in on the conversation.

Dick's visit to the spot where Bruce's parents were gunned down is also special. The care he takes in replacing the burned out street light is touching. The juxtaposition of Dick & Bruce and their dying parents really brings home what these characters share at their core.

Although I'm sure Bruce will be back one day, I think Dick will end up in the Cowl for a while. The Nightwing name has already been passed in the DCU to the New Krypton Nightwing of Nightwing & Flamebird (appearing in Superman & Action Comics apparently)

One good thing that will come of this is that Tim really needs Dick to help him through all the death and turmoil he has experienced. He is slowly headed down a very dark road which really doesn't suit in my opinion. Having his fun loving "big brother" around on a regular basis and allowing them to team as Batman & Robin, will help his perspective tremendously and bring Tim back to where he should be.

I've always felt that Dick & Tim would be a perfect duo, not so much sidekick and mentor as partners that share absolute trust and loyalty. It will be fun to see the "brothers" playing together for a while.

I know it, Vee. Thing is, i am just burned out on the situation. Not the character, but the situation. I've been one of those voices over on the DC boards asking for better than what we were getting, and being completely ignored.

Then we get Tomasi, who easily makes his bones on Nightwing, only to have the wonderful editorial staff of DC decide that we dont need batman in batman, cancel two of my favorite books, and shift him out of the nightwing persona.

Over a decade now of wanting a better book. We get it, DC cancels it.

About the only books screwed worse than Nightwing have been Legion, Hawkman, and Aquaman. And of the four, Nightwing and Legion were so tough to kill it took decades.

but, congrats to Didio. He managed to pull it off.

Another comic that really impressed the hell out of me this month is Nightwing #1. At long last, Dick Grayson is truly back! No more ‘wearing Daddy’s shoes’, no more not being able to find his footing (talking about pre-Dick as Batman days). Dick is Nightwing and he’s one of the best and most important characters in the entire DCU. #1 accomplished its job in making you feel that immediately. And it felt damn good.

Everything about the issue clicked for me, making me more impressed with this outing than any story since Dixon was writing Dick’s solo title. But perhaps the very best thing is the artwork: Eddy Barrows draws one hell of a strong superhero with presence. He also draws a damn good action scene, and his quiet moments are equally a delight. The whole issue just looked fantastic from beginning to end, and inker JP Mayer and colorist Rod Reis (who also nailed it on Aquaman) helped make it so as well and are also deserving of praise.

Writer Kyle Higgins also impressed me, and I was skeptical after reading his Suicide Squad issue. But here he immediately captures Dick Grayson and does something very notable—he shows in one scene some of the ways how Dick is very much like Batman, and then shows soon after how Dick is very much *not* like Batman. It subtly showcases who Dick is as a character and I think it really is done well. This is something Higgins will likely be repeating often.

The issue is paced well throughout and the appearance of Haley’s Circus is inspired. I’m hoping they become recurring supporting characters for Dick, even if it means he meets up with them in other cities (why limit him to Gotham, after all?). The whole dichotomy of Dick feeling comfortable in Gotham as a home and his original home coming back into his life is another nice intentional contradiction Higgins added.

The villain is interesting, if for no other reason that Barrows draws him really well, and I’m curious if the guy we see taking a bus into Gotham is who he is (which is likely) or if its someone else, like the trapeze artist that may end up competing with Dick for Raya’s affections.

Really solid issue. I’m damned please to have Nightwing back after a long, long period of either uninspired (and sometimes even offensive) stories, and then having him as Batman, which to me never felt right.

Cobie Comparison: did I enjoy as much as JL #1? Absolutely. One of the better offerings of the DCnU.

So where's Pov? CJ? Flannel Lass? Where are all the Nightwing peeps?! Dick is probably the third most popular DC character besides Batman and Green Lantern after all!

#2 was a continuation #1's excellent delivery. It's everything I wanted in a Nightwing book and more as Dick kicks ass as Nightwng and continues to get some much needed development as Dick Grayson.

I'm really digging the Haley's Circus plot element and anxious to see where it goes. The more I think about it, if Dick stays connected to Haley's and the series heads out on the road, going from city to city, I would totally be down with that.

Eddie Barrows draws an exiting superhero comic with an art style that makes me wonder why this isn't the #1 comic out there? He's different from Jim Lee but has that same sort of explosiveness. And Higgins has impressed the hell out of me.

So where's all the Nightwing peeps?

NIghtwing was not one of the new DC books that I planned to buy. I've been trying so hard to stay within budget. The previews broke me down and I ended up buying the first two issues. Barrows work is gorgeous. Dick is right in character. The Haley connection is presented well. I guess I'm in.

Enjoying Nightwing.

No, really. I'm glad he's back to his own identity. It's amusing to me that of the 13 New 52 #1's I've bought *5* of them are Bat-related, 6 if you count JLI... and NONE of them star Bruce. And I'd include Nightwing, Catwoman and Batwoman in my personal Top 5.

I'm glad to see Higgins touching on Dick's history with the circus and I'd like to see that as an ongoing element in the title. Dick on the road with Haley's is actually a great idea I hadn't considered, but it'd be a great device to introduce locales and guest-stars we wouldn't ordinarily think of for a Nightwing tale.

Eddie Barrows... the name is familiar from solicitations I saw for Teen Titans awhile back, but in my distaste for that franchise these past years I never got to see his work. He's PERfect here.

I hope Dick sticks with Haley's. When we were making up our own new DCU ideas before the end of FLASHPOINT, I kind of had the same idea for Nightwing-- except that I would've had current DCU anathemic characters like Donna Troy and Wally West guest-starring pretty routinely. Every guest star would've had to do a routine in the circus whenever they popped up.

I like what I've read so far: I hope the acrobats end up being all friendly, even if rivals, rather than fodder for villainy. I hope he wears red and blue Nightwing suits indiscriminately- if he has to always wear one color (with black), I'd pick blue.

I wonder if this DCU will have a Duela Dent?

I'm digging Nightwing, but I have mixed feelings about the circus connection... sure, it's a important part of Dick's background, but I don't want his story to get bogged down by a bunch of "this is how it is in the circus" rhetoric... too often, like an actual circus, it's becomes about the sideshow freaks...

Otherwise, I'm glad to see Dick out from under the cowl... the art is beautiful... Dick remains pretty kick ass, and I'm intrigued where the secret identity revelation goes...

3 fins up

Hmmm- possible name for future Nightwing sidekick... Ballyhoo. A fellow circus kid.

I feel opposite to Sharky-- I'd love extensive exploration of cirus lore and tradition. Sideshow freaks are pretty much extinct, though, aren't they? At least of the fat lady, dog-faced boy kind of freaks? I suppose very small circuses that stick to the rural routes might still mount a sideshow.

Are his former circus friends vital enough characters to make you forget the enormous hole left in Dick's back-story- really in his whole characterization-- by the absence of Wally and Donna and Garth? I like the new characters, but I'd have to strongly say 'no'.

I really wish they'd made the girl anything but another redhead.

This title would be among the new DC's very best if the villain had more of a personality and less generic weaponry. He just reads 'seen this a million times' to me without having anything memorable about him other than a murky motive.

Still a very good book, though. There's several reasons why Dick Grayson has been a popular character for 70 plus years now.

Well, this concept is spot on for something I brought up over on the DC boards... getting him out of Gotham and from under the Batumbrella for a time. I wanted him to travel the DCU a bit, have some guest stars and really build up the connection between nightwing and the DCU. Funnily enough, he's been around nearly as long as superman, but has few connections outside the bat family and the Titans.

I thought that some guests in differing areas, such as Mr. E for the spooky, or Jay Garrick for the Flash, just introduce him to the rest of the DCU. I even included the circus some.

As for the new series, I'm loving it. The art is top notch, which scares me. They raid Nightwing whenever a "big" gun gets in trouble and Barrows is definitely droppin' tha hammer here.

Writing...knockin' it out.

Also loving it for all the reasons you guys mention above. The writing and art are spot on and I love the effort being put into giving Dick a new premise, direction and supporting cast. In #3 we got time in Atlantic City and Chicago! That kind of fast-paced change in settings could really work for Dick and mirror his 'on the go' personality.

I'd enjoy seeing guest stars in other cities but definitely don't want to see this turn into a team-up book. Perhaps once every six issues is appropriate, otherwise it becomes a cheap sales ploy. If anything, DC should supplement Nightwing's series by having him be the lead co-star of a new Brave & Bold series and use the existing premise of the current book to justify its existence. I know I'd buy another Nightwing comic!

So, 6 issues in and I'm still loving Nightwing. So much so, in fact that it's a contender for my favorite DCnU series. Its just clicking for me and it feels great to have Dick back being his own man, having his own adventures and being done right.

Part of the reason is artist Eddie Barrows and his inkers & colorists. The art is just explosive! Energetic, larger than life and full of emotion. Barrows has quickly moved high onto my radar.

I love the recent twists for Saiko and Raya, which has added a new level of drama. This is a real solid superhero series that for the first time since Dixon sets Nightwing apart as his own franchise again.

I like the book, but I'm afraid Dick's about to be grounded only in Gotham again. Maybe I'm wrong. That would decrease my enjoyment of the title quite a bit.

Issue by issue, I really like the book. But when I think about things, I have a hard time imagining how Dick Grayson became who he is without the presence of Donna and Wally in his life- well, all the Teen Titans, really. But especially those two.

Other Bat characters just can't fill the void. For me, anyway.

The handling of that 'middle' generation of DC heroes is the new DCU's biggest misstep. One with ramifications equal to those made after the first Crisis. At least it isn't the LSH that'll suffer because of them. Knock on simulated wood.

#7. My stint reading this title just might be ending soon. I really dislike the turns taken here. Haley's Circus was just a candidate pool for the Talons of the Court of Owls all these years?

Dick Grayson was next to 'graduate'?

Yuck. Actually, Yuck doesn't even come close to it.

I'm beginning to hope a merger/separation with the pre-Flashpoint DCU is going to happen in Multiversity or something. Some of the decisions made in regards to these characters I'm finding nauseating.