Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities So... when does the JLA actually get good?

I was a fan of Steel, Vixen, and Gypsy. I admit even as a hispanic I couldn't relate with Vibe.

You know... I don't really remember anything about the Detroit era beyond the fact that it was what I collected as a kid. I'd sporadically bought issues before that, but that seemed like a groovy opportunity to start regularly buying it.

And, hey, it had Commander Steel in it! Even if he was old and feeble and on Earth-1 and didn't act at all like he did in All-Star Squadron!

AS a non-hispanic, I could relate to Vibe.

Quis, you dress like Vibe even today don't you?

"Look what ya'll did to Detroit! That USED to be a NICE place to live!"
--Cicily Tyson (speaking to Garrett Morris) on SNL

I never really warmed to Vibe, Gypsy and Vixen back then, but I did really like Steel. Didn't much enjoy the love triangle between Vixen, Zatanna and that older guy who ran the factory. Wasn't really feeling Aquaman at the time, either... he was kind of a jerk. I kinda wasn't feeling the artwork, either.

Hmmmm... so yeah, I liked Steel, but that was about it

With all my current fic projects involving the DCU (7 DCUs, actually), I've been working my way through tons of vintage (and not-so-vintage) DC comics, but especially the various incarnations of the Justice League.

Here's where I currently stand:

Gardner Fox (JLoA v.1 #1-66...I think (?)) - Not the finest Fox/Schwartz collaborations by any stretch. That most of Fox's scripts were drawn by Mike ("Batman looks like he enjoys doughnuts a little too much") Sekowsky doesn't help. The JLoA/JSoA team-ups definitely do hold up better than most of the other stories from this era, though I've also always had a sentimental spot for the original Queen Bee, finding her surprisingly sexy and assertive by early-mid 1960s standards, even if she is "evil." The final Fox-scripted JLA/JSA team-up, which introduces the new Red Tornado, is a turning point in more than one way, but the main one will always be that it marked the beginning of a 12-year-plus tenure for Dick Dillin (an artist as underrated as Sekowsky was overrated, IMHO.)

Dick Dillin (JLoA v.1 #65-180) - He was more than just the only consistent factor in the Bronze Age JLoA. Dillin, like many artists of his generation (born 1931), often performed above and beyond the call of duty, without any pretentions to being an artiste, just a good, honest craftsman. I wish I could say that his art almost always carried the lesser scripts, those of such questionable quality that they lack even camp value, but I'd be lying. The Dillin JLA is wildly inconsistent story-wise -- Fox's first successor, Denny O'Neil, figured out quickly that this book wasn't his thing, but at least he did some nice work with Dinah & Ollie before he left. There was a revolving door of JLA writers for far too long after that, to no one's gain.

Really, the first truly excellent issue of JLA, in my opinion, is #100, which is Len Wein's first JLoA script, making him the first writer to truly shine on the JLoA(and, like Dillin, he remains a perennially underrated creator.) Wein arrived just a few issues before Dick Giordano took over as Dillin's inker, which also coincided with Dillin having fully processed DC's then-new, Neal Adams-inspired "house style."

So JLoA 100-111 (7 Soldiers of Victory, Elongated Man joins, Red Tornado meets Kathy Sutton, Freedom Fighters, Christmas story, Libra plus Injustice League, return of Amazo) are consistently delightful, and whether the individual reader takes them as superior kitsch or as accidental art, they just plain *work* on every level (they also, IMHO, were far more deserving of a deluxe hardcover collection than the George Perez/Gerry Conway Era, and I hope they do get that treatment someday.)

Wein's final trio of JLoA issues are something of a comedown, with even the JLA/JSA team-up (the one that brings back Sandy the Golden Boy) not quite jelling, so in hindsight he left at just about the right time.

After that...um...there was *another* round of revolving-door writers, including Gerry Conway, who took over full-time eventually. But one year before that happened, the writer was Steve Englehart, whose dozen issues (he committed to only one year at DC, because he was eager to get into writing his first prose novel, "The Point Man") are an interesting but ultimately frustrating era. DC in general seemed to be floundering circa 1975-1978, and Englehart's efforts at "Avenger-izing" the JLA only gave us one stone cold classic (140-141, the secret origin of the Manhunters), and a mixed assortment of Bronze Age curios; also, Dillin's art began to decline around this time, and while it was never truly bad, something had definitely been lost, whether it was through having to crank out 34 pages of story a month for almost 2 years in a row, or just plain boredom now that he was going into his second decade on this book.)

Gerry Conway to the bitter end - Conway is probably more beloved for his long JLA run than for anything else he ever did, even arguably his first Spider-Man run (the latter was very controversial in its time.) But my cold, hard, objective opinion is that he kept taking two steps back for every one step forward. Month-in, month-out consistency was *not* the order of the day, not even when Wein came back to edit the book for a while, nor when Perez replaced Dillin after the veteran's untimely passing in 1980.

Yeah, Conway JLA...there's issue 200, an indisputable classic-of-classics, and...uh...Zatanna's quest for her mother was pretty good (tellingly, it was also the last arc Schwartz edited before he shed almost all his series except the Superman books.) And...um...TBH, I'm having trouble right now remembering the basic details of the other stuff, even the Perez issues. Oh, yeah, the JLA/JSA/New Gods team-up, that's decent enough (I'm not in awe of it the way I used to be, anymore, though.)

Conway was actually supposed to permanently leave the JLA after the Atom-in-the-Microscopic-Universe arc (ending with 232, I think?), but for reasons he honestly doesn't recall, he ended up back at the helm of JLA, with a new editor, Alan Gold, whom I think deserves the lion's share of the blame for what I consider the general awfulness of JLoA v.1's final few years (Conway certainly seems to feel that way, though at least he's enough of a gentleman not to mention Alan Gold by name.) The beast-people arc, the Despero-on-cosmic-steroids arc, even some of the JL Detroit stuff, they all have their fans, but, meaning no disrespect, I'm simply not among them. Out not with a bang, then, but a whimper.

1987 and beyond

JLI...well, I don't hate it anymore, but it's still not my cup of Joy-Juice either. Nor do I have time for much of the post-funniness stories over the next few years. Tellingly, among the few issues from the 1987-1995 "JL Franchise" that I genuinely like are JL Task Force #7-8, a gender-playful little tale that was way ahead of its time...and was written by my beloved Peter Allen David (who also dialogued the JL Secret Origins retcon issue over Keith Giffen's plot: "I feel like such a sap!") So basically, some writers have senses of humor that click with me, and some don't.

Morrison...overrated, let's not linger on that. Waid, disappointing, let's not linger on that either. Kelly, in some ways the Conway of his time, frustratingly erratic but sometimes brilliant, never more so than with the *truly epic* Obsidian Age arc. Post-Kelly/Pre-Infinite Crisis...pretty darn near the bottom of the barrel, all around, even from the writers who had done good work elsewhere. Again, the editor can make or break it, and in this case the editor was the notorious Mike Carlin (who had replaced the estimable Dan Raspler, whose 2004 firing I consider the second-worst decision made by the DC Brain Trust of that time, the absolute worst in my mind being the way the nickel-and-dimed Peter David until he threw up his hands and signed a Marvel-exclusive contract.)

Post-Infinite Crisis...no, sorry, life's too short.

Meltzer's stuff was overrated, McDuffie I felt was too stifled from the editors, and Robinson's is TRASH.

I kind of like the Morrison revival, especially because he delve into what made each member of the team unique. I think he framed his stories that each member was kind of like a member of the Greek Pantheon, that each had it's own special place. I read most of the stuff in the library in graphic novel format though.

I do wish DC's current comic books were as good as the TV shows and video games. I love the JLA, but all the reboots make it difficult for one to want to read.

Also, in regards to your question about Wonder Woman, don't go near Geoff Johns' run on Justice League.

He puts Wonder Woman in a position where her relationship with Superman is meant to "humanize" her. She comes across as cold and unapologetic about how much of a "warrior" she is, claiming the reason she doesn't have as many bad guys as Batman and Superman is because she deals with them permanently.

Also he ruins Cheetah's backstory by turning all the previous users of the name as fake identities carried by the Modern Age version, Barbara Ann Minerva.

Johns seems to really hate Wonder Woman.

FL to the rescue. In the interim since my last post in this thread, I worked up a first draft of what I'd put into a "Best of the JLoA v.1" trade collection. I set myself some rules and limitations, namely that there had to be at least one issue from every era of v.1, and that no story could exceed 2 issues (and I definitely bent those rules a couple times, as you'll see below.)

Without further ado, in reverse chronological order:

JLoA 200, by Gerry Conway, George Perez, and Brett Breeding, with guest artists Pat Broderick, Jim Aparo, Carmine Infantino, Dick Giordano, Gil Kane, Brian Bolland, and Joe Kubert. At 72 pages, this is longer than three standard-sized issues put together, but there was no way I was not going to include this one. I just re-read it a couple hours ago, and it still shines.

JLoA 140-141, by Steve Englehart, Dick Dillin, and Frank McLaughlin. This one actually comes in at a whopping 78 pages, because the Englehart issues, and the early Conway issues, had 34 story pages each, double the standard 17-page length of the mid-late 1970s. But it is not only Englehart's best JLoA story, it's also Dick Dillin's last hurrah before his artistic decline, and it inspired a seminal episode of the Justice League cartoon, with John Stewart in Hal Jordan's place as the Green Lantern targeted by the Manhunters.

JLoA 107-108, by Len Wein, Dick Dillin, and Dick Giordano. Choosing just one Wein JLoA story was excruciatingly difficult. In the end, the one with the JLA/JSA/Freedom Fighters team-up just barely edged out the Libra/Injustice League battle (issue 111), with a close third being the 7 Soldiers of Victory saga, but that one is 3 issues (100-102), and it's mostly inked by Joe Giella, who was no Dick Giordano by any stretch. And, to reiterate, I think that 100-112 (not 100-111 as I said previously) should all get the deluxe hardcover "DC Comics Classics Library" treatment.

JLoA 29, by Gardner Fox, Mike Sekowsky, and Bernard Sachs. I shocked myself by choosing this one over any of the Fox-scripted JLA/JSA team-ups. I just figured that since the JLA/JSA team-ups were already represented by 107-108, and that the original Queen Bee was a potentially classic villainess who never lived up to the promise of her first appearance (and, IMHO, the re-imaginings of the Queen Bee during the JLI and the Morrison eras were travesties.)

As for Morrison's JLA run, all I can say is that I think his Batman came off like a smug, know-it-all jerk, I think artist Howard Porter was woefully inadequate, especially on Morrison's last arc, and that, overall, it came off as the very worst of the Gardner Fox era, given a glossy new paint job and injected with widescreen-treatment steroids, which combine to make it seem terribly dated and shallow, moreso IMO than most of the JLA eras that came before and after. But that's just me.

I find that what I liked best about the JLI era are the characters and crazy funny dialogue, but not really the plots.

Morrison, I've said it before, he has some interesting ideas. But sometimes it feels like he is being weird just to be weird.

The thing I miss and loved most about the JLA was the yearly get-togethers with the JSA!

I hear you, Pov.

What I thought was the coolest thing about that was how the creators'd find a different way each year to make the team-up a little bit different from the last.

I'd started a longish response to this. but in summary, no matter how poor I thought some of the old JLAs were, they were readable. I'd be happy to never have to read the creators in their own comic, General Glory or Rutland Vermont carnivals.

But as forgettable as Mind Grabber Kid was or that alien with his pet alien dog, or the Dirty Half Dozen, I never put them down in pretty much disgust.

That's what I did with Robinson's JLA, and McDuffie's, and a number of others. All of whom are far more recent writers to the comic.

So it occurred to me recently -- the DC brain trust during the early Silver Age (mainly Schwartz and Liebowitz, I assume) got it wrong with the JLA from the start, in the sense that a superhero team book should not be a monthly ongoing, but rather a giant-sized special released annually. Particularly when it's the publisher's most powerful-and/or-popular characters in one book. As opposed to the Avengers, which didn't really jell until it began to focus on B-and-C-Listers with great ensemble chemistry, but unable or unlikely to carry books of their own.

Perhaps, with the market still so shaky at the time, DC might have thought that a JLA annual would have been too radical a move to succeed, especially with monthly comics already on the verge of going up in price from 10 c to 12 c?



To each their own. I disagree, but I respect your opinion, Thoth. It appears to me that you and I are exact opposites in the way we each view the JLA versus the Avengers. And that's actually a very cool thing! It's exactly what message boards need!

Also, I do think it's very telling that, as poorly executed as a lot of the early JLA stories are, at least the ideas are fresh. The more recent runs, whatever their relative weaknesses and strengths, not so much.

Interestingly, no monthly JLA series might've meant no Fantastic Four, and thus no Marvel Age of Comics...

Weirdly, I reread some of those early JLA issues recently, and they were a bit better than I remember them being.

Lately, I've been wondering if that might have been a good thing to happen (or not happen, as it were.) And I'm saying that as someone whose favorite superhero comics were published by Marvel between 1987 and 1994!



Yeah, but I still think Gardner Fox's Silver Age superhero work couldn't hold a candle to John Broome's Silver Age superhero work. They rotated as writers on "Green Lantern" and "Flash," and most of the coolest stuff was Broome's. People wonder why "Atom" didn't have the same impact even though Gil Kane did some of his best 60s art on it. It's because "Atom" was written entirely by Fox, just like with "JLA." And when Fox phoned it in, brother, he phoned it in!

It is a cool thing! Except I think we do both like the original JLA stories over the later ones. We might not agree on *which* early ones, but they must all be better than the later ones. I agree with Sarky's view that Meltzer got a ridiculous amount of hype considering the pedestrian plots with gaping holes in them; McDuffie was torpedoed repeatedly from editorial resulting in a total mess and Robinson torpedoed the entire book all by himself. I still can't read any of his newer work.

We agree on #200 too!

I read an early issue of Avengers recently and the bickering is off the scale. It's a living thing that wanders constantly around the mansion causing fights. Words don't do the tension justice really.

Yes, indeed. Cheers, my friend!



Oh, I've come to consider that one of the single greatest superhero comic books ever published! I still think that if JLA had been yearly instead of monthly, *every* issue would have been that good!



LOL Avengers, and Marvel in general, is definitely an acquired taste. That said, the "processed food" live-action version of Marvel that has been raking in billions in cash is a very mixed bag, and I'm not optimistic for its future.

The absence of Hawkwoman (because *that* was the issue they wanted to have continuity in ) is the teeny flaw that shows the rest of it as being nearly perfect.



Oh, I'm not saying it as a criticism, just as an observation. I'd seen some Kirby artwork on Mister Miracle and read some background. But the character virtually leaping out the page at me came as a big, pleasant surprise. It's the same sort of thing with those Avengers issues. I'd read the history and seen the character entries. But it really doesn't prepare me for the dynamism and tension in all the panels. I'm used to the more remote/ alien science fiction concepts and plot construction of the likes of JLA, rather than space being taken up for inter-personal conflicts in Marvel. Early Doom Patrol was as close as I'd read to that in DC.

While the JLA/JSA annual encounters stand out as the Events of a cover look through, there's a lot of good stories in between. Without those, you might not have had room to get readers to really take to the B-Listers. But on the other hand, that would have meant no JLD, which would have pleased some. Also no Morrison revival of Big Guns, as they might never have gone away. But not having the issues out monthly would have meant that a lot of kids wouldn't have picked up the book at all. A lot of us might not be here to post about it.


Without Marvel...
A later resurgence in 1950's Monster comics as the closest precursor to that Marvel feel.
DC's falling sales resulting in a bigger push into genres such as spies/ espionage
I agree that Charlton Action Heroes or the Archie line might have gone on longer as solid competition.

Hawkwoman not showing up in JLA 200 always botheredme, too.

Point taken about Hawkwoman's absence from #200. I suppose since I've never cared that much about the Hawk-People, that's why it didn't even register until you guys gave me the heads-up.



Yes, and according to the recent book about the DC vs Marvel rivalry, "Slugfest," Arnold Drake was impressed with some aspects of Marvel and deliberately emulated them with DP.

And maybe it's because I was a "Fearless Face-Fronter" for almost 30 consecutive years, but I've wearied of the in-your-face approach. You mention Kirby. These days, anything of his I see -- no matter what publisher it's from, or whether or not it's entirely his work -- gives me a headache, while at the same time I've really been getting into some of the Silver Age DC stuff, especially Green Lantern and Flash circa '62-'65.



Again, I think it's a matter of personal taste because I don't see most of the "interim" old-school JLA stories as being good at all, especially during the Fox/Sekowsky era. Some of those scripts strike me as so inanely infantile that even the Hanna-Barbera producers would have laughed at them and thrown them in the dustbin. As for the B-Listers, I think Wein and Conway and O'Neil and even Engelhart managed a lot of nice character moments, but in the end it just feels...synthetic to me, like no matter how good they emulated the Avengers, it still just isn't really the JLA.



The Morrison era is a particular thorn in my side, as I have noted over the years (in such a way that even I now realize borders on ad nauseum.) But, yeah, if the Big Guns had never gone away, there wouldn't have been any reason to re-hash the Fox/Sekowsky era which I find so overrated in the first place.



Here I have to semi-reluctantly concur. It probably would have been a concept too far ahead of its time (though arguably, it anticipated the 100 Page Specials of the 1970s, during which JLA went bi-monthly; this also coincides with the Wein/Dillin era I am so fond of.)

I guess, in the end, I just see so much wasted ink & paper on JLA, since what is arguably the core concept (Big Guns) limits the amount of stories that can be told. How does a creative team come up with such grandiosity month-in-month-out? I don't think it has ever been done -- except for sporadic stretches of a several consistently good issues -- and I don't think it will ever be done. But maybe that's just me.

Well I dropped the current run of JLA ... It was trying to be ambitious in a way that - to me - wasn't very interesting and really confused.

I think this goes to Ann's point about grandiosity and the challenges creative teams face in building the JLA.

I came to the JLA during the satellite era - with the JLA/JSA crossover murder mystery centering on Mr. Terrific (who in my mind must have been HUGE to have so many heroes seeking out his murderer - a rude surprise when I later tried to find stories with Mr. Terrific in it). The JLA/JSA crossovers have, for me, held up mostly pretty well - even if it's just the nice character interactions between the generations of heroes.

[I now look back and realize that this "annual" crossover occupied at some points 1/4 of the year of stories.]


For me, I've enjoyed parts of Morrison, Waid, Wein and even Kelly (I still reread the Obsidian Age). I would have loved to see what Dwayne MacDuffie would have produced if his run hadn't been so plagued by editorial edicts. I love the Justice League when it's got more than the Big Guns, where the JLA is connected to the previous generation of heroes, where the villains get mixed up (so it's not always Wonder Woman vs. Cheetah, for instance) and there are character moments that ring true.