Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Legion November 2007 Solicitations and Images...SPOILERS!

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. Even though "my" Legion ended much later - with Zero Hour - and I really loved the TMK era, I think it is important to bring back a Legion with a "history" - an origin, to begin with - where all those wonderful characters actually have a biography. The current Legionnaires are just empty hulls in a spandex suit, and I hate that.

So I hope Johns and Co. are saving as much of the old continuity as possible - my beloved TMK run probably has to stay in eternal comic book limbo (or a lesser known parallel universe of the Multiverse) - and will be adding new powerful stories to the classic Legion Lore.

I don't pretend to know anything about DC's plans for the Legion and I'm thoroughly skeptical about the current rumors, but I do believe one thing: DC wants the LSH to be a success again and, to that end, they're investing a lot in it this year and next. There is absolutely no profit to be gained from decimating the 3boot Legion, especially in a newly created multiverse. Quite the opposite -- it would befoul the Anniversary celebration and inflame fan divisions at the worst possible time. Only the haters would be happy, but I hardly think DC wants to reward that segment of Legion fandom. I agree there'll be curveballs in the coming months, but I get the feeling DC is finally done throwing beanballs at us.

As to the fate of the recently deceased Flash -- Didio dropped a grenade at one of the recent panels, though nobody's sure if he was intentionally misdirecting or not:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">He teased it was Bart in the lightning rod.</span></span>

Time will tell, but I won't paint it black before I see the true colors.

I like that spoiler.

And yeah, count me as a fan who really wants to see the 3boot Legion continue. The whole L* concept feels fresher to me than it has in a long time. Going back to the "old" Legion would be stale. I'm a big enough fan of the LSH that I'll stick with it even if they did "backtrack," but it's very much not my preference.

But then, I became a fan late in the TMK run and thus have little sentiment for the 80's series (although I now think it's superior to the whole 5YG).

Superboy: No, you’ve got me wrong.

First, I don’t think there is a Real Legion. They’re all the Real Legion.

My argument is basically that DC is calling the Lightning Saga Legion ‘original’, when it isn’t. I don’t mind that it isn’t original; I just mind that DC seems to be trying to snow us on this point.

I do want two versions of the Legion. In fact, I want more than that. I want all of them: original, reboot, threeboot, SW6, animated, whatever else you want to throw in there. Why not? There’s no reason for them all not to exist someplace.

I think you’re underrating more recent versions of the Legion; there’s some good stuff there. If you don’t like it, you don’t like it, of course, but it’s better than you say it is.

As for the Lightning Saga Legion. I know a lot of people miss the Levitz-era Legion, but the Lightning Saga Legion has not yet been proven to be the same as the Levitz-era Legion. Some may assume that it is, but there’s not a lot of evidence to actually support that. Go back and look at the comics they’ve appeared in: we really don’t know a lot about this crowd or what DC’s going to do with them. And if all you want is the Levitz-era Legion back, I think there’s a good chance you’re not going to get it.

I don't see any thing to indicate that the 5YG Legion can't exist in the new multiverse...except for maybe the first 4 issues of it...


It was a Legion in which Superboy and Mon-El didn't exist as members basically(I know Mon was in it, but he was a Superboy replacement, not Mon-El)....and therefore could be on just about any Earth...


We know there are going to be 3 Legions in the this Upcoming Saga...


W&K is obviously one of them..
The LS Legion is obviously another...


So that leaves basically two unaccounted for Legions...the Archie and TMK Legion. Incidentally...it wouldn't be too hard to make the Archie Legion and the TMK Legion the same time line with just a couple of minor tweaks. The Mon-El in both is similar...they both have Laurel Gand...

Might have to change Jeckie back from being a snake of course...

Of course, it could always be an evil version of the Legion...that's the third Legion.


The thing is...the TMK and Archie Legions could exist on any Earth...it just doesn't make much sense to tie them into the Earth which the main Superman is on...


I like a lot of what TMK did...I just didn't like the foundation of the series.


I hope some of what they did makes it into other versions of the Legion...in particular their MatterEaterLad.

I've read in interviews that they'd have prefered to have Superboy himself...DC Editorial policy at the time wouldn't allow for it...so they tried to replace him with Mon hoping people would accept it, since Mon was a longtime Legionaire..but it basically just made some people mad...not to mention altered Mon-El into a near unrecognizable form.

To tell you the truth...


If there are going to be multiple earths there simply have to be multiple Legions.....and there were always multiple Legions Pre-Crisis as well...


It actually doesn't make much sense for there to only be one Legion in the DC multiverse..


52 Earths...I doubt DC has plans for the 31st century on all of them...not including the Legion.


The Legion in SuperBoy's Legion probably exists on one of them.
TMK
W&K
Archie
All the Pre Crisis Versions...
The Animated Legion


And coolest of all...

We know there is an evil Legion out there somewhere.

That type of story has really yet to be told for the Legion...at least in the era of modern comics and being a major arc.

52 Earths is a lot of Earths. Plenty of 31st Centuries to go around....

Fair enough.


From DC's POV...if you want to get the original Legion back...there is no way to do it...but if you want those fans and concept back...this is about as close at it gets.


There were always minor retcons done to the Legion, even Pre Crisis.

To me this Legion could have an identical history up to the events of Crisis...I mean we just might have never known StarBoy was schitzophrenic...

It could be the 31st century equivlant of a cold.

To me the original Legion did not continue until 1994 or whenever...it ended with the Byrne revamp of Superman...the Pocket Universe story could not cover all the holes created...


They all had some nice tweaks, tweaks I wouldn't mind incorporated into the continuity of any and all future Legions.


But as you can tell by my chosen nic...conceptually...I have certain requirements...

Additionally...there were a lot of changes made that didn't need to be made...

EG: Jeckie = Snake...

Why?


To tell you the truth...I wasn't that crazy about the Baxter run...

For me the Levitz Legion peaked with the GDS Saga...but that's just my opinion...

I am in favor of any retcon that gives Saturn Girl the Farah Fawcett hair and Pink Bikini back btw...


I am kind nervous about this right now...but I do agree with this sentiment...

I seriously hope that they don't turn this Legion into the Dark Future one...because I've seen it done...even if I had liked it, I wouldn't have wanted to see it done again...

Hopefully they'll do that one on a different earth...and if it sells...more power to em. If it sells better than the the attempt at the Original Legion and that fails...so be it...at least that will be the will of Legion Fans and not that of a single boneheaded Legion hating creator.


My major point is I don't want a reimagining of stories already told in the regular continuity...

I don't really enjoy the endless cycle of reintroductions, and inane and unneeded creator tweaks to established and beloved characters, just done for the sake of change...I've read that stuff before. I've grown very impatient with it...even fans that came aboard for the first time with the post crisis versions are getting tired of it...

Yes, but you're still not with me. I'm not saying, "This Legion isn't original. Give me the original Legion!" I'm saying, "This Legion isn't original. Stop saying that it is!" There is a difference.

(Having said that, I would love to see the original Legion back in comics. I'd like DC to pick right up from the 'End of an Era' arc in '93 or '94 or whenever it was, with the original Legion and SW6 Legion standing dazed around the Time Beacon saying, "Huh. That was weird," and then the story goes on from there. And there's no reason why it can't be done, on some other Earth of the multiverse. There's no reason it can't be done. But that doesn't happen to be what I'm asking for in the discussion about the Lightning Saga Legion.)

No, I don't want that either. Instead of dwelling on the past, let's have good, new, stories that are informed by the past but not determined by the past.

Re: Lightning Saga Legion. I honestly think there is a possibility they are from different times in Legion PC history.

Certainly seemed like it, since they had both Karate-Val and Sensor-Jeckie as members. The Wildfire and Dawnstar from the Lightning Saga grouping seemed to have some issues as well, as did the Star Boy / Dreamy pairing, which made it seem all the more like they were pulled from different places. (Both Wildfire and Thom seemed to think that they were still 'with' Dawnstar and Dreamy, respectively, while both Dawnstar and Dreamy seemed to have very different opinions.)

This would certainly be the most perfect solution for us continuity-focussed "oldtimers"

I really would love to get back all of Legion Lore. But to me, the Lightning Saga Legion seems to bring back at least a huge part of that Lore, even though continuity challenged - whatever. As long as the Adventure era , the 70s and most of the Levitz era are being reestablished, I will take this new/old incarnation over the current Legion anytime. The question if those guys are the same - or just very similar - characters like back in 1987 seems not that important to me...

Well I am pretty excited.

The ACTION arc looks to be great fun. Garth is the new HUBBA Legionnaire between his 'toonverse goatee'd look and this sleeveless outfit. Yummers!

This version of LSH hasn't been really big on having covers match interiors-- even the slightest bit-- so I'm not all excited about Dreamy on the cover yet.

I'm going to buy that LSV tpb despite having those issues. It will be my first-ever LSH tpb.

I'm going to get the Super-Sons tpb too. I had (have)some of those original issues way back when and they are shabby from my kidly re-reading. I remember thinking those tales were great fun.

And I am saying if the Adventure run happened in this Legion's history?

It is the original, and so far that is what DC is indicating


And I am sorry...but the Tom and Mary Bierbaum Legion was in no way the original Legion of Superheroes. The end of the Levitz run was not even the original Legion of Superheroes.

When Superboy was moved to a Pocket Universe, that was the end of the original Legion of Superheroes, because that solution was not a solution at all. It fixed nothing. That was when the Legion became a depressing mess. That was when solutions started being attempted that only made the problem worse.

Tom and Mary Bierbaum? They never got a chance to write the original Legion, and I am sure if you read some interviews with them you will arrive at this same conclusion. What they wrote, by their own words, was an attempt to fix the continuity of the original Legion.

It did not correct the numerous holes created by the Byrne revamp.

The original Legion met Superman, and he was also around when they went back and recruited Kara, who incidentally was not accounted for in the Pocket Universe solution.

Kara, you know, the impossible love of Braniac 5.

Sorry the Tom and Mary Bierbaum Legion was not the original Legion. The original Legion ended with Baxter #38, that one is easy to find for reference, it's the only issue of the Baxter Legion, and all other Legions since, that is worth more than a dollar. That can actually be sold to someone because they are willing to pay to read it.

If the Adventure era stories happened, if Bates Cockrum happened, if Pre Crisis Levitz happened, this Legion is the original.

The original Legion did not end in 1993. It ended in 1986 or 87. If Streaky does not fit, you must admit.

All of what you say is why the "Lightning Saga" Legion isn't and will never be the "original" Legion. Especially if the modern Superman was a member. The Original™ Legion had Superboy, Insect Queen, Elastic Lad, Pete Ross, the original (non-skanky) Supergirl, the Super-Pets, etc. etc.

The "Lightning Saga" Legion is another re-imagining of the concept just like Waid and Barry's Legion and just like the Reboot/DnA Legion. The only thing they had going for them that made them superior to the other re-imagined Legions was the costumes (for me anyway).

And now they lack that as well. Anyway, I love all Legions, so I'm sure I find something redeeming in the LS Legion.

But I do miss and wish I could read stories involving the Pre-Crisis Legion again (at any point in their history).

I don't see why putting Superboy into the Pocket universe changed the Legion from original to no longer original.

The continuity stayed the same, they just explained who this Superboy was that no longer existed in the then proper DCU after Byrne. it may be a lame stunt (even though i thought the whole idea was not that bad), but it did not change anything about the dozens of years of Legion Lore - all still existed, only the time travels had been retconned into having happened in another dimension.

The first "real" reboot happened when Giffen had to write Superboy out of existance alltogether (what whatever dull reasons that was - TPTB seem to have had a bad year or so) in v4 #4-6. Still this changed Legion felt very real to me and the stories were master SciFi stuff, stuff that you can reread more than just once and it still excites you.

In no way can this be compared to Zero Hour wiping out everything everything EVERYTHING that ever happened and substituting it with a (then popular) kiddie book. Try to reread that stuff - makes you cringe...

As for Lightning Saga Legion - considering that they SEEM to resemble the characters from the original run implicates that their biographies and the history of their team will resemble the old continuity as well. We have no data yet if this implication is true. But I am full of hope.

That's not really true at all. I don't think you realize how intrinsically the Superman mythology was tied into the Legion mythos...

Let me just put it this way, the Pocket Universe Superboy never grew up to be Superman.

That little insignifigant detail totally destroys the personal histories of Brainiac 5, Karate Kid and Mon-El. As well as dozens of Legion crossovers with Superman. Not Superboy, Superman.

It also eliminates honorary Legionaires like Jimmy Olsen, real Legionaires like Supergirl. It eliminates the Legion of Super-Pets.


I mean call it stupid or whatever you want, but the Superpets saved the entire Legion once upon a time. The Legion traveled back in time to visit Jimmy Olsen weekly in the Sixties, and SuperGirl and Superman.

Karate Kid's series took place in Superman's time, not Superboy's.

Mon-El watched Superboy grow into Superman and participated in several Superman stories via the Phantom Zone.

Brainiac 5 was named after Brainiac. The Pre Crisis Superman villian Brainiac, who was way different than his post crisis counterpart. Brainiac 5 was also in love with Supergirl and all of a sudden she didn't exist any more.


And you know, Supergirl in addition to saving the Legion on more than one occassion, also played a pretty prominent role in the Great Darkness Saga. Arguably the greatest story in Legion history.

Giffen and the Bierbaum's were not the ones that screwed the Legion up, they just tried to fix it and their solution just happened to be one that came off as being pretty insensitive to a huge selection of Legion Fans. It wasn't so much that they screwed it up, as it was they poured a nice heaping portion of salt in Legion fan wounds by eliminating even the memories of the original Legion. But the continuity was already ruined beyond repair.

And the cherry on top of all of this was that about 6 months after the Legion's history was ruined, by Byrne making Superman "unique" again, Byrne himself went into that same Pocket Universe to create his own Supergirl. Byrne is such an unintelligent man. If he couldn't draw he probably couldn't hold a job sacking groceries. He has the intellect of a stump.

And how do you know it doesn't still have those things? Aside from skanky SuperGirl I mean. And just because she hasn't been shown to have a history with this Legion yet doesn't mean she won't...time paradoxes you know, she could still wind up in the LS Legion before Superman was a member of it...

Jimmy Olsen is looking awfully SilverAgey these days...so is Krypto. Did you notice Superman saying he had Krypto as a boy last month?

People can bash Didio, but he's not afraid of the Silver Age concepts, he quite seems to like them in fact. I am not convinced that anything is written out yet.

I don't think DC is indicating that. Not consistently. They're trying to tell us that they're indicating that... but what's on the comic page doesn't quite match it.
Anyway, the Adventure run also happened (with changes, I grant you) for the post-Crisis and Five Years Later Legions.
I understand that position. It doesn't happen to be a position I take, but I respect it. However, those versions of the Legion have some qualities that I think gives them a stronger case for being called 'original' than the Lightning Saga Legion has:
1. The creators of the post-Crisis and 5YL Legions were pretty clearly trying to preserve as much past original Legion continuity as they could in the face of unreasonable editorial demands. I am willing to meet them halfway and say that their Legion versions were as close to 'original' as they could get. The creators of the Lightning Saga Legion put in all kinds of changes, some of them extending back before Crisis on Infinite Earths, that suggested that their Legion was not quite the original Legion. I'd be willing to meet them halfway, but I don't know what to meet them halfway on. Are they the same, or different?
2. Before the post-Crisis stories and 5YL Legion stories were created, there were no existing accounts of what the Legion got up to post-Crisis to contradict. After they were created, that wasn't true anymore, and now the Lightning Saga Legion stories necessarily contradict the post-Crisis and 5YL stories. Basically, Levitz and Giffen and the Bierbaums got there first, and therefore have a better claim at the word 'original'.
3. The post-Crisis and 5YL stories followed seamlessly after the pre-Crisis stories. The Lightning Saga Legion was introduced years and years after all the rest of it.
No, we understand it. It's just that we care about details like that a lot more than DC does. I figure, for any continuity change, if DC gets the broad strokes right and the intent is clear, then you don't sweat the details. But even with that attitude, I still can't swallow the Lightning Saga Legion as original...

The Pocket Universe is dust, so it's all moot, as are most Legion stories published after Crisis through Zero Hour, I imagine, unless they're spun off onto another Earth.

I detest what Byrne and TMK did, too, but the way I see it, Geoff Johns is doing much the same in the Lightning Saga by hijacking the originals to certify his newest Legion reboot. New Earth Hybrid Superman is to Mr. Johns what Pocket Universe Superboy was to Byrne and what Valor was to the TMK -- a square peg shoved into a round hole. It will never fit, no matter how they force it, imo.

I began reading the Legion before dirt was invented and still cherish the originals, but I'm sick to death of lies. The 3boots are not those guys, but that's perfectly okay with me because, being separate and distinct, they don't stink up the original characters and history. Unfortunately, based on what I've seen of the LS Legion, (their Karate Kid, Una, Starman, Wildfire and the old, ugly founders on the latest Action cover) I fear that's exactly what they're poised to do.

The thing is if they really wanted the originals they have the multiverse again. They could have just stuck the entire pre-crisis Earth-1 out there instead of sticking their heads back into the retcon morass. If you look at what they've done with most of the other major multiverse world's that's more or less what they've done.

If they really wanted to have a young modern superman/boy interact with kids from the future they should use new stories and continuity to do it, not play the game of Adventure 247 is in with the following changes... Adventure 267 is out.... yadda yadda yadda...

So who was Brainy's girlfriend for the 25 years of the Lightning Saga's continuity??? How can it be the original if there was no Supergirl robot in hotpants.

Personally I think all of this is going to be brought back. Yes even Insect Queen(groan). I think the original non-skanky Supergirl is going to return as well. And it still won't be the "original" Legion but I don't think the original Legion has been seen since their first appearance.

I mean half those issues in Adventure Brainy was blue anyways. For every retcon in Legion history we lost more of the "original".

Plus, if DC says it's the "original" than it is IMO.

That's like saying, "if DC says that Batman first appeared in Action Comics #1, then he did".

What is and is not original doesn't depend on what DC says; it depends on what is and isn't in published comic books. DC may own the characters but it doesn't own the definition of the word 'original'.

Luckily, I don't need DC to tell me how to think or to form an opinion.

Tamper and Tromium and Matthew E are more articulate at this discussion than me. But, I just find it comical how people will bash the 3boot and praise the "Lightning Saga" in the same breath.

You guys took that bait too easily and too literally. *sigh*

I knew I was going to get a "dc doesn't tell me what to tink" but the Batman in Action comics was suprising.

I just think it's funny what people think what the "original" Legion is. We don't have an original Superman anymore or Wonder Woman, or Batman despite them appearing in all those comics.

I think everyone has their own opinion on what the "original" Legion is. So are they publishing Geoff John's original Legion? Ultra Jorge's? Nightcrawlers? (personally I am hoping for the EDE original Legion mini).

Don't have DC tell you what to think. But I won't let a fan with a Manifesto tell me what to think either. No offense Matthew.