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I liked it when Saturn Gil and Cosmic Boy were an item for awhile. They have a lot in common in their personality traits. Both are extremely dedicated to the LSH and see a lot of the same viewpoints.

A brief fling between Saturn Girl and Timber Wold might be interesting, just as a poke at the whole Jean Grey/Wolverine relationship.

And I'd like to see the flirtatious Sun Boy/Inferno from the Bierbaum days go with Dreamy for awhile. But they're really just using each other. But who' s using who??? (Whoa. Sounds like a Three's Company episode.)

I liked it when Saturn Gil and Cosmic Boy were an item for awhile. They have a lot in common in their personality traits. Both are extremely dedicated to the LSH and see a lot of the same viewpoints.

A brief fling between Saturn Girl and Timber Wold might be interesting, just as a poke at the whole Jean Grey/Wolverine relationship.

And I'd like to see the flirtatious Sun Boy/Inferno from the Bierbaum days go with Dreamy for awhile. But they're really just using each other. But who' s using who??? (Whoa. Sounds like a Three's Company episode.)

Steve, just read your message on you primarily posting on this thread. I posted this originally on the Steve Lightle return to the Legion thread:

Hey Steve. Count me in on having you return to the LSH.

I haven't collected the book since Live Wire was killed off. Since Keith Giffen's "Blade Runner" experiment w/ the LSH I have felt this book had begun to lose the qualities that made this series unique and special. The Bierbaums and Chris Sprouse slowly began to recapture it but when they left I felt the book began to go in a different direction again. Live Wire being killed off was the final straw for me and having Element Lad killed only pushed me away further. I don't even need to mention how I took it when Leviathan was killed.

I must stress that I'm not taking these "deaths" personally. I fully understand that these are fictional characters and that the writers have every right to write their stories. In my opinion though, these actions were done for the sake of writing a story and were not a natural progression. In fact, quite the opposite. I felt the death of Colossus in X-Men was similar to these situations and also out of character and unessesary from a storytelling perspective. Consiquently, that book lost a reader. I hope I made my point clear and if I didn't I apologize.

The recent Ra's Al Ghul storyline caught my eye however. And news that you will do some upcoming issues only makes me excited to collect LSH again. It was the story "The Fatal Five Who Twisted Time" by Cary Bates and Dave Cockrum that got me started in comics and as far as I'm concerned you drew the last LSH issues where they were true to their original conception.

I heartily applaud your return and anxiously await the publishing of your latest work. Now if only you could go over to Doom Patrol with Gary Martin again, life would be perfect.

No Watcher. I don't live in the past. I just know a good thing when I see it.

IP: Logged

I replied to this on the LegionPics list, but I don't think I made much sense (I hate the flu), and it's more appropriate here anyway sooo...

I agree with Shady about a Brin/Tasmia or an Imra/Querl pairing. They're just too much alike.

If the conflict between Umbra and Cham was for a reason other than xenophobia, then I'd like to see them together; I thought they had some good scenes together during Legion Lost. But I think the xenophobia is probably an insurmountable obsticle at this time.

I wouldn't mind seeing Brin and Vi get together. They're both avid fighters, and they're also both supportive types. However, they react to things differently. Brin lives by his instincts; Vi doesn't trust hers. She's an introvert; he's an extrovert. He's volitile; she's calm. I think it's a good ballance.

The only couple a see as set in stone are Tinya and Jo. If Sensor started walking, I might add Val and Jeckie to the list. They deserve a happier ending than they got the first time around.

I am still hoping for an Invisible Kid - Violet pairing, they would make a wonder Spy oriented couple. And Lightning Lass and Chameleon was such a surprising match in the early reboot that it should be given another look. For something a bit more unusual, how about Imra and Lar Gand? He certainly has the patience needed to work with her and both have earned the other's respect numerous times. Imra (with permission) could understand Lar in ways that only she has the ability and control to manage (via telepathically seeing his memories). Two strong people with troubled pasts, working together toward a better future.

I don't think ever gracious M'onel would be very attracted to Umbra's current edgy persona. And if he was able to tame it - then she wouldn't be as interesting a character. I think Steve's suggestion of Brin and Tasmia could work. Brin has enough of an edge to match her's but has demonstrated a strong loyal and caring side (with Tinya and baby Nah) as well. I'd love to see Lar with Lu this time around. They seem to have some kind of a bond (see their interaction in Legion World #1 as well as their mutual Ra's butt kicking session). It would be nice, post-boot, to finally see Lu's crush on Superboy-substitute M'onel reciprocated.

in the current continuity, I would have some serious reservations about M'Onel and Lu being together, simply because she considers him a god. That sort of worship doesn't really equate well to equal partners.

However, if you want a Superboy substitute, I know reaction to Kon-El has been pretty lukewarm around this board overall, but I thought there was some interesting chemistry between he and Lu during the brief SB-LoSH crossover and I've always liked the character. I relate to Kon-El in a wearing our hearts on our sleeve sort of way.

[in the current continuity, I would have some serious reservations about M'Onel and Lu being together, simply because she considers him a god. That sort of worship doesn't really equate well to equal partners.]

Michael - I know that was Lu's reaction to Lar in the beginning but I think she has come to terms with it and now sees him as humanized, while still appreciating his Valor legend. In any case, I like the idea of switching the couples around a bit post-boot so I'd be happy to see her with anyone but Chuck.

I'd like to see some couples switch around, too.
Just not the 'great loves'.
Somehow, those should stay intact and there really wasn't very many of them.

Jo and Tinya
Shady and Mon
Lydda and Rokk

Any other couples really have long term Legion romances, ones that crossed eras and minor boots before Zero Hour?

Garth was Proty, so I don't think Imra and he count ~ especially since he was dead and Proty revived before they had a romance.
Brainy and Kara only kissed.
Laurel ended up having a child with Rond.

Ayla was with Vi only after years with Brin.
I seem to remember Lightle saying something to the effect that he and Levitz certainly never intended the two of them to be a couple during their run on the Legion.
(I hope I'm remembering those comments correctly.)

I might add Val and Jeckie, except to this point, there IS no Jeckie.

I'm not usually a traditionalist, and I'd be interested in other combinations for those 6 people, if I had to.
I'd just like them to END UP with each other.

sigh
Shady

You know, I just realized... after all this time in the reboot, Lydda and Rokk STILL have not met.

Someone should really fix them up!

Shady said:
<< Ayla was with Vi only after years with Brin.
I seem to remember Lightle saying something to the effect that he and Levitz certainly never intended the two of them to be a couple during their run on the Legion. >>

I think that the attraction was the brainchild of a later creative team, but my memory isn't clear on that. The funny thing is that some fans credit my issues for laying the groundwork for the relationship. They cite a sisterly hug that I drew, suggesting that it was an expression of physical attraction. I suppose that any personal interpretation is valid, that certainly wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to show a real moment of human camaraderie. I probably would have been slow to embarrass Brin by having him lose his girl to another team mate. I always thought that Timber Wolf didn't get enough respect, in those days.

I do remember being invested in the idea that Vi should show more self confidence, and often tried to show her strength. It was other creators who interpreted that strength as masculine. Personally, I despise stereotypical interpretations. A strong woman should not be assumed to be a lesbian. In fact, I believe that stereotypes are generally uninteresting and are a lazy man's plot device.

I remember drawing one fun scene, in which a female hand snakes its way inside Sun Boy's tunic. Dirk automatically assumes that he is feeling the touch of Nura, but is surprised to find that the hand belongs to Vi. This girl was full of surprises, and certainly wasn't beyond an interest in the guys.

Like I have said before, Vi had a history of dating men, and I saw no reason why her growth in confidence should be interpreted as a masculine trend. I'd have preferred the introduction of new bisexual or homosexual characters, rather than changing the established sexual preference of existing characters. On the other hand,the suggestion that Chemical King and Invisible Kid were gay, seemed much more likely, as I don't recall seeing prior examples of their sexual behavior. I don't recall any inconsistencies with their previous characterizations.

Maybe it's just a matter of storytelling philosophy. I think that story and character developments should be organic and not contrived.

My opinion, for what it's worth.

Steve Lightle

Jafabian wrote:
<< I must stress that I'm not taking these "deaths" personally. I fully understand that these are fictional characters and that the writers have every right to write their stories. >>

I've got to say that I'm a little concerned about the high death rate of the Legion. I am glad, on the other hand, that there haven't been a lot of deaths in recent days.

I realize that the readers understand that these are fictional characters. Still, they have to seem real while you are reading about them, and you do form attachments to these fictional characters. If that were not true, then what would bring a person back for more adventures? If the readers don't care about the characters then why are they reading the books? If they aren't "real" to them, then why shouldn't readers jump ship each time that there is a change in creative staff?

When I was a kid, first starting to read comics, I heard about the death of Ferro Lad. It seemed unimaginable to me. How could a super-hero die? This just couldn't be. I had to seek out the issue, and find out if there was any truth to all of this. In doing this, I became invested in the character, and when I eventually found the Ferro Lad issues of Adventure Comics, I came to respect and admire this guy ... and Ferro Lad's death meant something.

Now that the superhero mortality rate is so high, do these deaths mean as much to readers? Are we becoming blase? Do we care as much? Are the characters caring as much? Ferro Lad was honored and mourned.

In our speculation about what character may die next, have we forgotten to mourn those who have fallen?

Has death just become a gimmick to sell more issues? Superman died didn't he? Hal Jordan died? Robin died ... and died ... and ... You know, maybe death is losing its sting.

If so, that's a sad thing.

Steve Lightle

Exactly.
The 'death' trend ruined the X-Men for me.
And DC's 'hit lists' for giant crossovers nauseates me.

Shady

The killing of a character as 'cutting edge' story telling is getting soooo old. It is also (IMO) LAZY story writing.

In the first 25-26 years of the Legion I count only 4 Legion Deaths (5 if you count Lightning Lad but they brought him back). They were mourned. They were honored. And they were remembered for their heroics. (If I missed someone please feel free to add them)

Ferro Lad
Invisible Kid
Chemical King
Karate Kid

In the last 16-17 years after Crisis and especially during v. 4 It seemed as if they kept trying to up the death count in each issue. It got to the point they felt that blowing up the moon and the EARTH were GOOD plot devices.

Why must there be such a high body count to be considered 'trendy' or 'relevant'?
The trend to kill off characters someone doesn't want to write with the thought... "someone else can figure out how to bring them back to life" is getting old too.

If you want 'realism' in comics this is about as far from it as you can get.

The Legionnaires who passed on (with the exception of Lightning Lad) remained dead. (yes there was that clone story ... but it wrapped up in one issue). Other writers were still able to write these characters in flashback or 'untold' stories that didn't diminish their sacrifice or weaken the stories of their deaths.


Sorry for the long meandering post...but this is a topic that has bothered me for years.

------------------
Better to have a mind open as a book than closed as a fist

I did like an earlier post where it was said a character should never be brought back from the dead, unless it's proven that they never died in the first place. Therefore, I still hold hope that things will be done right and our favorite Legionaires come back.

And dammit, I want Superboy back. But Streaky, Comet and Beppo can stay home. (Notice I didn't add Krypto????)

AMEN TO THAT BROTHER! Get this, one time Chris Claremont was asked about his replacing Cyclops with Angel after the death of Phoenix storyline, and why he got rid of him after less than a year, and his reply was that the character was "functionally redundant." That all he did was fly around. Geez, compare him to Wolverine or Nightcrawler. You could say the same thing.

Steve talks about Ferro Lad. At least Ferro Lad wasn't around long enough for the reader to show attachment to him and the Sun-Eater/Fatal Five storyline was a damn fine story.

Chris didn't kill the Angel.

He just felt he didn't enjoy using Warren in stories.
Every writer has that right and they all evercise it, chosing the individual line-ups they will use in their stories.

It would have been different if he'd killed Angel because he didn't like using him in stories.

DC does it all of the time, if the posts on the boards are to be believed and some of them are.

Hippolyta and Maxima were a travesty, especially Hippolyta.

Anyway, . . .
hrumph!

Shady

The Man From Cargg said:
<< I don't think ever gracious M'onel would be very attracted to Umbra's current edgy persona. And if he was able to tame it - then she wouldn't be as interesting a character. I think Steve's suggestion of Brin and Tasmia could work. Brin has enough of an edge to match her's but has demonstrated a strong loyal and caring side ... >>

I don't know why, but I can just see them as a team. as Shady pointed out, it might not be a perfectly stable relationship, but I could certainly see it as a passionate one. Who knows if it would last. Wolves have gotten a bad rep through the years, but aren't they supposed to be fiercely loyal too?

Of course, the next few issues of Legion may tell us a lot more about the temperament of this incarnation of Timber Wolf. It should be interesting.

Steve

I don't think that Vi's progression with being more outgoing or Masculian had to do with her being a Lesbian. In fact I would call her Bisexual rather than Lesbian. I think her being attracted to Ayala was well written and didn't sterotype a certain role. So she wasn't a "lipstick" lesbian.
Chemical King and Invisible Kid "hinted" at relationship was extremely well done in the Secret Orgin issue of Chemical King. Really what was hinted at was Chemical King being "attached" or in Love with Invisible Kid and Invisible Kid was protrayed as a good friend and role model. Now Element Lad should have been totally out! I would rather see legion characters turned gay then turned into a big snake with mechanical arms.

Espike said:
<< I would rather see legion characters turned gay then turned into a big snake with mechanical arms. >>

Well, when you put it like that ... LOL!

I really hope that DnA make Brin follow the wolf in temperment and habit, as closely as possible.

I love wolves.

They're one of the most wonderful animals in the animal kingdom, I think.
But, their loyalty to their mates is one of the reasons that I'm not sure a Brin/Tasmia relationship would work.

The alpha males seek an alpha type female, true, but she has to be able to function as a team player ~ not just for duty's sake, but for real and true.

Currently, Umbra has been shown to be a loner, who only participates in a team because she has no true alternative that doesn't lead to obscurity.
Her planet wanted her in the Legion, she wants to champion her planet again, so she complies.

You drew the cover for her origin issue, Steve.
That story made it very clear that she considers herself 'the One'.
She may make room for a husband, if he's powerful enough and helps her postition on Talok (and she loves him, if she's capable of loving anyone, at this time) but she won't want a 'team' or 'pack' around.

Unless she changes, of course.
We never know.


I think I'd prefer Shikari and Brin, if I haven't said that already.
She's a throw-back warrior, who's skills are very much like Brin's (other then the tracking/pathing abilities), only without the great strength.
She comes from a warm, team environment, as well.
She's definitely alpha, too.

I think she's perfect for him.

Maybe a competition between her and Tasmia would be interesting, as long as Kari wins!
Brin might like it, anyway.

Shady

I know Chris didn't kill Angel. But I understand your point.

My point was how I believed the reason of Angel being "functionally redundant" was actually his not being inspired to write the character. Were we to believe the "functionally redundant" statement then Hawkman wouldn't fly as a book. (Oww...I really typed that?)

But I completely agree with you on what you said on Maxima and Hipployta. All comics mangement executives say at one time or another that comics needs more female characters. When they allow stories to elimimante two who have had a large impact in the DCU it only shows just how indecisive they can be.

Question for you Steve: what is the due process for a script that introduces something that would have major impact in that comics' future issues? Example, let's say you take over the writing duties of LSH. You decide to right a wrong and bring back Leviathan, even though he looked pretty dead in his final issue. Where does the script go? Does it just go to the editor then back to the writer, or do other people look at the script? What if the editor says no and wants a rewrite? Does the writer have the right to appeal to any higher ups? Does it depend on who the writer is? (I bet Paul Levitz never had that problem!)

That raises an interesting question. Are there any Legionaires who aren't "alpha"?

After all, they were almost all chosen for the Legion because they were the best acording to their planetary standards. You could say being an alpha is a requirement for membership.

In today's CBG Express e-mail to its readers was an item of interest. Listed among those with upcoming bithdays: Steve Lightle, November 19.

Happy Birthday, Steve.

One day before my 47th.
So, Steve, here's my favorite poem about our shared sign--

If you should see a Scorpio,
Then, goodness gracious, say hello!
For if his presence you ignore,
He'll soon declare a private war;
However, if you're over-nice,
You'll pay an even bigger price;
For once he says your friend he'll be,
You'll never never an enemy!

--Frank Jacobs
MAD for Better or Verse