Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow The Origin of ...

Sniff sniff you mean she could have been my Kara...she could have lived if KHAN had given the ok...sniff sniff...oh why oh why couldnt we have her and superboy too.....it would have been so great....Steve I absolutely loved that costume....i thought it would have been great if it had been Kara...im glad that part of my inituition was right it was her. *and lol poor brainy...he wasnt wrong after all ...just the time trapper doing another revision of history that revised kara and put in projectra hehe.

all the respect i had for MS KHAN just went straight down the drain. i always wondered how someone as gifted as PAUL LEVITZ, who wrote one hell of a soap opera with LOSH, could have been involved in such a butchery of his own work.

dollars to donuts it was also MS KHAN, responsible for all the other crap revisionism done to dc over the years(hawkman,legion,superboy,hal)

i notice a trend on the boards for persons to either be for or against different versions of the same hero(hal/kyle,katar/carter), people complaining about "continuity". did it ever occur to anyone that once you tell a good story, all of the rest stuff doesn't matters?

i remember reding the legion issues where the red herrings were tossed about regarding supergirl/projectra,in my opinion the dc universe and the legion would have been much richer if that had panned out.

paul, bless your heart for having that idea ,and now that you're THE BOSS, thanks for bringing KARA back ( go PETER!!!!!)

BTW, STEVE, WHEN CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE WHATEVER LEGION STUFF YOU'RE WORKING ON, AND IS IT ONLY THE LEGION YOU'RE INTERESTED IN? IF NOT ,WHAT ELSE?

I didn't mean to make a 'big deal' of things.
Words just mean something and for me, there isn't any venue where they don't.
Especially and most importantly in a written forum, and in a written forum where kids hang out.

With 9-11, there's been a lot of 'traitor' talk, a lot of undercover work being discussed.

I just need to make distinctions in motives and actions.

Especially on this thread, where Mentalla was designed using Steve's wife.
I don't know if Steve wants the character remembered as a traitor, to BOTH sides.
sigh

Did ya'll consider Rokk a traitor when he was working with Chu but actually trying to bring her down?

And CK ~ just because someone doesn't agree with something that you've said, or the way you've said it, doesn't mean that they don't want you to post.
Or that they should stop posting, either.

Shady

But it's important to remember that words don't mean anything stripped of people's intentions that they do so, or the context in which they are used. I take it "traitor" in this context means a certain type of stock literary character who occurs in certain standard types of stories. Just because it has certain connotation in other contexts does not mean we have to import it into these, or that we should be afraid to use the word because of those connotations.

In real life, whether someone is labeled a traitor or not depends a lot on one's perspective. Was Benedict Arnold a traitor? Or was he just a Loyalist spy on the treasonous revolutionaries? Certainly the organization that the undercover agent infiltrates is going to consider that agent a traitor to that organization, while he will be praised as a hero by those who oppose the cause of the organization in question. Is there a use of the word "traitor" that strips it of this perspectival posturing, and yet maintains some kind of moral connotation? I'm not sure there is. But there are uses of it which are not value-laden, and I think that the use of "traitor" to describe Nemesis Kid or Mentalla is perfectly justifiable. Perhaps Rokk too if we were given more details about his relationship with Chu. As I remember it though, she never fully took him into her confidence, so he was never really given the chance to committ to her cause, so I don't think he really betrayed her. But I wouldn't be beyond saying that if details were slightly different.

I don't think that undercover agents ever 'commit' to the subject groups 'cause'.
Unless they become corrupted, that is.

As far as Rokk goes, he and his Espionage Squad were working undercover against Chu from the beginning and his moral duty was to the Legion, his primary affiliation.

Mentalla certainly didn't commit herself ethically to the Fatal Five and the Empress was incapable of taking ANYONE into her confidence and trust.

When Gim quit/was tossed out of the Legion, and joined the LSV to save his mom, was he a traitor?
If he was, to save his family, should that be what he's remembered for?

As far as I can remember, Mentalla was true to her primary group of concern, the Legion.

These issues were addressed in the TV series, 'Wiseguy', a number of years ago, do you remember it?
The crime boss was played by Kevin Spacey, I think, and when the undercover detective brought his organization down, the crime guy said that the policeman was a traitor to their friendship.
Interesting perspective and he made me cry, even though I knew he had to be stopped and the policeman was morally correct in doing what he did.

Art is supposed to reflect life if it's to have any validity.
Comics are an art form.
That carry over from life is SUPPOSED to be there.

It's an interesting subject to think about ~ ethics and how they translate into being used in life situations, is always worthy of discussion.

Shady

Don't you think that post is slightly over-the-top? I thought I was participating in a nice, innocuous little chat about the origin of a defunct super heroine's costume. Your wilfull and unnecessary mis-interpretation of what I was saying is totally uncalled for and to link it to September 11th is bizarre and offensive.

This all seems to have come from your opinion that I mis-used the word "traitor." Can you give us a lexicon of words and phrases you find offensive? I guess "perspective" would be at the top of the list.

And what's with that bit about Steve's wife? Why bring that up? You seem to be implying that in some way I've besmirched the reputation of a real-life person. I obviously haven't and I really don't appreciate you trying to wring every last drop of drama you possibly can out of a "controversy" which is entirely of your own creation.

Why bring any of this up in the first place? Your perma-justification that you're doing it for the kids (by which I take it you mean under 12s) rings a bit hollow considering it's a thread discussing a run of comics from over 15 years ago. How many under 12s are going to be interested in that? In my estimation - 0.

You've managed to find offense where clearly none was intended and blown the situation out of proportion. Going from a harmless post about a comic book character and spinning it into some kind of rant about the ethics of real-life counter-terrorism is ridiculous and you know it. How many potential posters see something like that and decide not to bother sharing their opinions at the risk of having their words intentionally misconstrued? Loads probably - coz I for one am going back to lurking.

Okay.
Shadowplay

Yep, so much respect and you don't even know how to spell the woman's name.;)

No need to sound so happy, but I guess your silence speaks volumes.

I'll see you soon "CK".

I've liked hearing from Steve on this thread, and with Dave Cockrum posting on another...WOW!

If we has Giffen come by, well, that would just be dandy.

I don't know what to say, Terence.
I didn't intend for him to take any of my comments so terribly and every explanation I try just makes things worse.
I need to cut my losses and move on.
And so does he.

Shady

well shady i think your comparison to 9/11 set him off and to be honest was a bit bizarre, maybe even more bizarre then greybird comparing me(progenitor) to that of a mass murderer like hitler, just a tad extreme.

CK, I wish you wouldn't go back to lurking.

nah
i take that back, greybird's statement was more bizarre.

Isn't that always the way?

Wow! While I was away, things got pretty heated around here.

I think I'll dodge the whole controversy, and instead, hope that cooler heads have since prevailed.

I do want to answer the question about the inspiration for Mentalla's costume. It certainly was based on Saturn Girl's earliest costume. In fact, I'd probably have given her the same hair color too, except that my wife had blonde hair at the time.

Nemisis Kid's costume had nothing to do with her appearance. I know for a fact, since I designed the character of Mentalla, that her fate was not decided at the time of her creation. In fact, she probably would never have appeared again if not for the large amount of fan mail that mentioned an interest in Mentalla. Paul conceived of the idea of having her infiltrate the Fatal 5 without any input from me. If he was subconsciously drawing inspiration from the color scheme of Nemisis Kid's costume ... I have no way of knowing.

Best wishes to all.

Steve L

Cool. Thanks, Steve! I love getting the backstories from the creative side-- Maybe VH1 can do a "Behind the Comics"?

I made no such comparison of whoever-it-really-is-with-that-handle to anybody, living or dead, murderous or not, and he knows it.

What I said was that picking a handle of the name of a -character- who was a mass murderer in these stories struck me as very curious and highly dubious. Especially when so many names from heroes, from neutral characters, or from items of sheer whimsy existed as possibilities. Even "Mordru" was a better name. -He- (almost?) never killed anyone.

I'm a man of strong opinions, but I don't see how that warrants anyone misrepresenting what I say. And I can't stop anyone else from doing it, either.

I'll say what I've said before: If whoever-you-are thought my comments many months ago (this was after "Legion Lost" 11) cut too closely, I tender an apology, even though one isn't obliged on my part. And if you didn't bother to read carefully on your part, as I suggest you didn't, you owe -me- one.

actually you said that it indicident{spelling} of character.
Same thing, saying basically that if i had the chance i would commit mass genocide, EXTREME.
Good thing i never called myself mordru, oh wait i did, didnt he wipe out a couple of planets.

and what about all those people who thought DARTH VADER was cool, are they potential mass murderers

i accept your apology, as half hearted as it is, and you said what i posted, if i could give the link to it i would but i am pretty sure its gone.
i dont owe you an apology, what would i owe you an apology for?
but back to the topic.

Where is Dave Cockrum posting?

i screwed up my post , it was actually "indictitive" of character, not whatever i spelt there.

Mordru, dear, are you trapped in a personal Zero Hour? You seem to be slipping from one ID to another with each post

MAN! I'm sorry to see that this topic/thread has been totally CRISPED.

Rather than try to hash this out, maybe I'll just start another topic in a few days.

Later-

Steve

sorry Steve. i guess i should share in the blame.
and Princess Crujectra, my identity keeps switching because, when i break from work i go to the library in the building and sometimes post. Because it doesnt store my password and i cant remember it, i use my first user name because the password is easy to remember.
I dont use multiple id's, i just use the old one when necessary.

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