Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter: It's Official

First of all to TimeTrapper...I am sorry for my tone when adressing you...it's just that, John Bryne doesn't even attempt to claim his reboot was a good thing for the Legion.

Mark Waid, who playd a part in every post crisis reboot readily admits that revamp broke the Legion and has even confronted Byrne in public over his changes to the Superman character.

So you see...not even the guilty parties deny their guilt in this matter...I don't see how it can be defended.


NightCrawler and LadBoy...I get you guys are trying to keep things civil and I appreciate the sentiment. Unfortunately, I've been having veiled and obvious shots taken at me for a few weeks now and you guys have not uttered a word about it...so you see, it's hard for me to view you guys taking this time to make these statements as an act of simple objectivity entirely in the best interests of the board.


I'll just save us all some arguments and headaches and take my opiinions elsewhere...the fact of the matter is I viscerally despise John Byrne's Superman reboot and 90% of all post crisis versions of the Legion and because of that, I probably should take my passion to a site not devoted to glorifying all of the Legions as this one is devoted to doing...

It's a noble and postive goal of this site, and I have enough respect for that intent to not muck it up with my overly passionate views of one version of the Legion and pretty much complete disdain for many others. Not a good fit for this site.


It was fun, take care, good luck with your site, and most importantly LL the Legion.

Thanks. Very articulate and classy words. I appreciate the effort you put into them.

I think you are right, I think my posts probably are a little undiplomatic. It's not important that my perosnal opinion be heard...so much as it is the opinion itself is heard. There are others that can do that more effectively and I hope they will continue to do just that. Thanks for the kind and articulate statement. It was recieved in the mannter in which you hoped it would be :tu

Ironic his his handle was Superboy.

Well, I hope he reconsiders and returns. Especially with so much big stuff in the works!

It was never my intent to wish anyone involved to leave, only that the discussion remain civil.

Unfortunately, I haven't the time nowadays (or sometimes the interest) to monitor each and every post. If you're still around, I'd be interested in links to these posts. I'm about as impartial as one can get, so I'd prefer that everyone be duly chastised.

I agreed with about everything in Superboy's posts his views and mine are the same,to me the Legion died after Crisis with John Byrne's Superman re-boot,The Legion right after that was hemoraging and DC put a bandaid on it and it bled to death,They tried to re-create it with half of it's concept missing and it failed over and over again.
So my opinion is that any Legion that has no history or connection to Kal-El is not the Legion or at least not a Legion I want to read about.
I hope my opinion does not get me kicked off of LegionWorld and I am sorry if this post makes the fans of the Re-Boot Legion's mad.
I will miss you Superboy as I have for over twenty years now.

Sorry, but I fail to see how having and opinion will get you "kicked off of LegionWorld" or why anything was said or done to suggest such a thing.

The reason for my (and probably the other's) posting here were these words -

An overly hostile tone which belittles a fellow member rather than argue a point. That's what's against the rules.

For all you know I could agree with his sentiment, but certainly not his way of doing it.

No one has been "kicked off" Legion World due to this discussion. If Superboy (the poster) chooses to leave, that is entirely his choice.

But comments that belittle or attack another poster should not be tolerated, and several posters above were right to call Superboy out on this (though they attempted to be as diplomatic as possible, a trait Superboy confesses that his posts lacked). It has nothing to do with his opinion regarding Byrne or the reboot Legions.

If a poster wishes to express a strong view regarding anything, fine. But said poster should not be surprised if there are equally passionate and opposite views. If said poster cannot tolerate such views or be courteous toward those who express them, then perhaps he or she should think twice before posting.

Their are a few people on the DC Legion message Boards that claim that voicing your opinion on LegionWorld will get you kicked off of LegionWorld ,But they were on here before my time and I do not know the whole story so I'm SORRY if I jumped to conclusions,I myself have been treated with respect for the most part since I joined two years ago even when I have disagreed with someone.

No problem.

Nobody has -ever- been "kicked off" LW for voicing their opinions, LWL. If people were booted it was for disruptive behavior or intent to cause problems... anyone on the DCMB's claiming otherwise is delusional. They know what they did and are looking for anyone besides themselves to blame.

You're fine.

Wasn't it though


Nightcrawler, I don't remember any specifics nor am I out to squeal on someone. It may not have even been at this site, but I'd swear it was at this site someone just flat out told me to
"shut up". Maybe it wasn't..and maybe I over-reacted to the clowns post about 9/11...but these escalations do happen in discussions...simply because people don't like various versions of the Legion....it's like religion and politics, it might even be more divisive.


Lone Wolf Legionaire, they didn't ban me and were polite....I just want that Legion back. And if we don't let DC know it, we'll keep getting this same derivative purist legion that never was the original...Keep fighting the good fight bro...you have a better temperament for doing it here than I do...this place is kind of a celebration of the whole Legion thing, and I am way too militant about seeing that version to be celebrating all the Legions right now.

You know the one...



yeah...that one.

You know all they asked Alex to do was draw the Legion, they didn't tell him which one to draw...that's just the one he drew, that's the Legion to him...to me and I believe you as well and IIRC, that's one of the few for which he has kept the original artwork.

Keep fighting the good fight...I'll be lurking and reading, and fighting this fight elsewhere, where my temprament is more appropriate.

PS: If Shooter start posting here I will be back, in a heartbeat. That's too awesome of an opportunity to pass up. I expect some Marvel fans will be showing up too as Shooter is still really popular with a lot of Marvel fans.

"tone"

The guy BYRNE KILLED SAID, in referance to "The Greatest Hero of Them All" storyline : "No...I mean that was a lousy solution that fixed nothing, but that's not what I am blaming him for. You just don't understand. "
Dude, you're misunderstanding your focus on Byrne ( your problem )with the facts. Which are; there were more people involved with the story THAN Byrne. specifically Paul Levitz.
He wrote the BULK of the story, Byrne wrote the POST CRISIS world the LEGION visited....The same Legion from POST CRISIS that
a) Cosmic Boy came from during Legends and recognized it WASNT the past he thought he knew.
b) Which was the past that Brainy and Kara "hooked up" in.

John Byrnes #1 victumn states:"And you don't see just a little bit of contradiction there?


That's not my problem...that's yours."

I purchase my comics to read. I understand the stories there in.... no problem.
Your PROBLEM with seeking blame clouds your ability to do the same.

PocketUniverseHero states:
"Hey apologize for Byrne all you want...

But don't sit here and tell me his revamp of Superman didn't completely screw up the Legion...and expect me to take you seriously."
Ur same standards applied....Marv Wolfman wrote CRISIS therefore it is his fault. Seriously speaking of course.

PUH says: "You seem to think the pocket universe story fixed something...it fixed nothing. "

Classic DC retcon on an UNIVERSAL scale?
YEARS of stories not being flushed away?
The inspiration of the LEGION given respect by the LEGION writer in a time when DC ignored the impact of the character?
Ur right... no meaning at all.

Anti-apologist-assasinated corpes says:
"At least John Byrne admits he knew it was going to screw up the Legion...which is more than I can say for his apologists."
First off, what is "it" in the above statement?
You go all over the place with your lone bullet theroy. Second, yer the one puttin up this wall of ignorance with "apologist" crap. I read comics and form opinions on my own. I dont need a bandwagon mentality to tell me how to read nor how to think of what i read. This is all crap you bring to the table. And that is YOUR PROBLEM.
Byrne, Miller, Perez, Truman, Jones...all were working for DC. And DC ignored EVERYTHING after CRISIS. If you read those books back then...u might see it not as apologist but as simply fact.
Or maybe as more than one bullet....Atleast Levitz gave Superboy and the Legion's past some nod and some signifigance....which is kinda funny, cuz that is just what Bynre seemed to have added to from a readers aspect since the Pocket Universe wasnt ignored by him.

TROMIUM:
"Worse than that, PU Superboy began the trend of creating faux characters to stuff into roles formerly owned by other Legionnaires. How badly that practice compromised the credibility and integrity of the Legion only a few years later is one of the most painful parts of its history."
Marv Wolfman has stated he wanted to start over all the DC line after CRISIS with #1. however Teen Titans and Legion were solid sellers so they didnt want to mess with them. DC said NO. And you have Donna Troy and Superboy....and Hawkman....

Sorry Nightcrawler

A) I am sorry I seemed to have sparked this flare up. Wasnt my intent. My last post was in the spirit of the response responding to and hope some "humor" could be taken from it. I am not totally offended by the words and simply just took em with a grain of salt and responded in kind.
Forgive that please.

B) I read comics to read teh comics...I've allways given new writers the benifit of the doubt. And like any organization I have dealt with in life I allways figured it was the Company as a whole that allowed things to happen. SOMEONE has to know what's going on. So it never occured to me to blame one writer for the total outcome of their stories. I have allways thought it was editors..and in this case I have allways believed DC wanted what John Byrne gave them.
I give em credit for taking the shot instead of keeping the status quo.
The Legion had earned their spot out from under Superboy's shadow and given the perspective from the 30th century it really didnt matter WHAT past Superboy came from.....until it was hammered down our throats retcon after retcon...but I digress.

Now we have 3 Legions....I'd be happy with one that was written with the same passion that the PRE CRISIS one was....but that seems impossible in todays world.

Yet, I'm thrilled that Shooter doesnt seem to want to reboot the current and make do with what is in front of him.

The Legion died for some During Man of Steel, albeit as a continuity glitch. But for me it was at the last pages of End Of an Era.

LLL

The way I see it is that DC as a company sold out the Legion and their fans at the time for their new take on Superman and threw out thirty years of continuity and history that being one of the things that made the Legion so special to me,Other characters took a hit to their continuity like the JSA with the Huntress and the Titans with Donna Troy and somewhat recovered but the Legion lost Kal-El and did not in my opinion because he was so deeply tied into their history,Byrne gets most of the blame because he did not include Superboy in his retake of Superman,but their is plenty of blame to go around and DC as a company being the boss had the ability to say yay or nay let the Legion take the bullet,It is ironic that Kal-El is in the cartoon and that DC now has Superman being part of the Legion.

If I haven't been booted out of here for all my blasphemous talk of Bouncing Boy and Matter Eater Lad...well LW mods do let your share opinion.

How you do it is the problem.

You are correct about the "shut up" comment.

At the time, Reboot was told privately that I wasn't happy about it. Definitely not appreciated. Here's his public chastisement.

But, you're correct that we see value in all of the Legions (even though we prefer some to others).

For what it's worth, my own opinion is that DC pretty much destroyed what was interesting and special about most of its properties during Crisis, and, despite a few good titles here and there, has never been as groovy as it was during the Silver/Bronze Age. My own preferred version of the Legion was tossed "out of continuity" with LSH #300, which was the first time they contradicted major Superman/Legion stories from the Silver Age. So, while I can appreciate that there are aspects of versions of the Legion after that that are interesting (and characters and storylines since then that I've liked), it hasn't really been "my" Legion since then.

The thing is that not only was "Kal-El" an integral part of that version of the Legion, but it was the Silver/Bronze Age Kal-El that was an integral part of the Legion. Unless DC is willing to bring back that approach to writing Superman (the timeless, mythic approach to Superman of the 30s through the 70s), there's really no way they can bring back my preferred Legion. And that way of approaching the character of Kal-El is pretty much antithetical to their entire approach to comics these days (excepting, perhaps, the "All-Star" line).

What EDE just said, pretty much. The wisest way to restore the original Legion would have been the All-Star format, or a parallel world containing the mythos of pre-crisis Earth 1. The Lightning Saga Legion can only be as original, authentic and viable as New Earth Kal-El---not a promising thought.

I was recently shocked to learn that before Byrne reboot, Superman was selling just below 100K. While not great for the early 1980s, especially for the company flagship character, and only a fraction of what Superman sold in the Silver Age, it wasn't a hopeless situation by any stretch. Plus, there was a non-reboot counterproposal by Cary Bates. Other roads never taken.

Byrne, Wolfman and Levitz were all at fault, but the lion's share of the blame goes to Jeanette Kahn, who has the final Yay or Nay on everything.

Who?

Jeanette Kahn was the president of DC Comics at the time, and was behind Wolfman's and Byrne's proposals. She left in 2002, iirc.

My position is that it's not important whose fault any of these perceived* mistakes were. Why do we need someone to blame? Are we going to sue him or her? We are not. We don't know what was going on in the meetings; we only know what appeared on the pages. And we should try to avoid talking about things we don't know about.

* I say 'perceived' because, while it's true that the comic book stories in question could have been better, they could also have been a lot worse.

Matthew E, I agree. No point in blaming people. Just blame DC as a whole. DC has let the Legion down across the board.

But Jorge, they are still publishing it.