Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter: It's Official

He also mentions "new members". Hmm?

Shooter: "I am doing my best to honor what they established, even things I wouldn’t have done—for instance, Colossal Boy being from a city of giants and insisting on being called “Micro Lad.” I’m keeping the established continuity going the best I can."

Ugh, I hated Gim's new origin.

Another Shooter quote "Poorly trained editors". I have to agree 100%. The writers have the ideas! The art is great but it seems many editors today are lacking.

And I'm excited about the new worlds, members, villains, etc. I think it's better to just introduce new things rather than change old ideas. Keep the old ideas the same and introduce new.

If Shooter is still as full of ideas as he was as a teenager, he might have this book running within a year - and will probably have told more of a story (surroundings, history, biographies, characterization and actual action!) than Waid did in his 30 issues.

But it's a big "if"...

Hey, Cheryl Lad (great ID, BTW). Welcome. Waid's vision of the Legion's future society has been a hot topic around here since before the series debuted.

I don't really view the Waid future as dystopian. It's more than a little straight-laced, but it's not like everyone's living underground, being ruled by computers and mind-controlled with drugs so that they don't realize how fun sex is or anything.

Yes, children are kept on a pretty short leash, but as the current parent of a 5-year old, I don't see the "Public Service" (the underager tracking system) as that far out an extrapolation. Legally, children in our society have very limited privacy and free expression rights (see the recent "Bong Hits for Jesus" case). Waid's 31st Century isn't that much worse than the present day.

I think Waid's vision is partly a parody of the 1950s-based future of the original Legion. In that original view, life was perfect, homemakers were happy, and there weren't any racial, ethnic or other minorities around to make people uncomfortable. Waid's future posits a similar idyllic environment but doesn't ignore the likely costs in terms of creative thought and free expression.

More significantly, I think Waid was commenting on the current state of American society, where after 9/11 everyone decided to be afraid of everything, and lash out in fear at every little "boo" noise. Here was a society at the pinnacle of material success, more free and open than any society in history, which had survived the 20th century, defeated fascism and communism, stared down the mutually assured destruction of the nuclear era, now totally bugging out and scared of its own shadow. Wiretap everybody and spy on libraries! Pre-emptively invade countries! Don't let your kids play outside! Shark attacks! Snipers! Bird flu! Terrorist dolpins mining cruise ships! YEARRGH! It's not that far from America the land of the fraidie-cats to the residents of Waid's 31st Century Metropolis. I remember very fondly Sun Boy's line in issue #1 of the current series: He's warning Cosmic Boy that the power structure wants "us to be afraid of the future." That brought a tear to my eye then, and it still does.

Where Waid went wrong for me was that he took the neat ideas extrapolated from current society and simplified them unncessarily as a generational conflict. Kids rebelling against stifling parental control is fine, and a reasonable element for the Legion, but it didn't have to translate into total contempt for ALL adults. The lack of ANY positive adult role models made Waid's Legion feel too much like "Lord of the Flies" or an LA Street Gang.

A lot of people don't like Shooter, I don't know that it's fair to single Byrne out. He's no more a Shooter-hater than many others from his generation. The stuff Byrne has said about Shooter is no worse than the stuff said by Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, Gene Colan, Jim Mooney, or Steve Gerber when they left Marvel. Byrne's view is not wholly negative, either. From what I've read, he thinks Shooter did a fine job in his early years as EIC, getting things organized and back on schedule, revitalizing the core characters, bringing in new talent. He portrays Shooter as then becoming more megalomaniacal in his mid-to-later years, making arbitrary changes, "fixing" things that weren't broken and being a micro-manager when a hands-off approach would have been better. So his view is more nuanced than just hating Shooter completely.

I'm a big fan of Shooter the writer, not so much of Shooter the editor. I felt like the overall quality of Marvel's books declined under his leadership. But I know lots of people disagree with me, and certainly sales were good during his tenure.

Well, Carlin didn't have the power to pull the plug, but (according to the story Shooter tells) he did have the power to make a fuss and create problems. Certainly at that point Levitz had the power to overrule him and say we're doing it anyway, but he obviously felt the damage in terms of alienating one of the top editors was not worth the benefit of the Shooter project at the time. I think it's significant that this Shooter rapprochment is happening now, after Carlin was basically demoted a few years ago.


Five issues (out of six total, I believe) of the JLA Classified have been pencilled by Byrne. Farmer is doing the inking now.

Thanks for clarifying. As I said, I haven't read the Waid stories, I just glanced over them, and I've read general synopses of the premise which were sufficient to keep me from being interested enough to buy them.

Again, I think my philosophy of the Legion is different. I know it's a longstanding idea in science fiction to incorporate controversial issues from today into futuristic scenarios, but I don't think the Legion should be about that. The Legion's future society should be better than our present, not just a thinly-disguised version of it. Doing things like that puts me in the mind of the concept of Tyroc, probably the least-successful idea in all of silver/bronze age Legion stories. Trying to do a story about racial prejudice in a Legion story falls flat because there should be no racial prejudice in the Legion's future. I see the Legion as kids working with adults, not rebelling against them. Again, I will be very interested in what direction Shooter goes with this.

And a lot of people don't like Byrne as well...including many of the same guys who don't like Shooter for instance.

I don't know how many took over a book just so they could kill Shooter in effigy over and over again, and nuke his home town. Byrne couldn't wait to take that book over and that was the only reason he did it.


Ironically enough...about half those guys hate Byrne as well...including Roy Thomas, who once tried to sue Byrne.

Most of those guys hated Shooter because he killed their writer editor gigs at Marvel...so they went and got writer editor gigs at DC.

Why do guys like Thomas and Wolfman dislike Byrne?

Shooter the Editor has been more successful than Shooter the writer...in any case, I don't doubt a lot of guys dislike Shooter..but I don't think many of them have been as obvious as Byrne, or gone to the lengths he has just to get some sort of in print revenge.

Fact...Byrne took over StarBrande and mutilated the character, that was supposed to bear more than a passing resemblance to Shooter...

I don't know any other guys that have taken on Shooter's projects for the sole purpose of the destroying them.

That's what sets him apart...so yes, there is something in his past that gives me plenty of room to speculate that he knew full well he was going to screw up the Legion...in fact he's said he knew it was going to screw up the Legion.

I'm not giving DC a free pass...but 99% of the people in the industry would have been more respectful of the Legion's history IMO...and said, dang, I can't do that to that book...

But Byrne has admitted he doesn't like the Legion.
He's taken over at least one of Shooter's projects for the sole purpose of ruining it.
He's taken shots at Shooter in comics.



Probably just didn't want to screw with it...don't get me wrong, I've said what happened to the Legion reflects badly on Levitz...but nontheless, it's always going to be Byrne who instigated the plug pulling to me. IF he'd said he wanted to save that continuity, DC would have gone along with it...would have been more money for them. But they hired Byrne to do a Marvel Superman and went along with his whims IMO.

There are a lot of guys gone that could have had something to do with it...but there are also a lot of guys still there that reportedly don't like Shooter. It's all speculation...I personally enjoy blaming Byrne for it...and likely will continue to do so.


SO he was working on it well before Shooter was back at DC...therefore the fact that he has that stuff done does nothing to disprove my speculation.

Tell me something...when was the last time Byrne and Shooter worked for the same company, knowing they were both going to be working there?

I'm not sure if you're being rhetorical or really asking. I don't know about Roy Thomas's feelings about Byrne, beyond the threatened libel lawsuit in the early 80's. I would imagine Marv Wolfman dislikes Byrne primarily because Byrne testified on Marvel's behalf in the case involving Wolfman's attempt to gain the copyright for Blade. Shooter also testified against Wolfman's case at that trial, by the way.

I think we're talking about different things here, because the quote of mine you were responding to was about the abandonment of Shooter's last Legion story, not the reboot that retconned Superboy out of existence. Regarding the Superboy issue, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I don't think Byrne deserves all the blame for the retconning out of Superboy.


Well, I don't think Byrne ever worked for Defiant or Valiant or Broadway, and Shooter has not worked for either of the Big Two since 1987, so I guess it would be 1986, before Byrne left Marvel to do Superman.

At any rate, are you saying you think Byrne will refuse to work for DC if Shooter is getting regular work there, or are you saying Shooter will somehow be able to use some influence to prevent Byrne from getting more work there?

Byrne seems to have been getting less work at DC since Carlin moved out of the top spot. There are rumors that he has made some political missteps that have cost him work, but it may also be simply that his work is perceived as old fashioned by the current powers that be. Or he may be choosing to do less work for them. His recent Superman work sold well, but his other recent stuff has not, though that may be largely because the Demon and the Doom Patrol are marginally popular characters.

Somebody remind me please. Which issues included the last (second?) set of Shooter stories for the LSH?

Do you mean his Adventure run which ended with #382 or his Superboy (and the...) run which ended with #223?

I think YK means the S&LSH run, Scott. I'm not very knowledgeable of that era, so I can't give a complete inclusive listing of Shooter's work in it.

Anyone?

For the S&LSH run Shooter wrote main or back-up on #219-223.

Actually, Shooter's second run on Legion started with Superboy Starring the Legion of Super-Heroes #209. His last issue was #224. Most of the issues during that time featured two stories per issue, and Cary Bates continued as co-writer. So some issues are all Shooter, some have one story by Shooter and one by Bates, and two (#216 and #218) are all Bates. This is a great resource.

The bummer is that Shooter's last issue was the first part of a multi-part story. Editor Murray Boltinoff had been replaced by Denny O'Neil, which meant Shooter would have been free to do longer, more complex stories if he'd stayed at DC.

This one?
S and tLSH #223? That was Shooter?



Makes a nifty wallpaper too

(not very hi-res though)

edit: This is one HOT thread tonight!

I wasn't sure about the Shooter stuff in the later years. That's why I had to ask. I got to where I really didn't like Mike Grell's art once he started "phoning it in" and didn't give those issues much attention.

Now I have to dig 'em out and refresh myself on Shooter's Legion...cool... :

Actually that's SLOSH #219...but yeah, that's him.

And yes...Shooter's last issue was #224...Pulsar Stargrave.


Ironically enough for the argument Cheryl Lad and I were having...it was edited by Denny O'Neil.




During the Shooter Grell run the Legion was DC's best selling title(at least according to Grell).

It's funny because I've always heard Grell left the book because he didn't like working with Shooter...but he actually was there before and after Shooter...and I just realized he outlasted Shooter while looking through my back issues.


BBL guys...I haven't read Shooter's second run in a loooooooong time...gonna go read now.

And no doubt, he would have been encouraged to do so if Denny O'Neil had been his Editor.


You know, I never realized Bates stayed on after Shooter came on board as writer...or if I did I've forgotten. And I always thought the Shooter run ended with James Sherman as artist...never remembered Grell staying on for the whole run.


I also thought it was Shooter that wrote the Superboy VS Wildfire story and that killed Chemical King...didn't realize it was Levitz that did those.

Been a long time since I read this stuff.


Dang, I can't believe Jim Shooter is back on the Legion.

Argument? Hey, I thought it was just a discussion.

Actually, Shooter's last issue was also Grell's (aside from one later guest issue and the Lightning Lad/Saturn Girl marriage tabloid). According to Paul Levitz, Grell was originally supposed to continue as regular artist when Levitz took over, but he didn't really like the Legion that much so he quit to do Batman. Then Warlord went monthly and he had to give up Batman after just a couple issues. From what I've read, Grell didn't dislike Shooter per se, he just thought his plots were too long and detailed.

That was a typo by me, sorry. It should have read #209, not #219.

Especially since I know my first Legion story was a Shooter, #210, "Soljer's Private War". Never will forget that.

Well, many of the stories of that era were only so-so... apart from the wonderful tabloid (I LOVE that issue, it's just huge and does not fit into any collector system whatsoever :-) ), I can't remember any really relevant story from that era... Stargrave came after it, Invisible Kids death before it, so wasn't that the era when in most issues, Superboy took four accidental Legionnaires on some one-parter adventure? Hm...

From the Wizard World interview:
Perhaps it's this type of painfully honest analysis of the industry that has helped make Shooter so disliked in the past within the industry.

And it's that type of painfully honest analysis of the industry that could very lead to Shooter not getting along very well with the current state of things at DC.

Seems that DC gets the most press when they celebrate their own history. I'm liking the idea of looking to a previous version of the LSH and bringing back into play their role in helping Kal realize his potential to become "The Greatest Hero of Them All".

I'd like to see them explore more of it, perhaps even return to original concepts whenever possible. The mysterious scary Batman (as originally envisioned) seems to play well with an audience, think Wonder Woman would sell well if they returned to the mild bondage implied in the old WW2 Diana stories?

I only saw this news a day or two ago. I'm more eager to see what he does the more I think about it. I hope he brings some of the old fashioned storytelling standards to this Legion. I'm glad he's sticking with the 3boot if for no other reason than I trust that he's going to work in that framework to tell interesting stories. DC could bring back any prior version of the Legion and in the wrong hands it wouldn't be anything more to me than a mildly interesting bit of nostalgia. It'll be an interesting exercise if nothing else. I'd rather be interested in a Shooter written 3boot than bored with a resurrected Pre-Crisis or Zero Hour Legion.

From a commercial standpoint, teaming Shooter with a rising star like Manapul will definitely make the book a high-profile one. Whether the high profile translates to sales is anyone's guess at this point.

It seems like the creative team of S&M will be progressive from both a writing & artistic standpoint. It's a nice pairing and we'll just have to see how the energy this team creates translates to the comics that will come out. As with most of us, I'm eager to have great stories told for the Legion, the only team that's made it all the way to it's 50th year!

The discussions about Shooter, Byrne, Waid & everyone else has been a treat to read in a "True Hollywood Story" sense. I just hope that Shooter is allowed the room & time to do what he envisions for the Legion. At this time it doesn't appear to be a limited run & the stability that implies is a welcome one. I likewise hope that politics will not enter the picture. The last thing I want is the Legion to suffer because of it.

I also think that giving Shooter the Legion (and having Marts, a previous outsider, edit him) will ease his transition back into DC since it will not require having to work heavily with people with whom he's had differences with. Much like the Legion, he has his own corner to play around in. :-)