Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter off Legion?

You are a genius. I can't agree more with you!
Johns now draws readers simply by being a writer in that book. Or why would anyone buy a Booster Gold book these days (I would, but for missing JLI...)?

I just don't think DC would bring Shooter on if they had known about L3W. In my opinion, this came out of nothing, probably after Shooter's deal, on the fact that both Johns and Pérez wanted a shot at that. For me, this was so rushed that Pérez was taken of B&B assignment before it even concluded.

To be true, i guess Perez planned his Legion stint for a long time. In the wonderful Hardcover book "Storyteller", which covers Perez' whole career til BatB, he already hints very strongly to the possibility that after BatB, his next project would be Legion stuff. So I guess at least in his case it's not actually rushed, but the right project at the right time - of course you can argue that Perez didn't hint as to which Legion version he would be doing, but I think it's quite certain that DC had him in the "Legion bullpen" for at least a year...

IIRC Perez was supposed to be the artist when Levitz came back to the book in 1981, that's why Perez was doing the covers at that time, and it was a book he wanted to do from what I remember. Keep in mind...Perez cites Curt Swan as his main influence, and mentiones his Legion work from the Adventure era often, and you can see the similarities in the cleanness of the styles.

I think I read in an interview a long time ago that as soon as Wolfman found out Perez was coming to DC he was all over Perez for the Titans relaunch.


So really Perez is about 30 years overdue for his Legion stint.

I am not 100% certain he was going to do the Legion, I just seem to remember Wolfman mentioning it in an interview...and Perez was doing the covers.

In his Newsarama interview, he says he has always wanted to draw the LSH, but he never had the chance and NOW, with L3W, he had the opportunity. So, again, he wanted, but now, with Johns, he got it.

Maybe I'm weird.

I like (or want) superhero books where the main characters don't think of themselves as superheroes first. The X-Men movies made me realize this. I wanted to see an X-Men team that saw themselves more as activists for the mutant cause than superheroes. Sometimes they have seemed that way, but certainly not consistently.

And I realized later, once the Legion became my favorite superheroes, that I wanted to see a Legion who weren't in it just to be heroes. A Legion who were in it for some social, cultural or political reason, whose actions led to them being seen as heroes.

I realize my desires could be interpreted as "pretentious superheroes" - that is, superhero comics claiming to be about something else. I still wouldn't think of them as non-superhero books, certainly. Just... different.

Waid's idea was a starting point, but it did have a problem. The same problem he had with almost every idea in his run: he threw it in the air and didn't develop it well (or at all).

This is why I like the WaK Legion. I'm often attracted to a comic for its ideas rather than their execution. Just because an idea comes off poorly doesn't mean it couldn't work well some other time. In my conception of an ideal Legion, Waid's concepts play a prominent role.

In all the discussions about Shooter v Johns, the on-going artist has been ignored to some extent.

I have taken it that Perez is ONLY doing L3W so FJM is not affected by any upheaval - unless he wants to be.

We don't know that. It's not unlikely that George could become a co-plotter/artist on a future Superman & LSH book (which is what I bet it will happen to LSH).

Well, I disagree to a point. The ZH Legion brought me to the Legion and its concept and I consider it "my" Legion. I've gone back and bought lots of pre-ZH issues and I like them very much, but I just don't have the connection to those characters like you old timers.

Indeed, looking back at some of the Shooter issues (and some of his subsequent work) makes me wonder if the hype at his return was little more than nostalgia. I mean, I think he's doing a decent job, but to read some of the stuff here, you'd think he was the second coming of Christ or something...

Absolutely agreed.

For me, anyway, it has to do with where I am in comics. I had not picked up a comic in 10 years until a few issues into the 3boot, as I wanted to see what had become of my post-ZH Legion characters. I ended up buying all the rest of the Legionnaries and LSH run, LW, LL, and The Legion and found myself a bit down after reading the empty-tank of the late Peyer/McCraw run and the jolt of energy of DnA, only to have that peter out until Simone stepped in to close it out and it started all over again. So changing creative teams is nothing new on Legion, that is for sure.

I also had no idea who Johns was until I picked up the Action issues. So as someone with little connection to the "classic" Legion, the story was written with (IMO) such good characterization (a HUGE part of which was because of the artwork) that I bonded with those characters to a degree which I was not expecting. Was the plot the best ever? Not in a million years. But the package as a whole felt right to me, and I am looking forward to seeing more. And it's not a feeling I get when I read the current Legion. I would say that the first arc of the 3Boot had that feeling because it was so new, but now... not so much.

The main reason Shooter is widely respected among Legion fans is because of everything he created...not necessarily the stories themselves(although he wrote what IMO are some all time classic comic stories).


Basically as a 14 year in his first writing assignment he created:

Karate Kid
Princess Projectra
Nemesis Kid
Ferro Lad.

And then he really got started...in the span of the next 15 issues or so he created:

The Dominators
The Khunds
The Dark Circle
The Controllers...

And mixing in just about every memorable Legion Villian along the way, like:


Mordru
The Fatal Five(this means the Emerald Empress and the Emerald Eye of Erkon, Validus, The Persuader etc.)
The Sun Eater
Universo
Dr Regulus


And then threw in a couple more Legionaires like:

Shadow Lass
Chemical King

As well as some supporting characters like:

Rond Vidar
The Wanderers


And I didn't even scratch the surface...that's just off the top of my head. He created all that as as 14-15 year old in the span of about 20 issues. And what he created is about 8 times as much as any other creator outside of Jerry Siegel...in all those years since.

Everybody since has just been reintroducing Shooter's characters and most of his Villians have been retconned into major villians of the DCU.


And somewhere in there he found time to create the Parasite for the Superman Rogue's gallery as well.

Not too bad for 15 year old...

Not only that, but he is one of the very few writers who understands storytelling like the palm of his hand. JG Jones said on Newsarama today:
'Nuff said!

JS was originally engaged for a sixteen month story arc. That should have taken him up to March 2009.

How's this for a theory....

L3W was originally 8 issues, to run to March 2009 but has been shortened to finish it during 2008 as part of the Legion anniversary.

Sooo.... Shooter goes three months early and Johns has to squeeze 8 months into 5.

Well, nostalgia is a fine reason for holding him in esteem and pulling eyeballs into a book. My point is that he needs to deliver now. Shooter is in a bad spot because he was left with a bunch of plot threads. Unfortunately, he is taking too long to resolve those, IMO. So I'm not completely sold on his storytelling abilities.

Thanks for jogging my memory. I remember when Dark Dominion came out and buying the first issue, as the concept sounded good, and I remember folks in the industry making a big deal about it being a Shooter project. (I still have it somewhere in my boxes)

I never bought the rest of the series. I dunno, maybe he's just not my cuppa joe.

Well he wrote probably my favorite story ever...but that's not the only reason why I like him.

I like him because he is the guy that isn't nostalgic. He's the guy that creates the new stuff...it's every one else writing the book that is nostalgic.

I'm not excited about his return to see him write about the Khunds again. 'm exicited that he's going to create and write about another race/species other than the Khunds that will be just as memorable.


I'm sold...in fact after today's issue, he's already created something, a species, that I think is going to be retconned into the 21st century DC
Uni, probably within 2 or 3 years.


See that's the other thing, all those things Shooter created, they've been retconned into the main DC Uni...so there's nothing fun or exciting about the Legion facing them anymore. There's nothing exciting about seeing them reintroduced every 5 years. But yet that's what all the Legion writers usually want to focus on....reintroducing them....re introducing them, with a tweak. So who's being nostalgic?


I want the best stuff brought back...and to move on..I don't want to just keep bringing the stuff back, especially when it's less memorable than it was the first time around because it's no longer original. There's nothing exciting to me about seeing Vi get the Eye...the Eye is nothing new, and neither is Violet. They've been around since Shooter.

He certainly seems to be attempting to do it again, with that UP Young Heroes team. One issue in, he's already introduced a new character, Giselle, and a few issues after that, he's got five more of them showing up.

Will they have the same traction as the Heroes of Lallor or the Wanderers? Who knows, but I'm willing to give the man a chance.

Indeed, he's already been criticized for introducing new characters and not bringing back old favorites (like Matter-Eater Lad and Infectious Lass), so for every person that wants him to avoid plugging the nostalgia angle, there's another complaining that he's not bringing back enough classic characters.

Frankly, if I wanted to peg the nostalgia pedal to the floor, I'd be more interested in the Action Legion, which feels to me, much like Indy 4, like an attempt to market to pure nostalgia at the sacrifice of interesting storytelling or characterization.

And I think Superboy and I just agreed on something, which explains the flock of flying pigs I just saw out the window.

He certainly has imagination, I will definitely give you that (although the first thing I thought of after reading the issue today about the creatures was the Borg from Star Trek). But I also enjoyed #42 alot - the first one in a long time(but I'll talk about that on the other thread).

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that, either. It seems to be a lot of fan pressure to do that stuff, tho.

Shooter just has a way of making stuff memorable. Like when he introduced Mordru....

The first time Mordru appeared...Superboy and Mon-El ran away...in sheer terror, they didn't just run out of the clubhouse or fly into space, they got the heck out of the millenium to bide time until they could figure out how to defeat him.

The fact that Superboy and Mon-El ran way...forever set Mordru apart from being a mere run of the mill villian. Because those two don't run from anyone of their own free will. It's just little things like that he does that makes stuff stick in your mind...even his bad stuff is memorable.


And the other thing is...most of the people that have been writing this book are fans of the book. They idolize Shooter...even Paul Levitz I think idolizes him to a degree, and so when they write they book they really don't grow it much beyond what Shooter did, they just sort of fufill their childhood dreams playing with Shooter's creations...and they write they book at this insider fan level. It appeals to some fans, pisses others off, and it's just stuff that doesn't generally appeal to many non-Legion fans.

And heck, you can't write this book just to please Legion fans any longer...we are too diverse in our views to make us all happy. Best just to go out and write the best and most original stories you can. The old stuff is always going to divide us now...but the new stuff can still unite. And reintroducing Cosmic Boy LL and Sat Girl isn't new...it was never new.

I agree with Superboy; Shooter isn't the guy who gets notalgic and gives the next Dark Circle story. Shooter is the guy who introduces something brand new and makes *that* memorable. That's what makes him great to have on a series.

And the only way to keep the franchise viable is to give us new characters, situations, themes, subplots, antagonists, planets, weird elements, interesting tidbits and other things. But it must be new.

Word just in from Wizard World Philadelphia, DC Nation panel via Comics Continuum.

"Jim Shooter remains writer of Legion of Super-Heroes, Ian Sattler {DC's Senior story editor) said."

It's not in the Newsarama panel report but maybe other sites will add to it or we'll hear more from Danny Dearest himself over the weekend.

Yay! Good news at last!

So why isn't he remotely involved with L3W? Why such event stays large and away from LSH monthly? I still don't get that.
update: Maybe that's why:
"Anything that has to do with the story of Final Crisis, will take place in Final Crisis and assorted minis," not in regular series, DiDio said.

At today's DC Nation Panel, a fan asked about the rumor of Jim Shooter off the Legion book and here's a quote from Ian Sattler at the Philly Panel:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...0/dcnation.htm

WIZARD WORLD PHILADLEPHIA: DC NATION

* Jim Shooter remains writer of Legion of Super-Heroes, Sattler said

Boy, it sure took them long enough to deny a rumor that could prove destructive to the ongoing series. Wouldn't it have just made more sense to issue a press release as soon as the rumor began making the rounds rather than letting it fester like an open wound for so long?

Now Wizard online is reporting the same on thier coverage section too:

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/053008wwphdcnation.html

Is Jim Shooter still on Legion?

Sattler: "Yes."

From the same convention, other panel:

"In "Legion of Three Worlds," "fans all Legions will have their cake and eat it too -- but two of those pieces won't taste as good as the other one.""