Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Let's Talk About LSH #2...(potential spoilers ahead)

I second that. As much as I've enjoyed the chances I've had to interact with the creators on-line, I think the stories really decline in quality when the creator/reader relationship becomes too close.

Agreed, but I don't think giving Nura white hair would seriously impair their artistic vision.

I think anyone who's been reading my posts for the last few months knows we've got so much planned out already (about three years worth) that anything said here will take a loooonnnnnng time to have any effect

Glad you're all finding lots to discuss in the book!

Timber Wolf, the Boy Wonder?

Robrin?

=)

J

Mark me down as another traditionalist when it comes to Brin. Furball and the feral DnA version never did it for me. Worse still was the addition by Gail (though I loved the story arc) of his use of scent to trail the villains or find the little kid.

As for a name, they could officially name him anything...Gymnastic Lad, Acrobat Boy, anything really...but then have Jo and Dirk nickname him Lone Wolf because of his loner personality, and then have the nickname stick (like Colossal Boy instead of Micro lad)

Since I somehow missed this post earlier, and it doesn't look like anyone explained, I'll tell you.

Brainy said to Cos "If I needed to be patronized by someone I respect, I'd teach a goat to talk."

Later, Brainy says "Someone should tell [Dream Girl] that if you're going to mock me, you'll have to do a better job than that."

Then we cut to his lab full of goats, which suggests that Cos found a perfect way to mock Brainy.

` Glad you're following along Barry. As you can see we'll just take off on an idea and run with it no matter what. We do that a lot.

I for one am pretty happy that you guys are working so far ahead, I know that you have plenty of time to adjust to editorial and market demands that way instead of having to quickly rewrite or "whip" something out just to satisfy a whim from on high. Plus there's lots of time to consider the fan input and consider whether to use or not use any specific ideas or suggestions along the way...even if it takes up to three years before it gets into the book, that's plenty of time for debate.

When we get to a point where we've discussed something to death Lash does us a favor and posts something about the Adventure era or Mike Grell and away we go again. LegionWorld is always busy about some silly something or other.

Finally got a copy of the dang thing. Moved to the West Coast and a lot of the shops that I've found were out.

#1 Enjoyed the story.
I'm taking these Mark and Barry's work as stand alone material. I judge them on the basis of whether they are good stories and make sense, conceptually. So far, so good. I don't get wrapped up on whether dream girl has white or blond hair. Remember, this is a new and different legion and some things will be different.

#2 Enjoyed the colors.
Again, this goes back to #1 and giving the team a creative license to develop their own take on what is Legion and what isn't. The coloring works for me in this new series. I've said this before during last issue's review and I'll say it again: the color scheme allows some of the special effects (Sun Boy's uniform logo, the laser fire, etc.) to really stand out on the page. I don't recall seeing other comics with a color feel as unique as this.

#3 Letter Columns
<font size="4">NO MORE LETTER COLUMNS, EVER!!!!!</font s>
If I have my choice between a couple extra panels of story or reading a long dissertation buy some sexually frustrated fan fic writer, I'll take the couple of extra story pages, thank you.

Back in the day, when letter columns were the rage and people actually read them, THE INTERNET DID NOT EXIST! Well, it existed, but it had not taken the shape of what is is today. There were no LSH message boards, no DC comics home page...there was nothing that resembled that. About the only way you could get other people's opinions of your favorite comic was to read the letter columns that were graciously posted by the publishers. Today, we have instantaneous feedback with message boards such as this one, the beaten-down-broken-record of a message board that is the DC Legion section, and countless comic review writers.

We don't need letter columns anymore. They are too costly to publish and their purpose is best served by other mediums such as this one.

I hate it when people rationally defend positions opposed to mine! Stop it! Stop it!

To be honest, I don't care as much about the letter columns since Barry posts here and can here feedback.

You'd think I wouldn't defend letter columns in my criticism of anything old school.

But I sent an email to Marvel years ago trying to guess the identity of Citizen V in the Thunderbolts. It got printed. Gotta say at the time I was 25/26 but it was a dream come true since I was a little kid writing Marvel and DC a few letters.

Imagine a 13 yr old who sends an email or letter and it gets printed...

But yeah in my rabid old school criticisms (elements that just push us even more into subculture) I would say no lettercol...but I have a heart. Do it for the kids man...the kids.

(but remember kids today like bright matrix like stuff not middle aged men in bright tights. doh!)

Starbucks,

Like the Mess, I am annoyed by the power and logic of your arguments.

However, there is at least one flaw in your case. DC doesn't seem to promote its website, certainly not as a place for regular creator/reader interaction. The "Ask the Editors" piece is OK, but lame in its frequency and length. DC certainly doesn't promote fan-run sites like this one. It is WONDERFUL that Barry is such an active participant here, but we haven't heard a peep from Mr. Waid or Mr. Wacker.

I think DC does need a medium to regularly air reader questions, insights and complaints. Even if it is the letter of the month, customized on the DC propaganda page at the back of the book, this would be better than what we have now. Even if it is a highly-censored book-specific page on their website, that would be an improvement.

I read some of the kiddie DC books with my son (OK, mostly we look at the pictures, because he's 2 and half, but best to start young). Those books DO have letter pages, and I get a kick out of reading them. This would suggest that letters pages are consistent with attracting newer, younger readers.

Let me wrap up with this observation. We worry that Legion is too inaccessible to last. One of the best ways to MAKE it more accessible is to demonstrate, via a letters page, that there is a fan community, and that the new, isolated reader isn't the only one who's crazy.

DC doesn't promote their forums, this is true.

Now, I can't speak for all the title forums but from what I saw of the Legion section of the DCMB, it was a cesspool of whining, crying, and all-out hissy-fit throwing. In short, if I was a writer, I wouldn't bother reading that forum or responding to anything because I'd only get attacked and bashed.

Now, here at Legion World, it's a slightly different atmosphere. Overall, I'd say that we're a pretty positive group and people try to be tolerant of others. We've also been very lucky in that a few of the creators have even graced us with their presence and contribute to the board and in the end, I think that is what every fan wants:

To Know that the Creative Team has read your comments and possibly even responded to them.

Now, to the people who still want the letter col's, do you want them because a) you want the feeling that the creative team has responded to your comments or b) you are obsessed with the concept that if your letter got published, you would actually have been a part of a LSH issue?

I'm betting it's b) more than a).

Now, as far as the accessibility goes, I understand where you are coming from by saying it, but I don't buy the argument anymore, with the relaunch. Other than knowing some people's powers, we're all on the same slate and have been enjoying the new run. I'm real interested in seeing what #2 sales were.

B! B! B!

Now, wait, that's the bad answer, isn't it? Oh well. :-)

c) I want the letters page back simply because I always enjoyed reading it and seeing other people's opinions. I really miss reading it after I finish each issue. I'm also one of those throwbacks who doesnt have a computer at home, so a letter page is more instant gratification for me than going on line.

I guess I'm old fashioned. Lettercolumns extended my reading time on a comic as a kid and introduced me to a variety of voices. It always felt like a "debriefing session" of a previous mission after currently finishing the present one. I looked forward to the one or two line responses from the editor who sometimes teased us with upcoming tidbits or character clarification.

In an age where I fear my child might be overexposed to internet reading, I welcome back the idea that keeps her head in the pages of old-fashioned print material.

I only like letter columns with a fair amount of reply from the writer and/or editor. I've seen some that were simply the letters themselves with no comments from anyone on the creative side. I like my lettercols to count. I've still never seen anything like what Levitz through TMK had in any book at any time - particularly the length and the bit that brought you up to date without an entire page at the beginning of the book.

Haven't seen anyone mention this though it's possible I missed it.

Didn't anyone else catch the unknown teen male that Brainy & Cos passed in the corridor while on their way to see Nura? Wonder if that's another look at the mysterious Legionnaire?

I want the feeling that they at least look at comments, period.

Not everybody has a computer or Net access, as Jim points out above. Not everybody has the money to get to a convention and talk to a creator directly. But anybody who could buy the comic had a chance at some degree of access.

But most people live within the vicinity of a library and have access to the internet, whether they want to admit it or not. Times have changed. Letter columns have gone the way of those ad pages where you could buy the x-ray specs and whoopie cushions.

Comics already cost about $3-4 a piece now. How much higher do you want the price to go?

And even you have admitted that the signal-to-noise ratio on most internet boards is pretty bad. And my convention point still holds.

As for the price, could you explain why printing letters is so expensive?

DC is in the business to make money. Do you think they would print 2 pages of letters an issue for free? I believe someone said that we are already at 40 pages in an issue (30 content + ads). Who pays for the extra 2 pages? Or do you want 1 page + another of ads? As for how much it costs, I haven't a clue, You'd have to coax that out of DC and all you could get is an actual dollar value. You'd have to amortize it by the # of issues printed to get a per issue cost and that can depend on how well the series is doing. But $3 is getting pretty damn high for 1 comic and I'd rather not see it go any further.

Also, I always felt that the creative teams/editors picked and chose what letters to include in the the issues. Therefore, you certainly didn't get an overall idea of what was going on in a large sample of readers. Do you think that they read all the letters regardless or did they just get circular filed (in the trash)? What makes you think that they would even read yours?

Message boards can be cluttered (with topics like "Design Your Legion Underoos"), but they do offer something that a letter column doesn't: the ability to hear all perspectives--good or bad. Do you think we would get to hear about Reboot's grumbling about the reboot in a letter column? I doubt it.

We have it pretty darn good here at Legion World. Barry drops by regularly and gives us treats and even acknowledges members opinions. We even had James Pascoe drop in for a chat (btw, if you didn't go to Wondercon, you missed a chance to meet him) Do you think that Mark sits in a vacuum and does not read these boards. I'd be highly surprised if Mark Waid does not read this board (anonymously).

As a writer, I think you need to have feedback in order to gauge yourself, but there is a limit to how much you want to engage in a discussion of the plot without giving too much up. You might not want to bother reading a message board that trashed your work every day (*cough* Doom Patrol) but a place like here with overall constructive comments would definitely be a place I'd take a 5-10 mind break for some surfing.

He reads it. I feel pretty sure of it. He just might not give you the acknowlegement you crave.

So, if the creative team is already giving you a few replies a month on a message board (which we're getting) or a few replies a month in a letter col, which do you want? I'll take the message board, crazy Matter Eater lad stories and all.

So you do not actually know why, or even if, prinitng letters is expensive. Got it.

I'm not naive enough to believe we would get two (or, more likely, one) extra pages of comic were we to get a letter column.

Don't know. More to the point, neither do you, so this is hardly evidence of anything.


See above.


We have it good here until DC Legal decides we do not. Such are the nature of these boards.

I don't know if Mark reads these boards or not. I hadn't given the issue much thought.


Agreed, but we're veering away from the subject a bit.

Crave?

You really need to stop assigning me motivations.

I wasn't aware this was a zero/sum game.

And the crazy Matter Eater Lad stories are every bit as important to this message board as the creator participation. Perhaps more so, in certain ways.

I find quote breakdown replies to be painful on the eyes to read, but here's the deal:

Comic Costs
Each page on a comic book costs a certain amount to print. There are print set-up costs (fixed), paper costs (variable), and even ink costs (also variable). These dollar value costs are then amortized (divided by) the monthly sales volume to determine a per-unit average, which can change monthly due to sales increases/decreases. As I am unfamiliar w/ the cost model in the comic book industry, it would be pointless to speculate exactly how much it costs to print a page at a pre-determined volume. However, in a nutshell:

(40 printed pages - 9 pages advertising) + (front cover - 3 pages advertising) + DC margin + shipping + retail mark-up = US$2.95

If you can get DC to provide you w/ the values for our variables here so that you can solve for printed page cost, more power to you.

Now, DC isn't going to move on their margin. I doubt the comic book shops or shipping companies will be eager to pay for the letter columns, either. So, you gotta pay for it with more advertising or increase the price.

Now that I think about it, to add a 1 page letter column, you would actually need to sell 3 more pages of advertising to fill the space because we actually use 1+1=front and 1+1=back. Can you convince advertisers to throw additional marketing money to cover the printing of these pages? Remember, the LSH still isn't a proven commodity that can churn out 60k+ a month for certain. We'd all like it to be there (except when we are trying to find our own copies at the CBS but they're sold out), but there is no historical data yet. So, your ad sales team would be responsible for filling more pages. I'm not certain how difficult it is to find more advertisers in comic books, but from my knowlege of radio and regular magazines, ad sales can be commission-driven jobs and I belive radio ad sales has a high turnover rate.

Also, I may be wrong about this but from an advertising standpoint, if you are 1/9 pages (we essentially pay for the DC preview page) the cost might be at one level, but if you are now suddenly 1/12 advertising pages, the rate than can be charged to each advertiser might drop. So, the whole equation slides. There are also other modifiers, such as which page side the ad is on and other stuff but you get the basic idea.

What Letters get Printed
If I've gotta spend time responding to 2-3 letters a month in my title, I'm NOT going to print the letter that says, "OMG YOU KILLED MON EL'S COUZIN! U R STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!" More likely than not, I'm going to be printing the letter that goes something like, "Dear Omnicommunicates (or whatever it used to be--I forget), I really enjoyed issue #2. Tell me, will we be seeing more of the Dream Girl/Brainiac 5 relationship?"

Picking WOULD BE involved, whether you like to admit it or not.

Message Board Legality
Last I checked, there are probably a zillion ez-boards out there dealing with such subjects as: Harry Potter, video games, and maybe a few Depeche Mode ones, too. Unless you are posting unauthorized material that has not been published (i.e. me ripping off the #3 B&W from Wondercon, uploading the images, and posting them), 99% of the media legal departments will be doing jack squat to shut the message boards down. Even then, they'd probably demand that you take it down before they'd have the legal right to shut your message board off (due process). I'd say that the odds of Legion World getting shut down are pretty slim and from what I've seen, the mods here have been pretty good about removing things like solicits before they're scheduled for release.

Case in Point: Take a look at all those websites publishing Paris Hilton's phonebook stuff. As soon as the CIA/FBI contacts the ISP's or MB operators, the material is taken down immediately, but it gets moved someplace else.

But back to our original discussion:

Letter Columns
Letter columns came into existance because at the time, there was no other format for feedback from the creative team. The internet has changed that and we witness this daily. We get feedback now. We get it for free (other than the site's bandwith cost) and we get it without a 3 issue lag.

If I'm part of DC, why would I go through the headache of selling more ads, more printing time to create the issue, and more work by the editors/type-setters/creative team, etc. to print one more page when the very thing that this extra page is supposed to be accomplishing...already happens?

Unless you can make a good business case to justify letter columns by proving to DC that they could support the extra advertising, still make distribution time with the issue (very important), and make more money...they will remain a part of the past.

Until then, I am more than comfortable with internet feedback and discussion.

I'd sacrifice a page of story for a letters page. That's just me, but there it is. And I'd be willing to bet that a letters page costs less than a page of story, so there's no impact to the price of the product (It sure isn't going to drop).

Part of the appeal of a letters page is that the editor/creator does pick and choose. It allows them to direct the conversation and emphasize things that they couldn't otherwise. And as I remember it, most comics did print negative letters provided the letters were well written and the writer gave them some thought. Probably not going to see any "Waid's ego killed the DNA run" letters, and that's just fine with me. With very few exceptions, the level of discourse in a good letter column exceeds what is possible on a message board.

I guess my point is that a message board doesn't replace a letters page any more than a conference call or a panel discussion at a con does. I enjoy the message boards and participate on the DC boards quite a bit, but I'd love to see the letters page return.