Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Keith Giffen musings

I'd say Keith's art definitely went in the wrong direction, but he's recently proven again at DC and Marvel that he still has the plotter/writer and layout chops. And though his art from Omen all the way thru Magic Wars was pretty awful, I did find myself enjoying it during his stint as artist on 5YL, grids and all.

Keith's a real pioneer and innovator in his own way in the comics industry, though he'll never get the recognition that Miller, Moore, Gaiman, etc. (and even Bendis and his ilk) get.

Just not a Giffen fan. For me he represents a time when DC seemed so disinterested in the Legion that they just handed the entire title over to one man and said, "whatever".

But since he seems to be such a polarizing figure I think there might be only one way to settle this matter; a tug-of-war match over a pit of GIANT BEAVERS!

Not a big fan of his artwork (his early stuff is good, but not crazy good to me).

and I just can't get into the 5YL stuff, picked up some issues in the quarter bin and only read them once (of course, I will say i don't have a straight run of anything from that era, so that is a contributing factor).

But I agree what they (Levitz and Giffen, I don't know what the work load was) did to the Emerald Empress at the end of the Baxter series was criminal, way to totally punk one of your own villains into being worthless, all respect I had for EE as a villain totally went out the window when I finally got those two issues.

All this said, my favorite arc is probably "who is Sensor Girl" so I really don't see Levitz's writing chops diminishing with Giffen's departure (btw, what issue did he first leave?)

He left for the first time after Baxter # 5, the end of the LSV arc.

I may be wrong, but I have the impression that by the time the Empress died, Giffen was doing most of the plotting. I think that Levitz's original intention to leave after Conspiracy would support this theory.

Regarding Giffen's early art, I just find something weirdly sexless about it no matter which phase he was going through. Greg LaRocque, by contrast, drew very sensual pictures.

And I agree that Levitz wrote just fine without Giffen.

I am a huge Giffen fan, but I'm not too wild about his artwork between Omen and 5YL also.

But unlike other artists like Bachalo whose art and can no longer look at, Giffen did reach a point when his metamorphosis was over and what we got was 5YL. I love his writing AND his art during his tenure in v4. Of course it's not the beautiful, crystal clear George Perez style (which I love soooo much), but it's kind of an advanced comic art - very edgy, very complex, very dark - which got me from the first moment on (v4 #13 was my first Legion issue after more than ten years break). It was the perfect fit to the very complex storyline he was telling.

I also thought that Jason pearson was a very good follow on, I love the Terra Mosaic storyline as well. What I did not like so much were the fill-ins like Colleen Doran who did just not fit into the 5YL continuity.

As for the death of Emerald Empress... seems to be some time that I read it, cause I cannot actually remember it. Seems to be proof that the story really isn't that spectacular...

I'd say its unlikely that Giffen was the driving force. The plots are classic Levitz themes.

He'd already used the idea of a villain obsessed with immortality with Lars Hanscom, before killing him off in in that awful Starfinger II storyline.

The Magic Wars plays with typical Levitz themes of science versus magic, and features a trademark Levitz-style omnipotent-villain-who-is-the-embodiment-of-a-concept-rather-than-a-character.

There are probably elements that are primarily Giffen's doing (such as Magnetic Kid's death), but it really seems like Levitz is still the driving force.

Agreed. His 5YL work I think is what really did it. He was doing no costumes, no codenames, with character work before Morrison and Bendis did. If 5YL came out today everyone would think Morrison did it...and probably love it.

That would definitely NOT be the Threeboot version, and it definitely would be the Lightning version; the Action Legion lacks a KK because their KK was was busy being featured in Countdown.

Giffen is a creative genius... but he needs someone riding the reins. Giffen by his lonesome is just too chaotic; he turns and destroys even his own creations on a whim.

Right you are. Lone Cowboy Giffen is best with one shots (preferably out of any continuity).
With a good - and I mean GOOD - Editor - that man is a genius indeed...

Sometimes it seems he just gets bored with the mundane trappings of comic lore and fandom

:rolleyes:

That's why Levitz and Giffen made a good team. Paul could impose order on the chaos. The Bierbaums at least in part functioned that way as well, but they weren't nearly as strong as far as restraining him as Levitz was. At the same Levitz really lost something without that chaotic undercurrent, and it often felt like he was just moving the pieces around without Giffen.

Much as I love Levitz and hate Giffen, I could just as easily see the death of the Emerald Empress as an error in judgement from Levitz. It wouldn't be his only one -- the worst offender IMO was Dream Girl's mind being enslaved by Atmos; that one was definitely Levitz because it was already in motion before Giffen returned.

Not EVERYONE. I still would have hated it.

Did I mention I also hate Morrison and Bendis?

Chaos is overrated...IMHO.

if he had a hand in countdown he did !

I didn't care for the Emerald Empress dying either. But I can see why Levitz did it. It was an important part of a Legionnaire he revitalized...Sensor Girl/Projectra. Also this was the end for Levitz and the Legion as we knew it. He probably knew about the 5YL and decided to give us something dramatic to some Legion lore.

I loved Giffen's early artwork. Hated his later stuff. Loved his storytelling though.

I thought the Empress's death was really well-told. There were several issues of buildup where she's searching for the secret to immortality and then the surprise ending where it's revealed that she's looking to end her immortality rather than achieve it.

On the other hand, I thought Karate Kid's death was really a stupid waste. Nemesis Kid did NOT kill him as many people mistakenly remember. After being severely beaten by NK, K Kid flew himself into one of the many power spheres that were holding Orando hostage and transporting it to another dimension and blew himself up, which accomplished exactly nothing except giving Projectra a charred corpse to dispose of. Some may argue that he knew he was dying anyway, but who knows what 30th century science or Orandoan magic could've done to save him?

Magnetic Kid's death was another stupid waste. He gives his life so the Legion can get to a planet where the Dark Mage is hiding out, only to find that he's not there after all. Then, later, the Dark Mage is defeated with no Legion involvement anyway. Legionnaires are supposed to die heroically saving lives, not running useless errands.

Sensor Girl's powers were out of the Chemical King/Tyroc/Kid Quantum handbook. They were too vague and undefined and Projectra's powers didn't need beefing up anyway. They just needed to be used effectively by the writer du jour.

Can anybody bump up the Giffen article or email it to me? I don't see a way to look up old issues on the Wizard site.

The most stupid thing about KK's death was that he was supposedly destroying the powerspheres to stop the LSV from transporting Orando into another dimension, but they go ahead and teleport it there anyway.

Honestly, he's never really been one of my favorite Legionnaires, either, and I actually enjoyed that whole scene when I read it as a kid, but it's pretty lame in retrospect.

I wasn't very satisfied with it, either, for the reason EDE points out, but also that a supposedly-dying Val was still functional enough to make a suicide run of questionable wisdom at a power sphere anyway.

The spheres still worked, and even if they didn't, they would be necessary to get Orando back to the regular universe, too.

What I hate about the death of Emerald Empress is the way it undermines the kick-ass villainess we saw in the New Fatal Five arc by having her turn out to be dominated by that bloody Eye.

The more I think about it, that seems like a sure sign that Levitz had grown sick of the Legion and decided to tear down a magnificent character he had built up from a decidedly average villainess.

I remember reading somewhere that it was Giffen who convinced Levitz to spend one more year on the book. If this is true, then maybe Giffen is to blame after all for the awfulness of that year.

What I hate about the death of Emerald Empress is the way it undermines the kick-ass villainess we saw in the New Fatal Five arc by having her turn out to be dominated by that bloody Eye.

The more I think about it, that seems like a sure sign that Levitz had grown sick of the Legion and decided to tear down a magnificent character he had built up from a decidedly average villainess.

I remember reading somewhere that it was Giffen who convinced Levitz to spend one more year on the book. If this is true, then maybe Giffen is to blame after all for the awfulness of that year.

Bad ass villians are fun. There are lots of bad ass villians in comic books. There are fewer really interesting villians. Taken as a whole, the Levitz run represents growth to me. Heroes and villians grew, changed, and evolved. Everyone was a bit more complicated, a bit more tested and tried by the end of the his run. Emerald Empress was a bad ass, power hungry, greedy, selfish woman. She chose the eye as much as it chose it her. The eye seduced her more than it dominated her. She was, alas, only human. In the end, she found her incredibly strong will being overcome by a powerful and ancient mystical force. She was strong enough and smart enough to seek out Projectra, the one person she knew who could help her. She humbled herself before Projectra in order to gain her freedom. Did she think she would be able to manipulate things so that she would be able to maintain her life and regain her freedom? Did she know the price of freedom would be her life? Was she uncertain? Did she take a chance and pay the ultimate cost? In her final moments she realized the price she had paid for her greed, and expressed graditude and respect to a woman who had been her enemy for years. I find it hard to see that as anything but powerful storytelling.

I consider the late issues of the Baxter series to be Giffen's third act. I like artists who go through phases and aren't afraid to change. Most don't have the balls to challange themselves or readers. Giffen did, and he gets nothing but repsect, from me, for doing so. His third act had a softness that his second and fourth acts lacked. He toned down some of the harsh experimental qualities that made Omen and Prophet hard to read. It was more effective stroytelling, and you can start to see the some of the elements that would be employed in the 5YL stories, which I count as some of my all time favorites.

You like growth, I don't like growth, and never the twain shall meet.

And I read superhero comics to ESCAPE from real life!

You're saying you don't like character growth in comics, Stealth? I'll acknowledge that maybe in the cases of the major icons (Superman, Batman, etc.), too much character growth can be a detriment if it makes them unrecognizable, but I'd say that any other non-iconic character is fair game for it. In fact, I'd say that's the best reason to follow "smaller" characters rather than the icons...because they can grow, change...and even die.

Jerry has an excellent point of view on the last Empress story. I was pretty fond of the story myself for the same reasons. I'm actually kind of surprised by what you said here since I know you enjoy X-Factor (which has loads of character growth), as well as the LSH (for which change has been the only constant for at least the last couple decades).