Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Spoilers - Issue # 36

Have you ever read any Greek tragedy?

That's a cool twist that I hadn't thought of until now. Maybe Nura did see this coming, but because of the nature of fate, couldn't prevent it. Remember, she wasn't able to stop KK's death in the LSV story way back when, and she doesn't know what's going to happen to Star Boy that will result in his being memorialized. She's not omniscient, just precognitive.

This is just one more thing that I'm enjoying in this storyline. I'm actually anxious for the next issue. When was the last time that happened?

Finally got the issue today, lesse, initial reactions/comments:

- Tas and KK were more on-target than last issue. The "slap" scene was good, but there's still something not quite right about Tas that I can't quite plare.... maybe it's just the art.

- Could someone explain why Brainy's implants have suddenly turned into tinfoil? They never flexed with his face before.

- If Nightwind's a fave of Gail's, fair enough for putting her in. But, given that the other cadets were extras, couldn't someone have given Dan & Andy a copy of L25 so that we could have had some consistancy at least?

- If Cham's orpocrine gland had been hit, he'd have been a statue, surely? And glands don't snap. This smacks of contrivance.

- I'm still bugged that neither Tinya nor Winema are wearing touchstones. It's not as if Tinya could conceal one in that dress, and there's an obvious spot at her neck...

- Jarth & Wildfire not being able to go down makes sense to me - go reread the opening pages of L32 and how Jarth was described there. He'd die. Although, had they been able to get Spark, she would surely have been able to go down, even if she may have been powerless. (Note that the only non-physical power we've seen working is Tas' darkfield (Which has a "get out of jail free" card for being magic) and Lantern's blasts (and being on the bad guys' side...). Jo hasn't even used his heat vision yet.

Maybe it's just that I'm not understanding what they mean by a "power source". If the spike zone is a complete dead zone for any power, then it seems to me no one could survive. Everyone's brains operate by transmitting electrical impulses.

Oh, it's very bad science. But I'm just about inured to that by now.

I just chalk it up to "science fiction". I can easily overlook something like electrical brain impulses or the torches being able to burn. Hopefully there'll be a little more explanation of what the spike really is, but I can ignore less than accurate science (I didn't really mind the "dwarf star" incident preboot either).

" If Cham's orpocrine gland had been hit, he'd have been a statue, surely? And glands don't snap. This smacks of contrivance."

Straw Man. I never said it was the Orpocrine gland.

"Oh, it's very bad science. But I'm just about inured to that by now."

Really? Perhaps you could explain why. I'm a complete science nerd, and could explain this stuff in detail pretty easily--I just don't see the value of EXPOSITION THEATER in comics where anyone could easily fill in that blank themselves. You're assuming things and then condemning the assumption, which is fine, but hardly authoritative.


For the record, I loathe junk science with a white-hot passion. I kid you not, anyone who knows me has heard me rail against fuzzy thinking and recycled myth-thought at length 'til their ears burn. I'd be willing to bet good money that you can't find an example of bad science outside of established fantasy in any of my comics, ever. To the point where I'm very uncomfortable with 'magic' characters, or even deus ex machina characters like Green Lantern. It's definitely one of the guiding principles of my life, that bad science is something that needs to be hunted down and rooted out. I follow scientists like other people follow rock stars.

I recently had someone at Millarworld complain, "why don't comic writers ever get the martial arts stuff right?" because they assumed wrongly that a character was Chinese (and would thus go by another title other than 'Sensei'), and they railed against that pretty good. That's fine, but why ASSUME that, I wonder? I do find it a bit odd. The character was from Okinawa, as stated on his first appearance, and last appearance, and I've been to China, I've takent and studied the martial art represented, I did meticulous research and in fact have met the real person that character was based on...but this guy just assumed I did no research and posted a hand-wringing message about it, oy.

I don't know...I'm not trying to be pissy, but how is something I can explain half a dozen different, perfectly rational and science-based ways bad science? I'm sure you could think of a bunch, too. You may be a chemist for all I know.

HONESTLY, I'm only trying to understand your point. How is it 'bad science?' Is there anywhere in the book that implies that organic brain impulses would be affected?

I'm fine with debate--if someone has a criticism here based on good science, let's have it. I frickin' LOVE that stuff.

Bring it on!

Gail

I do want to make it clear, Sanity, I'm not trying to pick on ya, and I've been enjoying your posts a lot, okay?

I'd just love to hear your exact complaint in-depth, if you've got the time, cool?

Thanks, if not, no worries. I'm just a science nerd.

Gail

Actually, this brings up a question I've had on my mind for a while...

If you guys had a choice, would you prefer Legion to have a stronger SF element, or a stronger superhero element, or do you prefer the mix as it has existed since the reboot?

I'm just wondering. I love the book but trying to explain why is like describing the wings of a hummingbird in flight.

Favorite Legionnaires I didn't really get to use: Triad, Xs, Invisible Kid.


Gail

Mix, certainly. Possibly leaning a bit heavier on the Sci-Fi.

And Gail - on the "inured" crack, I swear will reply to that later (probably tommorrow) when I get the time. I'm not trying to go BB on you here . On the other bit:

Whoops . That's the sort of thing that happens when you reply without the issue in front of you, after reading a long thread. I hereby retract that bit.

Actually, I suggested that as evidence that injuries to certain parts of Durlans do affect their shape-changing abilities. But who knows what kind of noise it would make if injured? It's Durlan anatomy.

Oh, and on the super-hero vs. science fiction elements, I prefer the sci-fi to enter into the background, but not to become too much a driving force of the plot. I see it as mostly facilitating the storyline and setting.

Went ahead and read the book so I could get in on this quickly-growing discussion!

Am posting my review before reading the thread...

I liked it, but not *QUITE* as much as last issue.

And I think it was the artwork. There was even less of Jurgens' influence this issue (if ANY) and it was very telling on some pages.

Storywise, things were pretty cookin'...

LOVED the Umbra/Brainy sequence! Legionnaires slapping each other is tradition, after all...! Seriously, VERY well done, and VERY Umbra.

Tinya/Trudy-- oh man, I loved that scene!

Persuader-- was he about to step on his daughter until she opened her eyes? That just wasn't very clear to me in the artwork. I quite like him here.

"Nevertheless. We stand with the Legionnaire. Understood?" Yes, it is very easy to understand well-written dialogue. Another great scene.

LOVED LOVED LOVED Chuck's role, and Nightwind was a real special treat. DnA dropped the ball with the intro of the cadets-- too many unnamed new characters, not enough of the characters people have been screaming for who hadn't appeared postboot yet. Gail went a way towards rectifying that here.

Gym'll impressed the hell out of me.

Liked the Jo/Pres Wazzo scene.

KARATE KID BUSTS LOOSE! You GO boy! "The SWEET one...". Told you all he & Andy were lovers!!

Trudy continues to impress me.

I can't help but feel the deaths of Timber Wolf & Gym'll were just unnecessary, and were only there because of the upcoming "re-imagining"... if they ARE indeed dead. Legionfolk ain't that easy to kill.

Last issue gets a 9.5 of 10 from me.

This issue gets a solid 8.5 of 10.

We might even see next issue get 10 of 10 if Jurgens does full penicls!

Gail Simone wrote:
If you guys had a choice, would you prefer Legion to have a stronger SF element, or a stronger superhero element, or do you prefer the mix as it has existed since the reboot?

I prefer the mix that's existed since DnA, i.e., a sci-fi LOOK with strong superhero fantasy elements. Some readers have accused them of "junk science", and that may be true, but I don't care a whit because this particular comic book is (and never should) be tied too closely to reality, IMHO. And who's to say the laws of science work the same way in a fictional, futuristic universe that leaves room for COMPUTO and the Miracle Machine. Magic, monsters, insane gods, time travel and dei-ex-machina are beloved and integral aspects of Legion lore -- much more so than real-world science.

On super-heroes versus science fiction:

The best Legion stories had liberal uses of both, particularly during the ADVENTURE run. Edmond Hamilton, in particular, had a way of sneaking some scientific principle into the story, teaching as well of entertaining the reader. I miss that sense of discovery, which was all but abandoned by the '70s.

The current mix doesn't really include much science fiction, in my opinion. It seems more science fantasy. These guys go to other planets and fly and do cool stuff, but there's no real scientific principle (real or imagined) behind it. DnA did their best with hypertaxis, but that was too large a concept, I think; the characters seemed to get lost in the enormity of it all (no small feat when we're talking Legion!). I did like what DnA did with Robotica and Colu, but they never really developed this, either.

Since the Legion is both a super-hero and a science fiction book, I'd say whoever writes it should play to their own strengths. Don't try to force sci fi into the book if that's not your bag.

I enjoy the mix. As long as the writer can present some sci-fi element that's convincing enough to be interesting rather than seem like a big plot contrivance, I'm all for it (I don't need stories based on science fiction or even science fact completely explained to me -- I had no problem watching "Apollo 13" without understanding the mechanics of space travel, but I could go along with the notion that they figured out how to send three men to the moon).

One of the good things about the Legion is that any given adventure can go either way.

I count myself as a fan of junk-science.

I love cellular trim rays, miracle machines and crazy, stupid theories that work. That kinda stuff really tickles me.

As for sci-fi VS. super-heroes; I like a nice mixture. I think historically, there's always been a fair amount of both in Legion.

I care more about consistency than the application of "actual" science.

The central problem with any science fiction, it seems to me, is that it's likely to ended up seeming very dated as the actual progress of science abandons old theories in favor of new ones.

So, I guess I'm willing to buy that, by the 31st century, they'll have cellular trim rays and the whatnot. Something else else like hypertaxis bothers me more, just because it doesn't seem consistent with other things we've seen in the Legion or in the rest of the DCU.

Just read the issue and the first question that came to mind, which may have already been raised last issue, is this. Why aren't the flight rings working? I can understanding the communication and beacon part not working but the flight provided by the ring is supposed to be from an element. If the 'spike' caused elements to lose their properties then everyone would basically be dead wouldn't they?

And to answer Gail's question of super-heroes vs. science fiction I have to say I lean towards the science fiction. It was what drew me into the Legion. That they just weren't super-heroes. And while I love the junk science stuff like Lash I prefer to have it believable, a real basis in science even if we aren't at a point where we could do it ourselves.

Compared to last issue I liked this one more. Just the interactions and the story-telling flowed easier, to me. And I loved seeing the 'crazy' Brainy come out. The art on his look rocked in my book. So far this is holding up as the best thing yet in this series.

Well, the element by itself is just weightless, right? It doesn't "naturally" grant the power of directed flight. Lyle must have created some serious auxiliary tech that lets it extend that antigrav field to the wearer; redirect the field to let you fly in whatever direction; and read your mental commands. Within the Spike zone, the ring's just jewelry with a floating bit of metal inside.

On the Spike itself--maybe it only damps energy flows that are sufficiently strong, or are vulnerable in some way that the energy pathways inside organic folks aren't. That's not particularly unbelievable; electromagnetic pulses fry electronics, but don't do much to organic nervous systems because our nerves aren't nearly as conductive as metal.

I'm more curious as to how the Spike was created. Obviously we haven't actually seen how this Canary's power works, but I find Canary Cry + Precognition = Power Outage a little confusing. Perhaps the Spike doesn't actually damp power, but rather drains it into the future via Nura's ability? Hopefully we'll hear more about that soon.

Sci-fi vs. super-heroes: I think the sci-fi element is more important to me in the case of the Legion. They're not "superheroes" so much as the heroes of a superpowered universe: exceptional not for their power, but for how they use the power and resources available to almost anyone in the 31st century. They're a flashier version of the Star Trek crew, basically.

As to the quality of the science, I'm quite happy to see a serious speculative future, *or* a junk science fantasy with Cellular Trim Rays, but I prefer them not to be mixed into the same story. The writer ought to decide whether they're doing Space Fantasy Comedy Legion or Hard SF Legion beforehand.

Not that the Legion has ever been in danger of being labeled as Hard SF.

I also enjoyed this issue more than the last; the characterization rang true all the way through and the story just keeps getting richer.

Didn't Jan make a "flight ring metal alloy" stretcher one issue? And is that completely irrelevant or what?

Good point by Silicon Beaver. I know the Element 152 metal the rings are made of floats, but is the metal itself or the tech inside what channels the wearer's 'will power' or whatnot to fly? I can see it being part of the tech Lyle used, thus robbing the Legion true flight as they can't control where they go, but I'm open to almost any options with this one.

I still think it would have been fun to see the flight rings fail, but have T-Wolf's ring finger or hand still dangling above him when he fell due to the anti-grav metal.

Somebody, Jan's rescue with the flight ring alloy (Legionnaires #67) is relevent in my opinion. Didn't Element Lad have to push the stretcher out, later aiding Ferro's help, instead of simply touching the metal and willing it to float out of the cavern? I don't have the issue at hand, but it sounds like support for the metal providing anti-gravity instead of directed flight.

When it comes to Lialla calling calling Val "Mr. Armorr" it might have been a respect thing: she doesn't know him well enough to call him Val, and might have felt "Karate Kid", because of the "Kid" part, not respectful enough given Val is an older teen at least, and bringing in a scary villain all my his lonesome, as far as she knows - although Jo helped him catch him, I seem to recall.

Or maybe she just blanked on his name, I do that kind of thing ALL the time!

The "Mr. Armorr" thing could very well be a way of distancing herself, as well. She might not be too comfortable with the idea of getting too close to "that boy" herself.

As for the balance of science fiction versus superheroism in Legion stories...

I think that when the Legion first began - I mean really first began - part of their concept was meant to be wonder at all the things advances in technology would make mundane to the people of the future which were amazing to the folks in Smallville. Granted, back then the Legion was from the 21st century! We're there now, folks, and while on the one hand we don't have miracle machines, for example, and no one is living on the moon, we have made some really world-altering advances which those writers couldn't have predicted.

The tricky thing with science fiction is that it is, after all, based on science, and sometimes showcasing a really nifty theory and then having that theory disproven can have serious ramifications for the fictional world. With, say, a single novel, you can write it off as saying "in this reality, it worked", but it's a little harder with a continuous serialized story like the Legion, because one characters might be based on the principle, and another based on the theory that replaces it.

I think with science fiction aspects in the Legion's setting, the amazing technology and the fabulous things from strange planets should be ubiquitous. The Legionnaires and supporting cast should take much of their daily conveniences for granted, the way I take my fridge, my oven, my Playstation 2, telephones, cars, streetlights, neon and synthetic fabrics for granted. They shouldn't be completely jaded to new and wondrous things, after all the ingenuity of sentient beings is ever fruitful. But I think that the technology should remained largely unexplained unless it's going to be important to the plot, for the most part.

Really, the Legionnaires are superheroes in a science fiction world. I appreciate that this incarnation of the Legion were not kids making a club to be like 20th century superheroes in a mostly utopian world just for the heck of it. In the original it really seemed like superheroes just weren't around anymore, they were gone the way of sword dueling and horses as transport, and suddenly came back into vogue with these superteens who used natural powers for a heroic purpose. The future of 2995 and beyond is a future that acknowledges that for every advance in technology there can be one which has consequences, that there are unscrupulous people who will use others just to get ahead in sometimes horrific ways (I still shudder at what Tinya found powering that ship), and that not everyone will use their powers for the greater good.

All of this is why the universe needs superheroes. SiliconDream is right in that the Legion are the heroes of a superpowered universe; they are people who use powers, some of which are simply natural to their respective species, and other people have these powers but don't use them for the same things. Part of the difference is that they are a team with many different powers and talents, working together in a way a group of people with all the same powers (example: a group of Braalians) can't quite match.

However, "superhero" has more than one meaning. (According to Merriam-Webster ) one is "a fictional hero having extraordinary or superhuman powers", which all members of the Legion are, as they all have a unique extraordinary ability. However, the second definition is "an exceptionally skillful or successful person", and this must apply as well. The difference between a superhero and a super-powered person is what they do with the powers/abilities they have. Other Braalians use their magnetic powers to get a beer out of the fridge without getting off the couch, but the superhero Cosmic Boy uses his to stop speeders from crashing into orphanages. That sort of thing.

Superheroes do things that ordinary people could, but don't because they don't think of it, they don't want to, or they don't think they can. I can run, but I'm not a track athlete. Maybe I could be a track star if I tried, but I haven't. And I haven't tried because I don't want to dedicate my life to that. The Legionnaires do dedicate their lives to saving others. They practice with their powers, they hone their bodies and their minds, and then they regularly fling themselves into danger. That makes them stars. That makes them superheroes.

And in the technology coddled 31st century, that makes them extraordinary, because they rely on their natural gifts so much. Someone with telepathic earplugs couldn't replace Imra. Someone with a really big magnet couldn't replace Rokk. Someone with a cattle prod couldn't replace Garth. They use technology in everyday life, but they don't rely on it to win the day, or to save lives.

Think of how that looks to the rest of the galaxy. Tantamount to seeing, for the very first time, a man lifting a bus with one hand? Maybe a little scary, awe-inspiring? The Legion is special in a time when entire civilisations have superpowers, and technology can do so very much. They are superheroes in a science fiction world, and all the more special for it.

Ultimately, being a superhero comes down to that dedication, that self-sacrificing drive that is the core of heroism. It's a drive that springs from deep-seated reactions, beliefs, traits - and of course, any sacrifice has it's cost. But they are Legion, and they have each other to understand the cost, and to share it. Even though "human" does not apply to all of them, it is their humanity which gives the stories depth. Without it, we are left with wonder at the advanced technology of their time, sure, and awe at their powers, but the impact really comes from empathising with the characters. Yes, Ayla can step through a portal to distant worlds. Yes, she can electrocute you until you're crispy. But she still gets irritated if you interrupt her, she still smiles when she smells her favourite flower, she still cries when bad things happen to her family, and she still wants to be loved.

So, that's what I want. Superheroes in a science fiction world. But, I agree with He Who Wanders that a writer should go with their strengths, and obviously just from the variety of responses to the question already, people want different things - not surprising, since we're legion, too.