Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Powers, an in-depth discussion

368 an interesting story because it reveals a lot of honest undercurrent in the Legion, even though the Ambassador forces things to the nth degree.

This is were we first see Violet grow to a giant ~ later seen post-boot for a much longer time.
I disliked the whiny shrinker, scared of everything, so I enjoyed every time she could be something more.

This is were Tinya is able to turn others into phantoms and hold solid objects while she's in phantom form.

We see Jeckie us solid illusions, too.

Shady is shown with enhanced shadows and able to hold Lightning Lad over her head.
Maybe that's were the idea of her extraordinary strength comes from.
She doesn't show it anywhere else during the first boot that I've seen yet.

Lu can become thousands, which might be where the 3boot idea for her origin came from.

The others are just stronger at what the already do with Kara also being immune to kryptonite, too.

It might be fun to have some sort of Thora card where if it's drawn, the girls have temporary power increases and can't work the boys. Role the dice to see how long the powers last and/or the level of power increase. (Just a thought.)

Issues 369 - 370 are the Mordru story with the shadows cast to protect the others from magical detection.
It's the first time that people react with terror/panic with her power.
This happens often with her shadows, really.
During the Darkseid run, her shadows confused his minions.
That may be where the idea came from to have the connection to a Dark Realm.

I have some more documentation to record for her early power run. The Tyroc story though is the only significant story in the Archives that I found.

Umbra is a much more interesting character ~ in fact, most of the female characters are more interesting after the 5 year gap, imo.

The Umbra origin issue is called Legends of the Legion no. 3 of 4 April 98.
The story is by Kitson, Peyer, Martinex and Rodriguez with the cover by Steve Lightle.

She's not very well liked and has quite an attitude.
The story she tells is to a visiting group of children who all look exactly like the Subs at 6.

From birth she was taken from her mother by a priest who looked a lot like Stargrave and put through rigorus training that made her a very cold but highly functional weapon.
She felt a part of her past and one with her ancestors.
When her mother died, Tasmia went to the cave for the Shadow Rite where she was met by her mother's spirit and the rest of her family.
Her mom says she should have asked how her mother died. Another says that Artic Spiders of the east pole sliced her open like a fish, UNLEASHING the shadows that in turn destroyed them.

This is the idea I memtioned about the Mallors containing and controling the shadows rather then generating them, like lightning or magnetism.

They call it the Shadow Legacy and that she can be the last and greatest of the line.

When the ship came, she and her leaders thought it was an invader so she ran out to meet them.
It was the Federation but she couldn't understant the words he spoke or didn't want to.
She certainly wanted to keep Talok free from mixing with others.

She attacks with fists and darkness and the 'lightpulse relays' of the computer systems go dead.
That's a great effect with laser optics and not used previously.
The elite force sent against her was way to slow. She uses great tactics but can't stop the sonar.
She's so fast though that she reaches the bridge and casts her shadowsinto the control displays, and the ship crashes.

That's a pretty dramatic effect in a world/universe run of light!
They couldn't use it in the 60's and 70's but it should be a huge effect in our time period ~ even moreso in hers.

I'll get the Tyroc numbers tonight and look through the DnA stories.

There was a story in the reboot, where a surgeon comes to Ferro Lad and proposes a way for his disfigured face to look normal. It would involve him turning to iron and then using welding tools, reshape his face. The catch was that he would never be able to turn back into flesh. Andrew turns down the procedure after some soul searching.

This say to me that when in his iron/invulnerable & superstrong form, he loses the sense of feeling that his flesh form gives him. As Hypno Lad said.

Super Speed, this seems like one really super power. I've seen the Flash tap several bad guys on the chin in what appears to be essentially one fluid action. I suspect Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-el, and Ultra Boy can do this as well but I would like conformation of this. Have they been seen doing this? If they can't, why not? Combine super speed with super strength and its a lot to consider.

Currently, I'm thinking about giving each character a number of actions equal to their Speed score divided by 3 (rounding fractions upward).

Feeble: Would get 1 action
Average: Would get 2 actions
Excellent - Astonishing: This is where most non-super speed Legionnaires would fall into, would receive 3 actions each.
Super: Such as the Flash (possibly Superboy, Mon-el, and Ultra Boy would receive 5 actions.

Alternatively, I could divide the character's Speed score by 2 in order to upgrade the number of actions possible.

Feeble: Would allow 1 action
Average: Would allow 3 actions
Excellent - Astonishing: Where non-super speed Legionnaires fall into, would get 4-5 actions when it is their turn.
Super: Flash, Superboy, Mon-el, Ultra Boy, would receive 8 actions.

I'm leaning towards the second option. One question I have though is would the Flash, Superboy, Mon-el, and Ultra Boy be about the same? I want to place the Legionnaires below the Flash because I think that it sort of undermines the World's Fastest Man if I don't. On the other hand, if they have the same power, they should be treated equally.

An action can be an attack, move, or defense. Thus someone with Super Speed who runs across an area and taps bad guys on the chin would use one action for moving, and the remaining actions for attacks and defenses.

If they forgo their ability to defend they must rely on their Luck (another attribute score) to avoid being hit. I would think that Super-Speed in itself would serve as a type of defense and therefore I may consider moving at Super-Speed sort of a free defense (it doesn't count against your normal number of available actions).

I was going to impose penalties to subsequent attacks and defenses; thus even though a character gets to attempt more actions in a round, each attack and defense becomes more difficult. If I don't do this I think those with Super-Speed will totally dominate the game.

Now that you have an idea of how I'm thinking of handling the number of actions in a round, do you think it will work with Super Speed?

Do Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-el, and Ultra have the same kind of Super Speed as the Flash, thus allowing them to hit several opponents when that players turn comes up in the game?

Would they be rated about the same as the Flash or should they be higher or lower in their Speed score? Remember, the scale goes from 1-19. I'm using 4-5 (average human), 7-9 (Average Legionnaire in non-super powered stat), and 15 (Superboy Strength) as basic measuring guidlines.

I do recall reading a comic many years ago 1977-1979 I'd say, possibly DC Present perhaps?) where Superman and the Flash had a foot race around the globe. I can't recall how the race ended but I know it was close. Anybody remember that story?

Excuse my stream-of-consciousness ramblings, I had no luck formatting these thoughts coherently...


Technically, Kryptonians and Daxamites have super-speed that's been portrayed at Flash-like levels, when there isn't an actual speedster around, but when a speedster like the Flash is on the team, Superman, etc. never actually use their super-speed.

I think it's kind of a niche protection thing. Speed is the Flash's only 'thing,' and if Superman regularly showed him up with it, the Flash would end up looking like a chump.

In game terms, super-speed, or any power / ability that gives one player multiple actions in a round, while another player has only one, is problematic, both for balance reasons and because it's just plain not fun for the people who are still on their first action, while Fast Eddie is finishing up his seventh action and has monopolized 30 minutes of a combat round that takes 35 minutes (and would have gone a lot faster if Fast Eddie didn't have seven actions)...

In the case of characters like the Flash and Kid Flash in the Teen Titans, super-speed quite often merely allowed Wally or Bart or whomever to get into massive trouble before the rest of the team even arrived, and sometimes led to the rest of the team having to save their speedster when they finally caught up. Which is the second 'game problem' with speedsters. Gaming, like being a character in a horror movie, is better when the group doesn't split up, both because the challenges of the game may have been designed to challenge the group, or a particular skill or ability that the speedster doesn't have, and because, once again, the rest of the players end up standing around holding their cheese while Fast Eddie runs around pretty much playing a completely different game all by himself.

In comic books, the narrative can artificially 'slow down' a speedster and keep him with the group (witness all the cover shots of the Flash running really really fast, and just keeping up with Batman, or Kid Flash being shown on a cover alongside the Teen Titans, even though he's got red streaks trailing behind him, and yet Robin seems to be keeping up just fine...). Once a player is actively and intelligently playing a speedster, there's little reason he's going to be in the same time zone as the rest of the party, which can be a huge problem in a game. (This isn't just a super-speed problem. If one character can fly, and everyone else can't, it can be a problem. If one character is aquatic, and everyone else isn't, again, party splits up and Fish-Girl is off having a solo adventure. Shadowrun is horrible for this sort of thing, having mages that go astral (and leave their party behind) and cyberdeckers that go into cyberspace (and leave their party behind) and riggers who drive enormous vehicles (while the rest of their party sits in their enormous vehicle and gets to bounce around and complain about his driving).) There really isn't a great solution to this problem, other than to encourage your speedster (decker / teleporter / etc) players to stick with the group, as much as possible and remind them what happens to characters in a horror movie who go off to explore on their own...

Mutants & Masterminds at least addresses the multiple actions issue by allowing a speedster to take a couple of different attack actions, one to perform a 'rapid-fire' attack on a single target (something Northstar does occasionally, punching someone a thousand times really fast, to make up for not having any super-strength) which would allow a speedster to mimic having super-strength, for punching purposes, or to allow a speedster to make a single normal-strength attack on multiple targets in an area, allowing him to pull a popular Flash stunt and smack (or disarm) a dozen thugs in a single action.

Using these two options, the speedster is still making multiple attacks, but is doing it in such a way as to minimize the amount of game-time (and dice-rolling) that he's monopolizing. Fast Eddie rolls to punch every one of Monsterminds twisted goons and his roll is compared against their defense / armor class / whatever and he damages the appropriate number of them. Then Slick Sally can go. She doesn't have to wait for Fast Eddie to take his next six actions, he's already punched twelve thugs with a single roll. Same effect when he uses his rapid-fire punch. Fast Eddie smacks Omegatron, whose metal body would normally be immune to Fast Eddie's mere human strength, but since he hits him a hundred times in a second, he does damage as if he's super-strong. Again, he only rolls once, and Strong Sam can go next, without sitting around twiddling his thumbs while Fast Eddie rolls a bunch of attacks.

Defensively, most speedsters seem to be utterly hapless when caught unawares. (Spiderman, not technically a speedster, is a counter-example, having a danger sense and fast enough reactions to dodge bullets. Few actual *speedsters* have this sort of thing, and a dude with a baseball bat can whack them over the head while they aren't looking.) Villains & Vigilantes (and GURPS) handled a 'speedster defense' by giving foes a penalty to strike a foe, based on how fast he was travelling in that round. I would probably give a speedster the ability to make use of this sort of 'defense' while staying in one hex or square, as the speedster should be able to focus his attention on a single dude with a sword and be utterly untouchable, moving out of the way faster than the swordsman can swing his sword.

Combining the effects of super-speed with super-strength and invulnerability, Mon-El or Superboy could utterly walk through the entire Legion of Super-Villains (barring Ol-Vir) without a scratch on them. None of the LSV would even get an action, they'd all be super-unconscious (if not super-dead) in a single Mach 12 punch able to shatter a planet. If Ol-Vir (or Prime) went first, he could do the same thing to most of the Legion of Super-Heroes, which is yet another reason why the KryptoDaxamites are rarely shown making use of their super-speed. As a comic-book character, they can just be counted on to 'forget' that they can take a single action to punch every super-villain within 4 miles in the head faster than they can even see it coming. But a player in a game will not be so considerate, which can be a problem. Ultra Boy doesn't have this problem, really, because he can't Ultra-Speed and do anything else at a time (other than fly with his ring).

In a game system based off of point-totals, where some sort of 'balance' is attempted, Superboy and Mon-El both are terribly 'unbalanced' for team play. Again, in comics, where a single writer controls the narrative, and the characters will act as dumb as they need to (including standing around not doing anything, a frequent problem with the Clark Kent of Smallville) to advance the story.

In a game, Superboy could snatch the axe out of Persuaders hand, toss Validus to the moon, wrap Mano up in steel, with only his hands exposed and unable to touch anything, kick the Emerald Eye into the sun, and lightly tap Tharok on the forehead, knocking him unconscious, in less than a second, long before the Fatal Five even knew that he was in the solar system, let alone about to attack them. But that would be 'cheap' and 'anticlimactic' and lack drama. So instead, he stands around like a tool while the Persuader slices him with his axe and everyone looks all horrified that Superboy can be cut. Then, with Superboy damaged and everyone surprised, the Fatal Five can actually get a few licks in.

While it's easy to say that having Krytonians or Daxamites in a team that also have kids who can turn invisible and lasses who can make it shadowy tends to make them look like chumps, it's actually Superboy and Mon-El that are made to look like chumps, as they are required by the writers to stand around not using their powers, or forgetting that they have them entirely (with superspeed being the biggest offender here), so that the rest of the team actually gets an action and it doesn't end up looking like that Waid issue where three Legion teams report back complaining to Cosmic Boy that they were handling things just fine, when Supergirl flew in and fixed *everything* all by herself, leaving them wondering why they got out of bed that morning. (Kudos to Waid for pointing that out in text. His Supergirl, at least in that issue, acted like an intelligent person, and didn't stand around looking confused while people who move a thousand times slower than her did stuff around her.)

I vaguely recall Superman and the Flash having multiple 'races.' (In one, the Flash had an amulet given to him by Green Lantern that created a green bridge under him, so that he could run over water, which, back then, he couldn't do.) Superman, in that particular 'race,' was able to keep up with the Flash *while swimming.* (Flash running on his green energy bridge.) And I'm sure there are countless other portrayals were Flash is significantly faster. It's completely arbitrary, and I'd say you're perfectly in the clear to make either of them faster, or both of them equally fast, or, given how infrequently it's used (and the utter dearth of it being used *effectively*) sharply reduce Krypto-Daxamite 'super-speed' to just the ability to move really fast for short spurts.

Set, this was a very informative post and I really appreciate you taking the time to write it. I knew there were going to be issues that need addressing to make Super Speed work decently in the game and not allow it to become a game breaker.

I really like the idea of shoving multiple attack from a speedster into a single die roll. This will be the first direction I go. I think the trick is to make it "seem" like the Speedster is really doing something awesome in the game without watering them down to much.

At this point in time I'm considering having the Speedster make one atack roll when they are hitting multiple opponents who are similar (essentially minions). In order to help express multiple blows I thought I would have them add or multiply (I need to sit down and figure out the math) their damage.

The other idea I wanted to go with (and this will probably seem pretty restricting and odd from a game point of view) is addressing the fact that in the comics, certain individuals like Superboy and Mon-el end up standing around letting others do the work when you and I both know with their powers they could wrap up the battle in a heartbeat without the other Legionnaires.

One of the game mechanics I'll be including are personality and racial qualities. The personality qualities will be actual mechanics which allow die rolls, bonuses, or penalties when certain events come up in the game (for example, if Phantom Girl is threatened, Ultra Boy would help her first even if it isn't the best thing for him to be doing at the moment, he's over-protective).

Using this basic concept, what do you think of having a personality quality for guys like Superboy and Mon-el which allows them to want to play nicely and let their fellow Legionnaires help out, thus they frequently hold back. When the player wants to really cut loose with the character they would have to make a die roll to determine if they could. Modifiers would be applied to help ensure that in really severe crisis, the character/player can act freely so as to not let people needlessly get hurt or killed.

The only thing I'm really concerned about here is if someone rolled up a Speedster and didn't select that personality quality. Of coarse I will only have 1-2 players in reality so I won't ever have to worry about this, but still, a person tries to make the game as good as possible.

Your thoughts?

Grimbor the Chainman and Charma apparently have received very little attention in the Legion of Super-Heroes. I'm going to be fleshing out the two as minor bad guys just to give the combat a trial run. At this point, Charma had been taken to Takron Galtos for a crime. Grimbor the Chainsman had been brought in to determine a better way to hold her or neutralize her power. During this time a prison break erupted, with Saturn Queen (in disquise) manipulating various inmates and Takron Galtos officials to instigate the situation. Needless to say, this is how Grimbor and Charma meet. Now that the Legionnaires have arrived I need to get a handle on their powers in order to go somewhere with this.

From what I gather, Charma's power generates when she speaks and most likely when she chooses to activate it. The only comic I've seen it used in is Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #221. Since this is the only story it appears she actively participated in I don't have much to go on in regards to how her power works.

I'm assuming that she could affect several males and not just one at a time. I'd expect that its possible someone could succeed at not being affected by her power as well.

In game terms (at this point in time) she speaks, makes a power roll and the target gets a Psyche check to resist. The more they fail by the worse it is for them, the more they succeed by, the easier it is to avoid further suggestions from her. I didn't really want to make it a black and white (save and succeed) sort of power because I think saving would happen way to often and it would get a bit repetitive. Thus I'm opting for a save for now but save again in a moment or two when she uses her power again. If you fall for her power then the effectiveness is based on how poorly you failed.

Thus far, Invisible Kid had no problem saving. The power wasn't worked out in any shape or form though so I had to wing it. Now that I've got some time to actually write up the power I want to have some concrete ideas so that its effective, interesting, yet not game crippling (I only got 2 players).

Grimbor will be facing off with Phantom Girl. Does he have a "One chain does it all" or a separate chain for each opponent? What are the limits on whom his chains can bind? I have issue #277-278 (but not #279) where Grimbor is capturing the Legionnaires at his castle and we are learning the identity of Reflecto. (I use to have issue #279 but my evil brother sold it). What happened in issue #279 that would help me understand his power with chains and locks? Can he whip out a chain that would hurt Phantom Girl?

The currently situation is that the prison break has been going on for awhile and the Legionnaires have been called in. When Invisible Kid and Phantom Girl arrived, they see Grimbor swinging a chain around his head and deflecting gun attacks from science police officers who were trying to capture Charma and other escaped inmates. Invisible Kid took Charma out by hitting her from behind and PG is about to confront Grimbor.

Not to stop you from building Charma however you want, but my impression from Superboy #221 was that Charma's power was on all the time and she couldn't help it. Men instinctively wanted to do whatever she said and women instinctively hated her. But it's true that men can't do whatever she says until she says something, if you see what I mean.

I agree that she could affect more than one person; I think she affected whoever was around.

I was looking at the issue closer after I posted and they show Grimbor covering his eyes so that he is not affected by her power. Also when she uses her power they draw that little purple crown like aura around her head. The aura isn't there when she apparently isn't using her power. This gives me the impression she can turn it on and off. Based on the background story she provides about being mistreated by the head mistress and later being beaten by the other girls at the school, her "female's hating her drawback" is constant and uncontrollable, not to mention got worse as she grew up.

Thoughts?

Mathew, what are your thoughts on Grimbor?

I think Grimbor has higher-than-normal strength, although not necessarily super-strength, and that he can build whatever locks-and-chains type stuff that the story needs him to build. (If I was simulating him in Champions I'd give him a variable power pool with the limitations OAF and that it had to be lock-and-chain themed, not fragile, change between adventures.)

Figured I'd be safe and throw up a spoiler tag:

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">A lot of people were talking about Shadow Lass draining Kryptonian/Daxamite stored solar power - Lo3W just confirmed this application, in case it hadn't been confirmed yet.</span></span>