Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Tinya and Luornu: Their introduction and the social consequences for the LSH!

This is something I hope to start a series of, so, er, I hope no one goes and steals my thunder or something and starts another one of these! Thanks!

So…as the history of the LSH progressed, members kept being introduced, especially in the early years. If you think about it though, the introduction of each new member must have had social consequences for the group as a whole—especially as seen in relation to other events occurring at that time both in terms of Legionnaire-related things (re: Death of Lightning Lad) or social things (re: Jo and Tinya start going out).

Having historical hindsight is also beneficial, as we know later how things turned out and can make some connections that might not be self-evident early on.

Of course, what the writer intended when he wrote something could by and large be entirely inconsequential. Who cares if they meant for Luornu and Tinya to be good friends and maybe Vi feel a little left out? It sure might seem like that with 40 years of retrospect and character development!

So, these will a lot briefer in the beginning, but I hope they garner interest:

Phantom Girl and Triplicate Girl

The two of them joining would not have changed the chemistry of the group that much, since there were only three before that. If anything, though, I can see these things occurring immediately:

1. The Founders begin to naturally be bound together more often, since they have a previous relationship. In direct relationship, Tinya and Luornu would strike up an immediate friendship, since both are non-founders in such a small group.

2. Saturn Girl begins her reputation as an ice queen. I can easily see Imra beginning to push away from other members, which would cause these new females, particularly because they were both female and would expect more empathy, to wonder why she was such an ‘iron butt’. I do think, however, that this really didn’t start happening until later on, but the foundations for it were immediate as soon as there was new members.

3. With new girls, you would expect to see possible new chemistry between members. However, I expect Cos was so caught up in the founding and creating of the Legion, that he never gave much thought to dating Tinya or Luornu. Not that either girl minded though, since they probably were too. I also really believe that Imra and Garth really did fall in love very early on, and Garth never gave much thought to dating anyone else on the team, just like I don’t think Imra ever much thought to being with Cos (this is preboot).

4. I also think that Luornu had the ‘girl next door’ bit to her right away, and Tinya had the ‘most popular girl’ quality, but they also were close friends. From here on in, girls that joined would be hard-pressed to follow the lead of these two, with Tinya at the lead. And the boys would be wise not to cross them.

*I should also mention that I consider all of these Legionnaires to be extremely likeable, and don’t have anything against any of their characters. In fact, I think all of the Silver Age Legionnaires were extremely likeable. But I’m sure there were some social dynamics in a group of 20+ teens.

Thoughts on the social dynamic when Tinya and Lu joined? I hope long posts don’t drive people away…

Lu=Betty
Tinya=Veronica

I agree with that. Same dynamic except for fighting over the same boy. But that's why the Adventure era wasn't the Archie Legion.

You know, I never thought about the idea that part of Saturn Girl's image can be attributed to the fact that she's not really part of the "girl's clique" that's founded when Tinya and Lu join, being a founder and everything, but also different from the other founders in being female. That's a really interesting insight, Cobie.

I have similar thoughts for just about every LSHer! I got really into thinking about it the other night for some reason and couldn't wait to share.

Things were happening so quickly in those early days, did Tinya and Lu even have much time to impact things before the NEXT newbie came along and caused a stir?

Well they had a little more time than the Founders did between when they (Lu and Tinya) joined and when the next three did.

The Legion was founded on 1/6/2973 (that's January 6th for you backwards Europeans ). Lu and Tinya joined on 3/3/2973 (my 981st wedding anniversary).

Reep, Lyle and Gim then joined up on July 10th that same year.

I do think there must have been some impact by Tinya and Lu, although I'm sure that as the group got larger, the impact felt by each new member was felt more. By the time Gym and Cham came, which was fairly quickly, I do think Tinya and Lu were the type of people to have settled into specific roles in the LSH for the early days.

But you do have a point Lash, things moved so quick then that I don't think the impact was massive. But the Tinya/Lu clique I think set the foundation for almost a pecking order of other Legion girls (sans Imra) for a little while, at least until after Ayla.

That'll be our topic for tomorrow that I start!

There was also the 'larger world' social consequences of breaking the 'one superheroine to a team' convention.

Black Canary (on two different teams!), Scarlet Witch, Crystal, Lilith and Polaris were 'seconds' on their respective teams... but three heroines on one team... unheard of! But it was a couple hundred or a thousand years in the future... wouldn't have happened, otherwise.

Cool topic, Cobie-- I remember when the reboot-that-was began, I wanted to spend a little more time with just the founders and Lu and Tinya... though I was impatient as anyone else to see my 'favorites' survive the transition.

If Garth and Imra were already focused on each other (which I'm not so sure about, really-- I don't think Imra was really *into* Garth till he 'died'...), it would make sense for Cosmic Boy to be friendlier with the newcomers. I agree the founders would probably spend a lot of time together, but of the three, I'd guess that it'd be Rokk who'd be friends with Lu and Tinya.

Then again, Garth was shown to be a bit of a flirt... and I can't imagine that Imra would make *no* overtures to the new superheroines.

Wasn't it Lu, Tinya and Imra that appeared to Kara as her "super-girlfriends"?

I wonder bet Imra lost to be forced to join Lu & Tinya on that little escapade?

I'm sure that Imra thought nothing of having these new girls arrive. I'm sure she knew that several new members would be joining the team, they'd all be tested and fall into place. Being "girlfriends" was never a priority for Imra, so if Lu and Tinya buddied up, that'd be no problem for Imra. Later, as she found herself lumped in with all the other girls, Imra would try to fit in, discussing fabrics, etc, but this was never her comfort zone. Later we know that Imra never became one of the "girlfriends." Her closest female relationship would be with Ayla, her sister-in-law. We all know about Imra's "Ice Maiden" and "Iron Butt" reputation, otherwise.

Also, I don't think of Tinya and Lu ever really becoming that close. Tinya was the type of girl who respected skill, power. I think of her as holding everyone to a very high standard, their very best. She'd accept Lu for what she was worth, and be friendly to Lu, but never really close.

Luornu was always full of doubt about her place in the Legion, however, she held in there and maintained herself, and had an illustrious career, personifying the idea that it doesn't require great power to be a good Legionnaire. Meanwhile, with her attractive personality, she became very well liked and popular.

I'm sure that the boys were very well aware of these beautiful girls. Certainly they ogled over Imra. I can imagine Cos dating both girls, and have it go bad. This could lead to a "no dating" rule, later changed (in order to be more realistic) to the no marriage rule. Garth, of course, would not want to stray from his eye on Imra.

I believe that the glamour and prestige of the Legion increased incredibly when the girls joined. Then, it got even bigger and more impressive as each new member joined. Naturally, there could be no bigger change in Legion history than when Superboy (and Supergirl) joined!

Do we really see much of the Lu-Tinya friendship in the Adventure Era? I know it's mentioned in Levitz (v3 #51, as I recall), but I'm not really keying into any scenes of the two of them together.

Hm...v3 #51 kind of cemented that idea in my head. I'll have to look. But I assume they would be, especially early on, with only Imra as the other girl. This, of course, may have changed when others joined and various things happened over the years. But for these early months, I can easily see them being the in-crowd, and setting themselves up to be that way for when later heroes joined.

Tinya was in Lu's wedding party, and Imra was her maid of honor. That's really the first hint I recall that these girls had any sort of personal relationship.

Could you guys use a fresh view? I've just read the silver age stuff for the first time. I've also studied team dynamics from a workplace perspective in school.

A founder's clique or Lu/Tinya joining at the same time is not really important from a interpersonal dynamic POV in a team of only five members.

The tipping point where this changes is the "super girlfriends issue". Though Imra is not really portrayed icy/take charge until Adventure 304, I think her withdrawal from the team starts when Brainy joins because I see B5 and SG having similar personality types and interests (science etc). This is also the point where a Lu/Tinya friendship would take the lead as the alpha legion girls.

This will maybe be more appropriate when Cobie gets to Brainy and Supergirl's joining, but this discussion has prompted me to wonder about the motives for Imra, Lu and Tinya journeying back in time to offer membership to Supergirl.

Maybe each of the girls was dissatisfied in their friendships with the others and saw Kara as being the puzzle-piece that would make everything fit.

She shared intellect with Saturn Girl, resolve with Phantom Girl... hmmm- what with Triplicate Girl?

Innocence.

Good comments and insight all around! I think there is loads to be gained from these discussions, and I'm particulurly interested in seeing how the relationship between Saturn Girl and the other Legionnaires (particulurly Tinya) developed over time.

They were the only girls on the team in Adv. 348. Invisible Kid orders them to stick together when the team splits up to search Regulus's ship.

In Adv. 362, one of them tells the other about "the most darling new outfit" she has in her quarters and offers to show it to her. Don't remember which is which though.

In Adv. 368, when the girls pair off to work on decorating their new dorm, Lu and Tinya are working together over the robo-sewing machine. (Only Projectra refrained, choosing to lounge on the sofa instead. Too royal to get her hands dirty with the peasants?)

Those are the only instances where the 2 were paired that I can recall offhand from the Adv. days. Of course, they were often miscolored as each other. Maybe that's why they were so close...

Choosing to have all girls go back in time to meet Supergirl seems like a total Luornu idea to me. Imra would never have even considered the "girlfriends" angle. She would have chosen the most appropriate representation of the group possible, whatever that may have been. Probably the most diverse grouping. Tinya would have wanted the most powerful grouping. I think she might have wanted to have the whole Legion go. I imagine Lu really wanting to play on the fact that Kara was the lone super girl of her time, that she needed the fellowship of other super girls. The rest of the team probably just said "Well, why not?" and went for it. It ended up being quite charming and fun afterall. THAT is something Lu brought to the Legion, charm and endearing ideas that the others might have been too stuffy to think of.

This *is* fun, Cobie. I never would have thought of any of that if not for these threads...

Thanks Dean! When I first thought of these, I thought the same thing, and started thinking about Legion stuff differently for the first time.

And I can totally see it as a Lu idea too, now that you mention it.

Jim, good call on the Tinya/Lu pairing. Little things like that often led to future writers to make bold assumptions of the past--I don't see why we can't do the same!

Wasnt Phantom Girl a bridesmaid at Duo Damsel's wedding to Bouncing Boy? That certain says a lot about closeness...

Oh yeah, PG was the one who sprung DD from jail in Adv. 360. Maybe she volunteered for the job because she couldn't stand the thought of her pal rotting in jail.

Thats what made PG such an effective Espionage Squad member - dhe was sneaky!