Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! S and LSH #16

Hmm...Austin Powers in the 31st century? Groovy, baby!

I enjoyed seeing Gim being tackled by a fiery phallus! Thanks Barry!!

I don't think it's fair to say she "stole" them. She didn't even extort, really. No threats or legal-based demands or anything--just "I'm the boss of you, gimme your stuff." And Klar did, instantly, without protest--even in the middle of shouting at them in rage! If he's that reflexively submissive to anyone who claims to be an authority figure, that's his problem, and it's thanks to Shady that he's less likely to do it again.

sorry silicon-- it's called "bullying". my kindergartener gets it on the bus from the 2nd graders. "i'm the boss of you, gimme your stuff" as you say, certainly IS a threat. there's an implied "or else". again, this could totally be in character from this "warrior race" shadow lass, but likeable behavior? defendable behavior? is this condoned by the others? what would saturn girl do if she was there and witnessed this? i hope Wak have plans to address this.

Which is totally different. This isn't an older kid demanding something from a younger kid who's stuck on the bus with him--this is a teenage girl demanding something from a pissed-off adult male who marched up to her specifically to chew out her and her friends. If your kindergartener told the 2nd graders to hand over their stuff, would that be bullying?

Now sure, these aren't just teenagers, they're super-powered teenagers, and they probably could intimidate Klar pretty badly if they tried. But he's clearly not scared of them--he went out there in the first place to bitch them out for congregating and spoiling hs view! He didn't give Shady the glasses because she scared him, he gave them to her because he follows orders habitually.

How? The Legionnaires just went out of their way to point out that they were only tossing the SP around because he was a criminal fake. They never suggest that they'd be willing to rough Klar up too, and he doesn't seem to fear that. The only "threat" they make is that he can't sic the police on them. If they wanted to threaten him, even subtly, all they'd have to do is not mention that the SP's an impostor until later.

Oh, I expect (and hope) Saturn Girl and Cos and at least half the team would be against it--this shouldn't be official Legion policy, at all. But I think it's perfectly defensible coming from the Legion's "bad kids." I've said it before, but in most comics (and plenty of times in previous LSH iterations) the team firebrands demonstrate their personalities by wreaking pointless destruction due to romantic quarrels or general angst. I much prefer these kids channeling their anger and rebellious impulses into smart, subversive plans for social change.

Just for the record the one thing I didn’t like was Shady stealing Klars glasses. And I do think it was stealing and bullying. Just think, if a mafia don supported by a large group of his capo’s (Who you had just seen terrifying what you thought was a policeman) turned to you on your own, smiled and ever so polity offered to buy your Rolex watch from you for a dollar that would calm you down a notch or two and you would in all likelyhood hand over said watch and receive the money. Still don’t make it a sale

Having said that it is still easy to understand that these actions were part of the Legions plan to get the citizens to react and to change society. I think we are seeing a lot people using different routes to try to get to the same place. Lemnos himself seems to want the same change, but as many people have said the road to hell is paved with good intentions and actions like shady’s whilst having an alleged greater good in mind could be the wrong way to go about things and she will have to realise this.

This legion is in some respects feared by the adults because it is a force for change in a society that still at the momnent is by and large happy with the status quo and is in no rush to have change.

This is however behaviour that I could seen teenage kids doing, These Legionnaires have all the self assuredness of a teenager (and I have two) alongside the cockiness that having superpowers amongst non powered citizens and the added sense of untouchability that the recent SP protection will give them. The glasses incident could be a reference to the kick backs (from actuall money to the odd free cup of coffee) that some policemen take.

I do agree that this is not an attitude shared by the entire Legion; indeed this difference in attitude is one of the areas in which I think this version is superior to others. After all in any “gang” of 20 people there will be sometimes radically different personalities and attitudes. Looking back in the silver age the Legion was a surprisingly harmonious and homogonous lot. Well as WaK might put it, “Its not your Grandpa’s Legion” anymore.

The artwork was the lovliest of this entire 16-issue run (so far!).

I was another who was appalled by the "bully-Legion" scene; thankfully, we have Monkey-E.L.'s interpretation a few posts back that salvages that scene somewhat for me.

Unfortunately, it ("it" being adults vs. kids in a too-complacent sterile society) is *STILL* not a concept for the Legion and the future that I enjoy reading. I just don't *like* this current version of Earth.

The rest of the book, however, was really good.

Having read the issue again last night, and looked at the 19 cover, it seems pretty clear that Cham will be the one to try and build bridges to the Science Police. I hope that is the case, as it is a sign of the Legion's maturation.

I have to say I kind of like Ultra Boy's cocky, "Ultra Boy, Baby!", authority-flouting, terrorist-tossing behavior. Maybe because I remain confident he will grow up into a real hero for the ages. Also, his behavior leaves me anticipating with glee the moment when Supergirl make him feel like bird-cage liner. I know we can count on Barry and Mark to do this in the next few issues.

On re-reading I really loved the conversation between Cosmic Boy and Micro Lad. Mark again proves he is a master, as Levitz was, at using brief character dialogues to recap plot and develop characters.

I also like the fact that there isn't a "right" answer to the UP offer. No doubt Lightning Lad's decision saved lots of lives in the short run and gives the Legion a chance to influence the UP. It's a good historical "accident" type explanation for how the Legion hooked up with the UP. Cosmic Boy's feelings are very legit, too. This kind of ambiguity is the stuff of drama.

The issue sold out. Second printing with a pencils only cover coming.

DC Press release (Newsarama)

Hopefully, base orders were heavier already with Supergirl and OYL!

Well, in any case, I sent an e-mail to DCBS asking them to add a couple of copies of the reprint to my April order.

Good thinking, Scott. I want one too. I'll have them add it along with Five Fists.

No offence but that's the same kind of reasoning that comes from those morons who go 'bullying is a good thing because it toughens you up!'

Take it from a woman who has lifelong depression and fear from a childhood of bullying. It doesn't work that way.

People being obnoxious to me, I don't stand up to them. I am afraid of them. Does that mean I have no pride according to you and I deserve it? No it means that I am scarred from what happened to me as a child and is still sometimes happening unfortunately.

I don't want to sound angry but do you have any idea how offensive that is to someone like me?

Not everyone is confident and can stand up to bullies. It doesn't make you a bad or unworthy person.

And that is why those first few pages left such a bad taste in my mouth. As I said before it's got more to do with my own personal issues than anything..

Yeah yeah I can't stand up for myself so I deserve to be destroyed. All the kids at school thought that too. That's why I'm the broken person I am today.

//As proof of this (forgive the slightly off topic bit) I ran screaming out of psychiatrist's office two days ago because I couldn't take her damn unwanted judgements//

//ran out of my tablets, can you tell?

//slashierama!

Anyway to get off the subject of me, that's certainly *why* those early pages vexed me. I will say, now that I have read the whole thing, that the rest of the issue is a lot better. Garth and Imra are a lot more mature and a lot more to my taste I have to say.

The scene rubbed me the wrong way because...guys, what the hell are you doing? I've been beaten over the head with underagers vs. adults since the Titans/Legion, and how this isn't just the Legion crusading, they're representing minors everywhere, and the moment they get any kind of authority, they...terrorize people. Do things the SP are totally qualified to perform. At best they're maintaining the status quo, at worst (especially sending out wild cards like Jo and Shady--whose genuis idea was it to pair those two up with a shy person like Cham?) they're endangering lives. What about all the kids they were supposed to be representing earlier? You're telling me nobody's launching any kind of campaign to end the Orwellian surveillance, the insane living vicariously to the point of abuse (remember the ad at the end of Titans/Legion 'Control his DNAppetite'? Somehow I doubt parents only use it for obese children), nobody's bitchslapped a politician? Reneging like that and leaving whatever teen can't get to their front lawn out in the cold, I'd slap the lot of them on principle alone.

Shadow Lass had her tongue in cheek the whole time in that scene. I read the dialogue as ironic and sarcastic. On the other hand, years from now say about 20 they can skip ahead 5 years later and we can find out that Jo and Tas became facist diktators of Earth and point to this scene as foreshadowing their abuse of power.

I think she gave the goggles back, she didn't have them flying off. Go to a mall on a Saturday and watch the families, How many times have you seen parents use such a technique to teach a certain behaviour in their kids? Taking something away making them 'ask nicely and say please' before giving it back comes to mind.

Before Long Klar and company will be at City Hall demanding that garbage pick up be made later in the day as to not up their unhappy wives and husbands in the mornings.

If anything I didn't see bullying as such, I saw the patronizing behavior of parents to children in Tas in particular.

Yay Tamper Lad - I was hoping someone would notice she didn't fly off with the goggles!

They were deliberately trying to provoke a reaction that's for sure...like most teenagers (and people in general) they don't always choose the best means to achieve their ends - but at least they got one adult to actively want another to deal with him face-to-face.

All these things aren't mutually exclusive. For all we know, Jo and Shady spent their entire morning participating in a protest against the DNAppetite system, and they were throwing the guy around just to release some excess energy (since their other method of working off steam was a little too destructive to Shady's furniture ). Or maybe the more responsible Legionnaires were engaging in political activism while that scene was taking place. We've already seen that not all the Legionnaires have the same priorities, and that some of them have more to learn than others.

Yeah yeah I can't stand up for myself so I deserve to be destroyed. All the kids at school thought that too. That's why I'm the broken person I am today.


With all due respect, that's not a healthy status and its up to you to conquer it. Many people in today's society have reasons they can't overcome their fear chemically but those who can overcome psychologically need to do so.

Fear is in the mind and when it makes you afraid you must conquer it. It's ruining your life and you don't have to live like that.

I was bullied even when I DID stand up for myself, all through high school and junior high and it made my life Hell. However, they don't own me and I don't have to be afraid and that mindset is why I can deal it. Neither do you.

I've gone back and re-read the first 5 pages and have to admit that the Legionnaire's behaviour wasn't as disturbing once I kept the whole context of this future society in mind. Although I don't totally enjoy this adult vs. teen context...on 2nd look it doesn't appear that the Legionnaires are being malicious just for it's own sake. I think they know the lengths they have to go to snap the adults out of their societal stupor. And...being teens...there is bound to be a little rebelliousness in them just for the fun of it. I wouldn't want to see it escalate much beyond this level though. And I think we should see some fellow Legionnaires expressing doubt or being disturbed by similar behaviour.

I posted earlier how the comic shop didn't put a copy of SLOSH #16 aside for me, and now they were sold out. Turns out that either a) that was a misunderstanding and they just couldn't *find* the stuff that they had put aside for me, or b) they came through in coming up with another copy. Either way, it worked out, and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Good catch, Tamper Lad, you've restored Shady's honor in my eyes. And thanks to the good Mr. Kitson for confirming it.

One comment to Drura (whose posts I always look forward to!)--the Legionnaires aren't bullying shy, weak, powerless, scared or downtrodden people. They are standing up to the dominant, controlling, arrogant self-righteous majority in their society. I can sympathize more than a little how painful the Legionnaires actions seem, out of context. But, as someone who has always, always sided with the underdog, our Legionnaires left me cheering as the flew away from Klar.

By that logic, there's nothing that says Brainy and Lyle aren't snogging in a corner at every opprotunity, or that Blue Beetle wasn't wearing an invisible helmet rigged to explode with blood, distracted the guards, shoved a dummy into the body bag, and then, seeing what a jerk everyone was, said 'screw you' and went to live on Kooey Kooey Kooey.

It's more than a little irritating to be beaten black and blue by the exposistion bat for the past year, and then just conveniently ignore it when downtime comes along.

I like that logic.

That, I totally understand. I'm horribly conflict-shy, due mostly to assorted domestic violence incidents when I was a kid (I think that's why, anyway. Maybe I'm just inherently wimpy.) I think I'm improving over time, but it's damn hard, and I don't consider myself unworthy of respect just because I haven't yet achieved alpha male status. If Legionnaires were picking on timid citizens in some warped plan to force them to stand up for themselves, I'd be as disapproving as anybody.

But, like doublechinner says, Klar isn't timid or depressed. He's got bags of self-confidence. He walked up to a bunch of (from his PoV) teenage hoodlums and started a fight with them because they were spoiling his view! He's out there barking orders and throwing insults and smashing up his neighbor's stuff--he's not a shrinking violet. He just had no idea that he could take the aggression and confidence he already had in spades and apply it to social change.

I'll admit, I'm not really feeling the new Legion.
That said, it's not all bad. I'm still buying it after a savage cut of titles last month, after all. But I'll admit the 'teens' vs 'adults' story isn't really doing it for me. That's why this issue, which showed us a bit more than that, I found a little better.
That said, Supergirl is not the draw for me that she is for some people. And that 'dream' comment at the end is... alarming.

However, I've stayed away from the topic I wanted to make here. Could it be that Waid is using his old Flash trick of showing 'less-than-heroes' so then we can see them as heroes? Maybe Shady will see the error of her ways in a subsequent issue, or maybe she'll go further and then get an eventual comeuppance? While I too saw this scene as rather, well, corrupt - Shady's abusing her new power - it could be a good start to showing how false the young vs old conflict is. It doesn't matter how old or young you are - you can still be a jerk.