Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Oh Yeah, That Forum: The Titans Dan Jurgens Teen Titans - why did it fail?

Just reread the whole series. Thought it was actually quite good, even better than I remembered. I wonder why it failed to get the readers hooked?

The art was excellent (with Perez inking, what can go wrong) and consistent (Jurgens drew all the issues, no guest artists) until Perez left after 15 issues.

The story was just fine, especially the first eleven issues before they tried (much too hard) to shove the old characters back into the book. The moment Captain Marvel Jr. and Arsenal stayed around, the new heroes could no longer grow.

As for these new heroes (Risk, Argent, Joto, Prism), I thought all of them were well written and very likeable. Their interaction was fun as well, and the Youngster Atom to (kind of) lead them was a nice touch.

But I really would like to hear some other opinions: Why did a book written and drawn in such a pleasant manner fail to succeed?

i liked that version of the Titans i even liked the "De-aged" Atom as a member, i forgot what issue it was but i liked the little debate that Atom had with Risk about who was the better Star Trek captain they were going back and forth with Kirk, Picard, and Joto chimed in with Sisko, but as to why it fail, who knows maybe because with these new characters and no one wanted to give them a chance. but i do agree with you on the art and the story it was a good read.

I agree that a reason it might have failed was because of all the complete "unknowns." When the Wolfman/Perez book (the Holy Grail) came out, most people bought it because of the familiar faces and "hated" the new kids. Then the attitude shifted and everyone loved Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, etc.

Maybe if Jurgens had inserted a couple familiar faces logically into the story these kids would've had more chance to shine.

Really, I thought it was a big improvement over how Wolfman's "New Titans" series had ended up its last several years, and it was much better than that disastrous "The Titans" series that followed it. The current series started strong but lost something by the time it hit the 20s.

Really, I enjoyed Jurgens' series the most of all these save the classic Wolfman/Perez stuff. But it was a hard sell to the wider audience to launch an all-new cast. But in hindsight, it was the right way to go. The original Titans had gotten too old to be "teens" anymore, and I think the Teen aspect is essential to the concept which is one reason "The Titans" failed.

I don't think Jurgens characters were the most well-developed and unique personalities, so that hurt them a little. I did, however, enjoy Risk and his reckless ways a lot and felt Joto was the best character of the bunch. His seeming death was a bad idea, I thought. He was not only a terrific character, but a sorely-needed impressive African-American one in the DCU's lineup.

BTW, how many of Jurgens' original four characters still survive? Was Risk a Superboy-Prime casualty--losing an arm, IIRC? What about the rest?

Or maybe it was the name. I mean, when people read Teen Titans (or any kind of Titans book, I suppose), they expect something. They have that image of sidekicks/partners and sort of the originals and Perez/Wolfman, too. Jurgens went out side of the box. Maybe far enough out that if it'd been called something else, it wouldn't have suffered such a defeat.

On the other hand, my understanding of the new Infinity Inc. series is that it's radically different from the original. (It would have to be, all things considered.) So, I think it depends on the climate books are released in, the kinds of lead-ins they have, the writer/artist-- it's all of that stuff, too. I doubt this book would have been accepted (let alone possible) before 52.

Maybe if the Titans had had something like that to, I dunno, validate them or whatever it would've been better news for them. Or maybe not. You never can tell what people are gonna like. Especially comic book readers.

No need to update me on those four anymore, btw...I looked 'em up on Wikipedia! All four Jurgens TT's are still alive, though Joto and prism have sadly faded into obscurity.

Oddly enough, though, Joto appeared on the TT cartoon as Hot Spot. Though Joto (along with Prism) apparently hasn't (according to the article) appeared since the "Technis Imperative", his character is now called Hot Spot in DCU continuity also.

I was disappointed to learn that Risk has been turned into a villain (and apparently a murderer at that) as of the Titans East OYL storyline after he lost his arm in Infinite Crisis.

I totally agree with you on your comment about the end of the Wolfman run. The book was bad since Total Chaos, went even more downhill after they wrecked Starfires wedding to Nightwing and then... Tom Grummett left, being the last decent artist on the book. What came afterwards was insulting: Bill Jaaska (juck) and others whose names are long forgotten in the world of comics. The story went nowhere for nearly 30 issues until they mercifully canceled the long-dead book.

Jurgens approach was fresh and succeeded in entertaining me artistically and storywise.

I don't have reread the following Titans run yet, but have hardly any memories about it which usually is a bad sign. I also agree that the current run was going nowhere pretty fast. It's probably because the "Youg guns" of today like Flash III, Damage or Jesse Quick just can't carry a book (even though the latter two are written way better over at JSA now).

I do no longer read the current Titans book, but heard that there will be a new book with the Wolfman/Perez characters soon. Did not see a solicitation yet, does anyone know more?

By the way, the Jurgens Teen Titans run even had a good annual, which was hardly common back then in the 90s. That book was pencilled by a certain Mister Cassaday, by the way.

I remember the first twelve or so Jurgens issues were great and I was really into the book. When the original Titans guest-starerd I remember being very let down and bored with the story though. The series eventually kind of 'petered off' after that. I recall finding Prism and that other odd alien character cool visually but eventually felt like they never really had a chance to shine. I was and still am a big fan of Joto, Risk and Argent. Both Joto (as Hot Spot) and Argent were Titans during the missing year when 52 took place.

The series preceeding is about how Chemical King describes it above. The post-Zero Hour team with Arsenal in charge I remember not minding too much but I was 13 at the time and don't really remember much about them other than the line-up and that I read them. But I remember thinking some of it was pretty good, but it wasn't quite the best comic book on the market. In hindsight now that I've read most of the Titans stories written I can put it in perspective and feel like that had to be the lowest point in Titans history for longtime Titans fans with Gar, Vic, Raven, Starfire, Donna, Tula, Garth, Jericho and so many others written out of the series--and most not in a good way. Basically only Dick and Roy were benefitting from any stories at that point in Titans history, other than Wally (who was already the Flash at that point).

The series after Jurgen by Devin Grayson was just not good IMO. That also had a decent beginning but quickly bored me to tears. Too much internal drama with no real 'outside antagonism' worth noting--and IMO, you need both.

I should also note about Jurgens run what a delight Ray Palmer was in it. I felt this was the best role Ray had played in any DCU series in a long, long time. The Ray-as-teen thing shouldn't have worked, but Jurgens sold it very well. Ray was the glue that made the new characters work.

I think Cobalt pretty much nailed when the series atarted going awry. The former Titans guest-starring in addition to CM Jr. joining started it down the slippery slope as shilling for sales to "save" a book often does to a quality title. However, I do think the final arc that ended the series (which brought back Joto) really made the title go out with a bang, rather than a whimper.

Cali brings out a good point, though: are the Titans really the Titans if they're not primarily comprised of teen sidekicks? Or are the Titans really a certain core group of indispensible characters (Dick, Donna, etc.)?

If the first idea is true, is the concept slowly dying? If you haven't noticed, teen sidekicks are getting scarce these days, either dying en masse or simply becoming a dying concept as the readership these days is older and not requiring teen counterparts to older characters for them to identify with...hence fewer qualifying characters.

If the second idea is true, can those characters attract the kind of interest they used to attract in a team book? I guess we'll have a better understanding of that as we see how the new title does...