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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 84,497
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when stories meander around for too long...
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
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Yeah I can't help but agree here. Reflecto and the overly convoluted story around that is definitely not my favorite thing.
It's like they saw that issue from the SA that had him as a dead character, and said "hey we need to do that" then did it in such a horrible manner.
When I read this a few years ago, I just remembered being frustrated by all the false flags that were being planted and it just kept meandering. And then the pirates... OMG. Oh, those scenes with Ultra Boy and the pirates' female captain were soooo creepy... when stories meander around for too long... In fairness, the story changed editors once and writers twice before it stumbled to its conclusion.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Oct 2003
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bit of a tangent, but what is it with (some) writers making Ultra Boy so irresistible to some women?
Tinya...
Captain Frake...
5YL Spider-Girl...
Reboot Spider-Girl, though that was nipped pretty early
that whole thing under DNA with Imra making a fake Tinya...
and in the Threeboot, there were more Imra shenanigans, and that obsessed Science Police officer
When Retroboot Tinya turned Retroboot Jo down because he was too smelly from his workout, I cheered! finally!
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260 |
It's a mystery to me. I, personally, find most of his iterations repulsive! ![puke puke](/forums/images/graemlins/default_dark/puke.gif) I did like the PZH Jo for a long time...until DnA.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 84,497
Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
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PZH Jo was great when he became open and honest about his feelings for Tinya, and stayed a loyal partner and husband.
His treatment of Spider-Girl (being her boyfriend) while initially pursing Tinya, not so much.
and under DNA... yeah...
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260 |
As previously mentioned, the LSH monthly series switched editors halfway through Reflecto Saga (bye, Jack Harris, and hi, Mike Barr.) It's only on second read that I've noticed the many changes implemented all at once by Barr -- some good, some bad. The Good would definitely be bringing George PĂ©rez on board as the new cover artist, as the covers had been uninspired for a while now (I'd argue that the last good one before this was Dick Giordano's cover to the first installment of the Dark Man Trilogy.) Then there's the replacement of long-term inker Frank Chiaramonte with Bruce Patterson. Chiaramonte had a more old-fashioned, heavily shaded style, while the younger Patterson was more illustrative, with greater fine-line detail. Patterson would stay on the series until just before GDS, and in my opinion he made everyone he inked look good.
So far, so good -- unfortunately, Barr also replaced writer Gerry Conway with Roy Thomas. I'll elaborate on that in future posts.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260 |
PZH Jo was great when he became open and honest about his feelings for Tinya, and stayed a loyal partner and husband.
His treatment of Spider-Girl (being her boyfriend) while initially pursing Tinya, not so much.
and under DNA... yeah... Agreed on all of the above. What could Waid have been thinking, when he gave us that macho jerk Threeboot Jo?
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,159
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
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Yeah, I dunno about the DnA *or* Waid portrayals.
My guess is that they were trying to get to a character who was more "real" (PZH - delinquent womanizer, 3B - arrogant delinqent womanizer) as a teen who thinks they're hot s***
But given that both decided to make a play at Imra.... It just made me lose respect for the character and the writers doing that (and, by the way, making Imra a flake - and that includes Levitz).
I always liked the pre-ZH Jo. He may have been kind of dense, but he was endearing, and not like either of the versions who followed.
And I have NO idea what was up with the Bendis one...
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260 |
I always liked the pre-ZH Jo. He may have been kind of dense, but he was endearing, and not like either of the versions who followed. I've always felt that the pre-ZH Jo was tolerable until TMK turned him into a Gary Stu who was always one step ahead of everybody and who pretended to be dumb so that people would underestimate him. I hate that characterization.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,159
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,159 |
Oh for sure - THAT I absolutely hated. Yet another part of the Bierbaum retcon-a-thon of v4.
No, I mean v3 and Bronze Age, primarily. Silver Age is fine, but its Silver Age.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,585
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
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Posts: 40,585 |
For me, the basic archetype for Ultra Boy is the kid from the wrong side of the tracks who is trying to do the right thing, despite his background or even possibly criminal past. Anything that makes him a jerk kind of misses the whole point
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260 |
Oh for sure - THAT I absolutely hated. Yet another part of the Bierbaum retcon-a-thon of v4.
No, I mean v3 and Bronze Age, primarily. Silver Age is fine, but its Silver Age. Glad to hear that. For me, the basic archetype for Ultra Boy is the kid from the wrong side of the tracks who is trying to do the right thing, despite his background or even possibly criminal past. Anything that makes him a jerk kind of misses the whole point Exactly. TMK had no business making him a deceitful poser from a middle-class background.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,585
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
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Posts: 40,585 |
While I kind of hate the whole idea that there is some grand narrative lying behind all of Legion history that TMK took from v3 #50 and ran with like crazy, I also suspect that the "dumb jock" stereotype that gets thrust uopn him during the Levitz run (with Tinya and Shady as the catty cheerleaders in the Legion high school) also feed into some of the negative later portrayals. While he was always a decent guy during the Levitz era, it's pretty easy to go from him being the "jock" of the team to adding in more negative jock stereotypes, which may feed into the "womanizing jerk" portrayals of some later versions.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 84,497
Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
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Posts: 84,497 |
For me, the basic archetype for Ultra Boy is the kid from the wrong side of the tracks who is trying to do the right thing, despite his background or even possibly criminal past. Anything that makes him a jerk kind of misses the whole point word. Adventure-Era Jo, and mid-Reboot Jo before DNA, are the best versions of this. 3B - arrogant delinqent womanizer) as a teen who thinks they're hot s***
. perfectly sums up my feelings on 3Boot Jo. and while I agree that there is some realism here... that's not my fave take on Jo, nor does that character fit - in my mind - into a team whose core is a bunch of heroes with not-necessarily the most impressive powers, but who do amazing things when they work together!
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,159
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,159 |
While I kind of hate the whole idea that there is some grand narrative lying behind all of Legion history that TMK took from v3 #50 and ran with like crazy, I also suspect that the "dumb jock" stereotype that gets thrust uopn him during the Levitz run (with Tinya and Shady as the catty cheerleaders in the Legion high school) also feed into some of the negative later portrayals. While he was always a decent guy during the Levitz era, it's pretty easy to go from him being the "jock" of the team to adding in more negative jock stereotypes, which may feed into the "womanizing jerk" portrayals of some later versions. This is right on EDE. I feel like writers were trying to get to the "more teenage" approach to someone with his powers. It's an easy shift to do, but one that makes him completely unlikeable. 3B - arrogant delinqent womanizer) as a teen who thinks they're hot s***
. perfectly sums up my feelings on 3Boot Jo. and while I agree that there is some realism here... that's not my fave take on Jo, nor does that character fit - in my mind - into a team whose core is a bunch of heroes with not-necessarily the most impressive powers, but who do amazing things when they work together! Bingo. This is something that kept coming into my head all throughout the last time I read through this, especially after the early issue where the team fights amongst themselves and treats Lyle horribly. Why would any team of "heroes" that rely on acting as a team ever tolerate someone like him around? He honestly seemed, tempermentally anyway, to be more aligned with the Wanderers team that was introduced later in the run. But a super-team has to act like, well, a team, and when you have an obvious bad seed who's claim to fame is sleeping with all the women on the team, how does that create any sense of team unity without there being jealousy and the kinds of drama that would break apart a group like this?
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260
Independent Scholar
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Independent Scholar
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,260 |
Final thoughts on the Reflecto Saga, as collected in LSH Before the Darkness Volume 2:
Decades don't end exactly on schedule, and this story is only one of many ways to prove that. Originally published throughout 1981, it is among the final gasps of a particularly 70s style of superhero storytelling, and quite possibly the worst-written. Whatever Gerry Conway's intentions might have been when he began the Reflecto Saga, I seriously doubt that they followed through to the end, even though his replacement was his good friend Roy Thomas, then newly arrived at DC after years of conflicts with Marvel. It appears to me as if Thomas refit the story to suit his personal interests, throwing in time travel, Cold War paranoia, interdimensional incursions, what have you.
It didn't work. And not even the young and precocious Paul Levitz could do anything to salvage this sorry mess, except to return everything and everyone to the status quo so that he could proceed with his own plans for the Legion series. Thankfully, Levitz's plans turned out to be good for the Legion, finally breaking the cycle of mediocrity that the series had been stuck in for years.
Am I glad I purchased LSH: BtDv2? Actually, yes, because it's a genuine curiosity -- one of those fascinating (if sometimes frustrating) follies that only superhero comics can produce! I doubt I'll hold onto it for the long run, but I've said the same thing about other Legion Eras that I dislike far more, and I still have them in my collection.
Such is the specialness of the Legion, flaws and all.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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![](/forums/images/icons/default_dark/book.gif) Re: Lardy's Roundtable: How forgettable or unforgettable was SLSH/LSH between Earthwar and Levitz II/Giffen?
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,585
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,585 |
Final thoughts on the Reflecto Saga, as collected in LSH Before the Darkness Volume 2:
Decades don't end exactly on schedule, and this story is only one of many ways to prove that. Originally published throughout 1981, it is among the final gasps of a particularly 70s style of superhero storytelling, and quite possibly the worst-written. I'm always surprised when I realize these stories were published in the 80s. My instincts always want to say they are from at least a couple of years before.
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