Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The 2nd All Avengers Thread

I am so glad Aaron is leaving, I might actually be able to read this book again finally

His run has definitely been a tremendous disappointment to me. I imagine other fans of his good work feel much the same.

If the Bendis Avengers run was too stubbornly earthbound, then the Aaron run was too out-there, utterly lacking in any kind of grounding.

So...I've temporarily put aside my beloved 90s Marvel in favor of getting reacquainted with 80s Marvel. There was no need to get reacquainted with the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers, as I reread those regularly. Which leaves plenty of time to reassess West Coast Avengers and to read Solo Avengers for the first time ever.

To wit, I borrowed the WCA Epic Collection trades from the library, covering the Stern/Hall/Breeding miniseries through Lost in Space-Time. The first volume also includes the Iron Man Annual which has Erik Josten becoming Goliath, the Wonder Man one-shot, the double team up in Avengers 250, and the two issues of Vision and Scarlet Witch that crossed over with WCA.

It's a mixed bag, to say the least!

The miniseries holds up beautifully, Stern once again proving himself the definitive 80s Avengers writer and Hall doing the best art of his career, no small thanks to Breeding. I've always liked the Iron Man Annual, which has surprisingly good art by Luke McDonnell and the team of Akin & Garvey -- I swear that in many spots it reminds me of my beloved Don Newton! But the Wonder Man one-shot is awful. A below-par showing from Kerry Gammill is made unbearable thanks to Vince Colletta, combined with a terrible David Michelinie script. Avengers 250 is just okay -- Al Milgrom's style of drawing has always turned me off, and the story feels like then-Avengers editor Mark Gruenwald did most of the plotting, leaving Roger Stern as little more than dialoguer.

As for the early issues of WCA proper, Steve Engelhart turns in an awkward, tentative performance. The opening storyline, which crosses over with the aforementioned V&SW, is more-or-less the same story he'd planned in 1976 as the follow-up to The Serpent Crown. The through-line about the ultimate showdown between Wonder Man and his psychotic brother, the Grim Reaper, is sturdy enough, but the whole business with the Reaper being a racist who makes an exception for the "black albino" Nekra is ham-fisted and cringe-inducing. Mediocre art from Al Milgrom and Richard Howell doesn't help at all, though I find Howell more bearable than Milgrom. And the third issue of WCA is a showcase for Tigra, a character I've always found off-putting, and even though Engelhart writes Kraven the Hunter very well, in the end it's all too predictable. That's as far as I've gotten. Let's see what I end up thinking of the rest.

Finally, the first issue of Solo Avengers was quite the pleasant surprise, a Hawkeye showcase that delves into his origins and is solidly written by Tom DeFalco and beautifully drawn by MD Bright and Joe Rubinstein. Speaking of beautiful artwork, the Mockingbird backup story is drawn by a very young Jim Lee, in the Marvel House style which had been established back in the 70s, and with strong inks by Al Williamson. I'm greatly looking forward to Solo Avengers 2.

It's been years since I read these but my memory leaves feelings matching up close to yours. I remember enjoying the mini-series and then collecting the ongoing but not being quite as enamoured with it. Didn't stop me buying it and reading it. The effort to spin a tale about the "three brothers" was interesting but yeah, that thing between Grim and Nekra about him accepting her because she was "white" never sat well. Memory says the dialogue and art left Nekra uncomfortable too and it did come from the crazy brother so perhaps it was meant to be cringe-worthy. As for the art it was probably the most disappointing part of the series for me, although I may be thinking of later issues which seemed to be trying to cram so much in that I felt like needing a magnifying glass to see the characters properly.

Not sure I ever read the Solo Avengers series. Sounds like I should check it out.

Thanks for chiming in, Stile.

Good point about Nekra's unease and how the whole thing was supposed to make us cringe. But it could also have been challenging and compelling, if not for the ineptitude of Engelhart's execution. In the end, it makes it hard to feel anything but relief at the fate of the Reaper.

Well, I'm now several issues deep into WCA, and while some of the subplots involving certain team members are interesting, and there's a nice extended guest-star role for Ben Grimm, I'm just still not won over yet. The problem, as I see it, is threefold:

1. The aforementioned Al Milgrom artwork. His villains, be they demons or monsters or whatever, just look so silly that it kills any potential gravitas. The only issue that worked for me visually is the one where Kyle Baker does the art over Milgrom's layouts, the one introducing Balkatar the cat-man. That one, at least, has a nicely moody look.

2. In a word, Tigra. There is nothing wrong with a protagonist having many unlikable traits, but I find her unbearable and impossible to feel sympathy for.

3. Engelhart writes like it's still the 70s, a very different decade than the 80s, aesthetically and otherwise. Perhaps that was part of the book's appeal, but I just find it sad that a writer who had once defined the superhero genre now seems old, quaint, and out of step.

But I'm going to press on and see if Lost in Space-Time is any kind of improvement.

Thanks for your thoughts on WCA, Fickles.

I think I first came across them in an excellent Avengers RPG supplement. In addition to lots of Avengers facts and history, the scenarios allowed players to start up their own Avengers franchise. A really good gaming hook (and just one reason why the Great Lakes Avengers were popular)

I picked up a couple of issues, not in any order. But despite being quite keen, they just didn't work for me. Your comment on them being written like they were in the 70s chimes with my reaction. I wasn't a fan of Milgrom's art on it either. Despite reading Iron Man, none of the cast particularly appealed either, at least in the way they were written there.

I wasn't a regular reader until Byrne.

Thanks, Thoth. Yes, as we agreed earlier in this thread, Byrne's Vision Quest is the indisputable high point of WCA.

Aside...

As I read you getting WCA from your library, the radio is talking about further cuts to library services in parts of the UK. Where I am, it would seem the libraries are slowly being set up to fail. Regular sell offs of books, moving into smaller premises, and reducing hours results in less visits and books taken out. Then the council's declare that they aren't as popular, and announce cuts.

Technology means that libraries across the region are connected and you can order books from any of them. That there's still not a huge choice, and certainly not for comics, says a lot on how all of them have been chipped away at.

... Aside returns you to your regular funny books.

This post is going to be a long one.

Lost in Space-Time, generally considered the definitive story of the WCA's Engelhart Era, is by turns fun and frustrating, charming and creepy.

Things definitely start out on the right foot. When the team arrives in the Wild West, they help out a small group of Marvel's Western heroes round up a whole mess of goofy, gimmicky varmints -- each and every one an actual villain from old Marvel comics. And from there, they travel further and further back in time. Engelhart is at his best when he's fitting the disparate pieces of Marvel's past into continuity, without ever being pretentious or pedantic. In some ways, this is the kind of story that Avengers Forever tried and failed to be.

Of course, AF had the late, great Carlos Pacheco on art, and this story is saddled with Al Milgrom. And yet the time travel sequences are so ingenious and engaging that the art becomes bearable, if only barely.

The present-day sequences, with Firebird/Espirita saving Hank Pym from a suicide attempt, are also well-written, the subplots involving both characters paying off nicely.

Which leaves us with the elephant in the room, the kidnapping and rape of Mockingbird by Phantom Rider, one of the Westerners. I am now more convinced than ever that this obvious attempt to give the story greater gravity and drama was completely unnecessary. So what if the story would have been lightweight and completely retro without it? If getting older as a member of Fandom has taught me anything, it's that the superhero genre really needs to lighten the hell up more often! Dark superhero stories are fine in and of themselves, but this type of awkward cross-breeding is doomed to fail unless the writing comes from a truly exceptional talent, such as Peter David or Alan Moore. And even those writers got it badly wrong sometimes.

According to Engelhart, the stories that followed this one suffered from him clashing with Marvel's EiC Tom DeFalco, until he was shuffled off WCA to make way for John Byrne (apparently, the final straw was Engelhart's insistence on bringing back Mantis.) I myself side with DeFalco as far as Engelhart is concerned. None of Engelhart's 80s work, not WCA nor Silver Surfer nor Fantastic Four, was an unqualified artistic success. Sometimes you really can't go home again.

And...it has begun.

Avengers Assemble Alpha, the first installment of Jason Aaron's final Avengers story, was released in stores today.

I probably won't get to review it until early next week. But if anyone wants to comment on it before me, feel free.

I just finished reading Avengers Assemble Alpha.

Jeez Louise, what a stinker!

Full-length review to come later.

REVIEW: Avengers Assemble Alpha

(SPOILERS follow)



Not since the worst moments of the Avengers' Bendis Era has there been such a motley bunch of heroes and villains with so little chemistry among each other, fighting such boring and badly choreographed battles. Jason Aaron and Bryan Hitch have proven themselves many times over on previous projects -- but a reader unfamiliar with these creators could be forgiven for assuming their work is always this dull.

Aaron's dialogue is particularly bad -- there were moments where I thought he might be channeling the ghost of Mark Gruenwald. The only two characters who make the slightest bit of a positive impression are Captain Carter and Doom Supreme. But with this many pages to fill and this many characters jockeying for face time, it's not enough.

The plot, such as it is, consists mostly of heroes fighting heroes -- the most tired and tedious of all Marvel tropes. When the aforementioned Doom Supreme finally moves in, it's almost a relief, if only because at least he has the charisma lacking in all the other villains and almost all the other heroes.

Don't get me wrong, I love multiple multiversal analogs, but not when they're this lame! The average 12 year old could do a more imaginative job than Aaron has here. And with a lot more conviction to boot.

Still, I somehow got through the entirety of Bendis's final storyline -- remember that one, the microversal adventure with a lame stand-in for the copyrighted Baron Karza? (Bendis called him Lord Gouda, or something dumb like that.) So I figure Aaron's finale can't be much worse.

Famous last words...

Doom Supreme: John Coltrane's 1965 follow up album to A Love Supreme, after he got up in a bad mood only to find the milk had gone off.

Too bad this was such a dud. Hitch has been a bonus to a number of wide screen, big scope plots. So, this one must have been pretty poor to to get the benefits of that.

I didn't know Bendis' had used the Micronauts. I was thinking of a reread of them, after having read some Bill Mantlo Alpha Flight. I hunk I'll give Bendis' version a wide berth.

LOL

That really jazzed up the discussion. Thanks, Thoth.


Yeah, I wasn't expecting much from Aaron, but I was shocked at how weak Hitch's performance was. Completely undistinguished.


The status of the Micronauts in the Marvel Universe seems to be that the characters Mantlo created from whole cloth are owned by Marvel, but the ones based on toys that already existed are not, and can't be seen in Marvel comics.

Micronauts: Yeah, there was a non Marvel series where it was an odd echo of the Marvel series, as they used the toy company's trademarks.

An installment of the X-Men / Micronauts crossover made an impression on li'l thoth. And the Micronauts spent plenty of time in the main Marvel Universe in their own series. Can't recall another Avengers team up. You'd have thought Ant Man and/or Wasp at least...

The whole point of the Bendis Avengers trip to the Microverse was to rescue the Wasp, who had been presumed dead since getting zapped by Skrulls during Secret Invasion, but had actually gotten microscopic.

Ironic that Bendis would end his Avengers run that way, considering that the Wasp arguably came off even worse than the Scarlet Witch in Avengers Disassembled, Bendis's opening salvo. Wanda might have been guilty of mass murder, but it was Janet who triggered Wanda's rampage with a rude and thoughtless remark.

I didn;t even remember that the wasp could become microscopic. It used to be that the Micronauts would grow into the main universe, but still be small.

It was only fairly recently I read Byrne's treatment of Wanda, after the VIsionquest arc. All that Dark Scarlet Witch bit. I'm sure the notes said he liked her character. While he did give it lots of focus, I can;t think of anything that was positive for her. Bendis seemed to follow that up. Were they all walking on eggshells around her for years, hoping no one mentioned kids, had a kid (and *not* in teh Carol Danvers plotting way either thanks, the power pack visited or they rescued kids?

The Wasp didn't deliberately become microbe-sized. It was some kind of effect of the ray she was zapped with. I don't remember the details.

Regarding people being on eggshells around Wanda, I don't think the kids or the Dark Wanda stuff were ever mentioned again until Disassembled. Which I think proves what an exercise in barrel-scraping Disassembled was.

I remember disassembled for laughing at how absurdly Bendis dedded Hawkeye. After random acts where he was trying to increase tension, it became silly. And now a giant monty python foot comes down from the heavens to crush Captain Britain! And now Tony realises he's always been made of iron and rusts! Now they lose their funding (again)! Now most of the FF join, only so they can say "I quit!" like their own book! Now Jarvis is revealed as the Beyonder!

I hated the Scarlet Witch thing in Disassembled because there was a whole story after Darker than Scarlet where Wanda learned about her kids again and came to peace with them being gone (I wanna say it was in Avengers Spotlight but it could have been one of the annuals too)...her powers built back up again after Immortus used her and she led the WCA, never had any issue with Spider-Woman's daughter being around, no sign of mental instability all through the end of that series, all through Force Works and Busiek's Avengers and then we're supposed to believe that she snaps one day and loses her mind because of a single offhand comment?

I have the same issue with characters being all "well of course she was crazy, she married a toaster lol" - the Vision was a core Avenger for years and a lot of them fought to recognise his personhood more than once...Quicksilver being so weird about their marriage was a noticeable trait precisely because Pietro was the only one who thought of Vizh as being less than human.

I just think at the end of the day Bendis has nothing but contempt for a lot of old-school Marvel characters and he takes any opportunity he can to show everyone how little respect he has for any of them. There's something really distinctively nasty in the way he writes stuff like Tigra being terrorised by a gang of 3rd rate hoodlums or Thor and Iron Man joking about which Avenger girls they've banged...Kurt Busiek used nearly everyone who's been an Avenger at some point or another while he was writing the title and I'm sure he didn't love all of them but he understood that every character is someone's favourite and didn't do this juvenile "hurr hurr Hawkeye got himself blowed up because carnie archers are dumb right" rubbish that Bendis did constantly.

Anyway. End rant lol

An Avengers arc about the team falling apart because of the actions of one of the membership called 'Disassembled' sounds like a clever idea.

And after that concept, it all goes loudly to hell. Wanda acts contrary to what we already know (she already knew about and had gotten over her kids being gone), develops brand-new squiffy 'whatever-I-want' powers nothing like her old bad luck bolts, and even that badly-defined 'reality manipulation' is handled inconsistently. (At one point, it's said that her power rewrote stuff *retroactively*, so that the people she de-mutanted *would never have been mutants,* so anyone who fell out of the sky because they lost the power to fly? Wouldn't have happened, since the only way they'd have been a half-mile up in the air is with an *airplane* wrapped around their un-mutant never-could-fly ass.)

And yeah, Tigra *who is twice as strong as Bendis' favorite tank, Luke Cage* getting beat up by street thugs was just more of his usual (vaguely misogynistic) nonsense.

Sounds as though Bendis had his idea, and wasn;t going to let pesky things like loads of stories establishing the contrary get in the way of it. No doubt he'll be back one day with his "Jarvis was a deranged serial killer all along" story.


From what I've read of the stories, Vision's humanity and acceptance of himself and from others was central to the character. It was a thread picked up after Byrne rebooted him, with Vsion showing plenty of emotional hints during later stories and in the Busiek run. Pietro's super power of being a tool proves Vision is fine and that everyone else likes him, and thinks nothing of Wanda being married to him.



Oh, I saw the Tigra thing. I'd forgotten that was Bendis (if I ever knew). That was some of the poorest plotting I'd seen in a long time. Similar to the above, his idea trumps any number of established stories, and this one had a mean misogynistic angle to it. A scene to make you lose interest in a book immediately. So, I didn't see Thor and Iron Man's chats. Which would, again, have been completely unlike them, and enough to make me stop reading right there. Makes you wonder if you're reading about the writer's personality seeping into the book.

It's weird because he always seems like a nice enough guy who is enthusiastic about comics in interviews, but then none of that ever comes through in his work.

I do feel like he at least had good intentions with Superman, the Legion and the X-Men but a lot of other non-street level stuff he writes really does just come across like someone looking down their nose at how dumb superhero comics are.

Pretty much the impression I get from almost everything Mark Millar has written for Marvel or Image. Some writers manage to deconstruct and build in another direction, like Morrison or Frank Miller, but Millar just seems to like to tear down everything better writers have created, plow up the ground, sow it with salt, and then dig to an even deeper low.


There was a great line, from Hawkeye, perhaps in Thunderbolts?, where someone said something about Wanda and Vision's relationship, and he said he had trouble wrapping his head around it at first, but some wiser Avenger told him to just accept it because 'you can't define love.' It was kind of neat.