Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The 2nd All Avengers Thread

Yeah, Avengers Forever pretty much botched a potentially great premise. Retcons are always an easy way out, but retcons on the scale of "The Crossing" being an elaborate deception by Immortus are an outright cop-out. And even after finally reading "The Crossing" in its entirety a few months ago, and being able to confirm that it really is a terrible story, I still think something of value could have been salvaged in its aftermath.


And regarding the outright unworkable stuff (mainly "Teen Tony Stark,") it's not as hard to fix as it might look.

One thing I'll say about Avengers Forever is, Carlos Pacheco really went the extra mile with the artwork. Shame all the effort was for naught.


These days, what I find most annoying about the Busiek run is how he seemed to think "bigger means better" pretty much throughout. Maybe he was being competitive with the Big Guns JLA at the time, I don't know for sure. But it's exhausting and unsatisfying in the extreme. That actually bothers me more than his selective loyalty to continuity and his pandering to nostalgic old readers.

But, but, but... I liked being pandered to!

I did kinda like how he avoided the trend to filling up the team with 'classic' or 'big 7' heroes, and included both some established heroes who'd never been Avengers (Justice and Firestar) *and* attempted to introduce some shiny new characters (Triathalon and Silverclaw, who, granted, went over like a fart in church, but I give him points for at least trying, unlike today's Avengers, which seem to be the same old, same old Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, etc.).

Huh, it just occurred to me, now that the Phoenix has been retconned to be Thor's mother, and is currently inhabiting his teammate Echo, Thor is on a team *with his mom.*

"Honey, don't chew with your mouth open. And get your elbows off the table."

"Mooommm!"

In my opinion, Busiek wrote Justice and Firestar horribly. He came off like a wide-eyed dork, and she came off like a miserable killjoy.

I'm surprised Fabian Nicieza is still friends with him, after Busiek basically ignored all the good things Nicieza had done to evolve those characters in the original New Warriors series.

Poking my head in to say that Ann & Paladin, I really like all your choices - I am particularly chuffed to see Assault on Olympus mentioned as it really cemented Monica Rambeau as a powerhouse, and the WCA Lost in Space/Time story was one of the first story arcs I remember being into enough to actually try and get every issue. It may not necessarily have landed everything it attempted, but it was pretty mind-blowing for me as a teenager seeing this story mine old continuity I'd only ever read about in the OHOTMU/Marvel Index books and have a whole bunch of different storylines going in different eras. I wish Firebird had stayed with the team but I guess she suffered the fate of all the other peripheral Avengers women who never get to see their potential filled beyond maybe one storyline if they're lucky.

re: Busiek's run....I understand the comment that it's nostalgia heavy without really contributing any groundbreaking stories, but I do think Ultron Unlimited classifes as an epic on its own merits because it re-established Ultron as a terrifying threat and it firmly put Black Panther and Firestar on equal footing with Cap, Iron Man and Thor in terms of experience/power. I would probably put the initial Morgan le Fay story there as well, both because of its scale and because it easily established the kind of respect and knowledge that Busiek has for the characters. Even though Monica Rambeau hardly ever popped up again and it was a while before the Wasp got involved heavily in the title again as well, I love how that storyline established them as people who are at the core of what the Avengers are.

I've never read "The Crossing" and doubt I ever will. Of course, about all I really know about it is the broad strokes of the Tony Stark part of it. I'm curious about what else went on there and if any of it was actually somewhat good?


Totally agree about Pacheco's efforts on AF. I stop short, though, of agreeing it was "all for naught". For me, it STILL nearly made the list. There's a lot in the story (the roles of Songbird and Genis-Vell, for example) that is still good and memorable. It just should have been about celebrating and embracing Avengers history instead of attempting to fix it all with duct tape.


I'm sure George Perez's influence didn't hurt either. Obviously, he wasn't there the whole run, but still the guy known for Crisis wasn't looking for a more intimate Avengers book. But, yeah, Morrison's hugely successful JLA had to be a factor, as was having to right the ship The Crossing and Heroes Reborn. For the latter purpose, similar approaches have been used for course corrections after bad creative runs. Just think John Byrne's Spider-Man relaunch after the Ben Reilly Clone Saga.

Busiek/Perez's initial line-up was certainly pleasing to me at the time, as well. But Busiek was possibly the least successful of all Avengers writers at creating new Avengers or adding existing characters as first-time Avengers. I an't think of one that stood out or came away looking better by the end of their run. I don't like what Bendis did to the Avengers, but many of the B- and C-List characters he added found new life from obscurity and are still thriving years later. Busiek didn't do that with anyone and, in fact, seemed to go out of his way to make fans hate them. I'm an overall big fan of Kurt Busiek, but this alone makes him a lesser Avengers writer by my reasoning.


Ugh. This sounds like utter shit! If this is from the current Donnie Cates run, I'm not looking forward to that first TPB my CBS guy talked me into getting.

"Olympus" was considered. I'd re-read it within the last year, but I didn't like it as much as the others I listed from that era. Fick is correct that the Nebula story lacked a solid ending, but I found her fascinating and liked her unrepentant portrayal. Too many female villains have a soft side, but here was a self-announced daughter of Thanos who was ready to seize his legacy. (I like the MCU version of the character, btw, in and of herself--but her resemblance, appearance and personality, to the original 616 Nebula is very superficial.) I also loved the ominous feeling of Thanos's derelict ship. "Assault on Olympus" was beautifully drawn and fairly entertaining, but the outcome for Hercules was very predictable.

Love your thoughts on "Lost in Space-Time"! Can I coax some of your thoughts about Mockingbird and the Phantom Rider?


Here's a secret, just between you and me...and everyone else reading : I'm not in love with my Ten Best list. I hate that it's such an Englehart/Stern lovefest.

Part of me desperately wanted to include some of Busiek's run or maybe even something else from Lee or Thomas...or even that dad-blasted Korvac Saga! I also considered "Nights of Wundagore", which featured strong Byrne art and Starlin's "Final Threat", among others.

I think, maybe...just maybe, if the bulk of the Busiek run was as fresh in my mind as those older stories, there may have been an appearance or tow on the list. The only part of it I'd re-read was AF, so my reaction to that has likely colored my view of the others. I've read or re-read pretty much all those older stories since Busiek's run ended, so they are all much fresher in my memory.

I am always up for talking about the WCA, they were my favourite team for a while

My thoughts on that story have definitely changed over the years...when it first came out I could understand why Bobbi did what she did and it made her much more of a badass to me than I had previously thought of her as being, but I was pretty firmly on Team Hawkeye in that I too believed killing is never justified and that as a hero she should have done everything she could to save Phantom Rider even though he was a bad guy. (On a side note, I really wish when the team split up over Bobbi letting the Phantom Rider die that they'd had some more time to explore that dynamic...it would have been interesting to see how Bobbi's crew and Clint's crew evolved from that starting point)

Now that I've had *coff*a few years*coff* more life experience, I think Bobbi was 100% justified in what she did and Clint was an absolute douchebag discounting his wife's sexual assault entirely while he got on his high horse...and from a meta perspective, I kinda think that whole storyline was dealing with themes that were too mature for the book. Steve Englehart has the nuance of a sledgehammer and he reduced a very horrible thing that happens in the real world to superhero histrionics.

I don't know that Bobbi's ever really recovered from it as a character either...for pretty much the rest of that title's run she was characterised as a flakey woman who lets her emotions lead her to stupid decisions, which has some very squicky connotations about how these writers view women and sexual assault...I mean, let's face it - if Phantom Rider had abducted Clint and roofied him for sexytimes, I doubt very much that later writers would suddenly have Hawkeye become a generally incompetent moron who helped take apart the Vision because of his inability to make rational decisions...

It is so awesome to see this thread so packed with new posts! Thank you, Lardy and Raz! I'll do my best to catch up this weekend.

Mine too, for much of that run! The mix of characters had a lot to do with it, but also the character interaction/soap opera and overall lighter feel were appealing. I never didn't like Stern's run, but there was a more somber tone to it that put it slightly behind for me. Keep in mind that I was a teenager in high school around that time! Plus, I've always loved Hawkeye.


Obviously, as said above, I was (and am) a big Hawkeye fan, so teenage me, especially, would drift toward agreeing with him.

Regarding Englehart's "nuance of a sledgehammer", even having re-read this a year or two ago, I'm not sure he ever used the words "rape" or "sexual assault". (He probably couldn't have because of the Comics Code, and I doubt Marvel would've allowed it anyway.) For teenage me, I don't know that I ever realized that's what actually happened, if I even had knowledge of such a crime. I was pretty naive about a lot of sexual things, having not had any firsthand experience at the time. I know it would be very obvious to a more mature reader, but that was not me at the time. I knew she was extremely angry and had been mislead into believing she was someone else, so the depth of her anger went over my head. I didn't, however, blame her for letting the Rider die. But when there was a schism, it was hard for me not to side with Hawkeye. I still liked Bobbi and lamented that the two were never the same after that.

While she may have "never recovered" during that series run, I really enjoyed the short-lived Hawkeye & Mockingbird series of several years ago by Tim Seeley. It even revisited the Phantom Rider and bravely addressed those events around the Rider's return. I was glad to see someone have the nerve to unbury the story with some maturity. Even this wasn't perfect, but I appreciated the effort. It also seems Bobbi has headlined a well-received (though controversial for the writer daring to have a "feminist agenda") solo book and a WCA revival. Both were short-lived, but the character has at least gotten her due.

As for Hawkeye, this is one of the more unfortunate examples of the character often demonstrating emotional immaturity. It goes back to his earliest days as a character and sadly fits in with his reaction to what happened to Bobbi and what she did. I don't defend him at all, but I can see him being unable to deal with what happened to his wife emotionally and instead leaning into his moral outrage about what she did. Honestly, with everything we knew about Hawkeye up to the point of his meeting Bobbi, he should never have married her. Obviously, it was a whirlwind courtship, and that's the only way it could have happened. Any mature woman who would try to romance with Clint for a prolonged period would see he's not husband material without him making some changes and getting some therapy. I love Hawkeye, largely for his flaws, but this is the worst thing he ever did.

Thanks, Raz. Monica holding her own against Zeus was truly awesome!


Well...MIke Deodato's art was better than I had remembered (or maybe it's because most of the other art, except maybe for Tom Morgan's Iron Man art, was bad.) There's also the thing I put in a spoiler box, about the potential for meta-commentary about how much the world (and the Me Generation) had changed since the Celestial Madonna Saga. As for the story itself, it's hard to summarize but basically it involves the return of Kang (or the illusion thereof) and his corruption of Iron Man, who ends up killing people; there's also a bunch of previously unseen time-traveller characters, including the return of the Anachronauts (or, again, the retroactive illusion of all this.) I could try to elaborate further if you'd like.


Fair enough. Just as it could be argued that Busiek's final 20 or so issues should have been about inducting Genis and Songbird into the Avengers instead of that bloated Kang story.

Beautifully put! Thanks, Lardy.


Fair enough on Olympus, and I totally agree about Nebula's unrepentant portrayal. There are not nearly enough villainesses of that caliber. Roger Stern's friend John Byrne, to his credit, portrayed Nebula well during the time Byrne was writing Avengers and writing/drawing Avengers West Coast. Then Byrne was fired, other hands completed his story, and then the whole disgusting resurrection of Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet crap...sad, just sad.


One of the highlights of the previous All Avengers thread was our Korvac discussion. I'm always up for a lively Korvac discussion. Hint, hint. But I don't like the Wundagore story at all, despite the art -- it arguably set Wanda on the course to Disassembled. Final Threat is solid but doesn't really stand on its own apart from the rest of the Bronze Age Marvel Universe Warlock Saga.



Okay...guess it's devil's advocate time for me. First off, I think Al Milgrom's art was horrible -- he did have more chemistry with Engelhart than he did with Stern, but it's just so grossly amateurish-looking! As for the "lighter feel," I mentioned earlier that I thought Lost In Space-Time had a borderline schizophrenic tone...I actually think that could apply to the vast majority of that run. All sorts of creepy stuff with demons and cat people, but at the same time, this weirdly wonky attempt to be...for lack of a better word, chirpy. It just gave me the willies.

I should check that out, I kinda got burned out on a lot of Avengers stuff after Johns, Austen and Bendis got their hands on 'em...thanks for the heads up!

Everything you're saying makes sense actually, I think I'm just bitter about it because Bobbi got treated so badly afterwards and then had the stupidest death scene I've ever seen in a comic, and for years after that was the end of her story. But I can't argue that anything Clint did was out of character (although it'd be nice if writers other than Busiek or Nicieza could retain his impulsive moron side while still letting him grow up a bit, but that's a different rant altogether lol)

I can't argue about the art...I think these days it would be enough to put me off buying a title, but back then I had just discovered comic shops and I was buying just about anything Marvel put out

I get what you mean about the schizophrenic tone too; I actually liked it but I can see how it would be off-putting. I think that's kind of what I was getting at when I said the whole story around Bobbi's abduction was probably too mature for that title to handle properly (in retrospect I think the same thing about the early issues with Tigra and all the focus on her sexuality....like there's all this stuff touching on consent issues and her lack of control when it came to jumping everyone's bones, but then it all gets wrapped up with a neat bow and hey now she's got a tail, time for the next plot! - I'm not sure if stuff like that should actually be raised at all if it's not going to be explored with sensitivity)

In no particular order, and off the top of my head...

West Coast Avengers - #42 - 47 - The Visionquest.
I read a reference about Vision and his world domination, and so wasn't completely in the dark on the reasons behind the antagonists here. I remember that Byrne gave us a reminder that the world governments were more than a shouty Gyrich or whatever Claremont was doing in the X-Books.
In addition to the excellent plot and lovely art, Byrne built the West Coast team into a more effective force that the East Coast had. For me, they were the main Avengers team at the time. Byrne built in a number of little character plots for good measure, showing his craft in building a strong team book.
This run also had the Great Lakes Avengers. Back then the Marvel RPG had a sourcebook where the players could create their own franchises. This was a lovely reminder of that. It was also an entertaining story in its own right, and set up Hawkeye for the later Thunderbolts.

Avengers 16
The changing of the guard. Hinted at in the preceding issues, it sets the standard for the team's fluidity over the decades. The following issues where the team have their differences and look to be breaking up in the shadow of their more powerful predecessors is well done too.

Avengers 23 -24.
The Kang/Immortus stories had already been highlights. This story showed Cap's Kooky quartet bury some differences and pull together against a major foe. Kang would be given a lot more depth in this two parter, as the book continued with longer stories.

Avengers 181
Gyrich cuts down the team in my favourite roster change issue. Although 151 was really good too.

Avengers (1998 series) 1-4
I was in the target audience for this one. A crash course in the Avengers characters and history along with a dynamic plot that brings them together to forge a new, very powerful, lineup. Perez art is always a massive plus.

Avengers (1998 series) 19-23
A seemingly unstoppable Ultron destroys an entire country. It was a tense, escalating story where victory for the heroes looked seemed very much on the line.

Avengers 157
A one shot following on from Black Knight's fate in the Avengers/Defenders war. There's lots of action counterpointed by the Vision's observations on humanity at the end.

Avengers 140s -
The Serpent Crown. For me the more overall consistent story when compared to Korvac and Celestial Madonna stories. Although I did originally read this one more in sequence which may plat a part in me thinking this.

Avengers 355 -
Somewhere about the start of where the Gatherers saga kicks off. This was one that styed with me due to the potential in the storyline. Dead Avengers returning and survivors of alternate Avengers teams being gathered.

Avengers 161 -162.
Another all-action Ultron story. This one has the birth of Jocasta and her poignant sacrifice.

Thanks for chiming in with your own favorites list, Thoth.


This storyline is, for me, the high point of the entire West Coast ongoing run. Really, I think Byrne had his moments on both of the Avengers books, but it was always a plus when Byrne did both story & art. Credit is also due Mike Machlan, who inked these particular issues (he had also inked Jerry Ordway many times in the 80s.) I'm not keen on the follow-through with Wanda going completely over the edge, but "VisionQuest" in and of itself is a solid achievement.


I'm always happy to see these stories get some love. The Kang vs Kooks story is 3 for 3 so far, very heartening.


Yeah, even though the Gatherers Saga is a favorite of mine, in 20-20 hindsight I find that it did peak right around here (I'd personally say from 355 through 362 without a break.) It should have been resolved in 363, or at the very least by 365. Unfortunately, that was the same year as the 30th Anniversary extravaganza and its corresponding "every third issue has to be an event" remit from Marvel execs. Not to mention the contrived participation of the X-Men who were also turning thirty, even if it did afford the pleasure of seeing Steve Epting draw the X-Men.

I (finally) just started the Avengers: The Gathering Omnibus! Two issues in and 343-344 have a LOT going for them--they FEEL like Avengers stories in all the right ways! Interpersonal drama, action, humor, spot-on characterization, classic-feeling Tom Palmer inks over Epting pencils....BRING IT ON!!!

YAY! So glad to hear you're enjoying it, Lardy!

It's been bittersweet revisiting the Avengers work of the late, great inker/colorist Tom Palmer. And not just because we will never see any more new art from him.

A lot of Palmer's most memorable Avengers moments are inextricably linked to a man who is arguably the most problematic of all the Avengers writers: Roy Thomas.

My main issue with Roy is not his plot holes, which I can forgive, nor his cheesy dialogue, which I actually find endearing in its exuberant melodrama. No, what troubles me is the inescapable racism and misogyny on display. Of the former, there is the cringe-inducing portrayal of the Black Panther, which Christopher Priest has sharply and deservedly criticized. Of the latter, only one word need be said: Yellowjacket.

That's my two cents. What about the rest of you Legion Worlders?

Oh man, Roy Thomas can't write women to save his life....I did an All-Star Squadron read a while ago for the first time and I'm actually surprised Liberty Belle comes off as one of the most competent members of the team because it's in stark contrast to the way I've seen him write women literally any other time.

When I read old stuff from the 60s or 70s I know I have to adjust my expectations for the era, but I remember even when he started writing Avengers West Coast in the 90s he did a lot of damage - he turned Mockingbird into an embarassingly incompetent moron who ultimately was just there to die in the stupidest way possible for Clint's manpain...he shuffled Tigra off-stage as soon as he took over the book, and Spider-Woman's whole character beat was pretty much "divorced mum" the whole time she was there. I think in literally the first issue he took over, he had Jan's wasp sting just inexplicably not work for the sole purpose of being able to have one of the guys save her ass.

Come to think of it, was it Roy Thomas who wrote that old Avengers issue where Jan's big feat was avoiding being eaten by a bird before she fell out of a tree and knocked herself out? He really shouldn't be allowed near Janet Van Dyne specifically, I don't know what he's got against the Wasp

I haven't really read a lot of the stuff from T'Challa's first shot at being an Avenger so I can't really comment about that, but again going by Avengers West Coast his default setting for literally any POC seems to be "angry young <insert nationality> man" - he did it with Sunfire, he did it with War Machine and he did it with Living Lightning

EDIT: I actually just remembered the way he shuffled Tigra off was to have her go live with some First Nations tribe in Australia and THAT was cringey as hell because it kinda came across like well yeah obviously the woman who's literally half-animal feels more comfortable around these noble savages in loincloths...so yeah okay I am with you on the racist stuff too!

Liberty Belle was something of an exception, although I think Firebrand showed incredible potential early on. Unfortunately, Roy seemed to quickly get bored with her.

And, yes, Wasp came off very badly when written by Roy. But Hank came off even worse, all the groundwork for his descent under Jim Shooter was already laid out.

Regarding Black Panther, Roy actually made him ridiculously passive and ineffectual. Compare that to the way Kirby and Lee had introduced him as regal and self-assured.

I appreciate you filling us in on Roy's AWC failings. Some people just never learn.

I agree with you on Hank, I feel like that story where Goliath got stuck at 10ft tall kind of set the tone for Hank just being a mess of psychoses moving forward....and then the Yellowjacket stuff speaks for itself obviously (and Jan comes out looking horrible there too)

Actually speaking of Goliath...one of the things I hate most is Hawkeye becoming Goliath, it just really makes zero sense for Clint. His whole schtick is that he's a normal guy even moreso than Cap is, and he's proven that he can stand alongside mutants and gods with just his skill. Bill Foster was right there if they wanted a size-changing guy who wasn't Hank, and it would have made a lot more sense for Bill to become Giant-Man early than it does for Clint to just give up a lifetime of training to become a giant punching bag who never really does anything memorable with his powers.

Off-topic, but I was first introduced to Firebrand through COIE and I instantly loved her because you never get to see female superheroes from that era who aren't someone's sidekick slash girlfriend...it's a shame that the only thing Thomas ever did with her was make her a weird racist for a one issue PSA, if she'd been treated better back in the 80s she might be seen as one of the necessary add-on JSA members these days!

Agree 100% that Clint should never have become Goliath and that Bill should have been the one to take up the mantle from the start. Very well said, Razsolo.

Re: Firebrand, check out the Re-reads thread circa March 2020 for a lively discussion of the first 20 issues of All Star Squadron.

Jason Aaron is finally leaving Avengers at the end of this year! I'm temporarily without a PC and I don't know how to link with my phone. Could someone please post a link to the announcement on Marvel's official website? Thanks!

Much appreciated, Thoth