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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,129
Leader
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Leader
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“Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.” - Cicero
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,651
Wanderer
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Wanderer
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,651 |
That was great fun! Steve Shives often come sup on my Youtube "suggestions" but I have usually skipped it because I don't have the time for his longer videos, but now having watched this one I thik I will make the time. Great commentary.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 86,215
Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 86,215 |
I skimmed through it - usually I don't have the attention span or time to watch videos, but I did like how he explains (some) stuff! I'll need to make time to finish watching 
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447 |
The main thesis of this comes at the end. To paraphrase, "If you open a book that has good writers and talented artists, there's a chance you may be reading the best comic ever." So yeah in the end, it doesn't matter a whit. When a new writer or even editor comes on board a title that has been going for years, the tone is going to change based on the direction they want to take. Levitz taking the reins in the early 80s is a great example, as is DnA in the reboot. I think the issue becomes when the characters are altered to such a degree they become almost unrecognizable from what they were before. Which may or may not coincide with the quality of writing 
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,129
Leader
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Leader
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,129 |
“Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.” - Cicero
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447 |
Bingo - I didn't know you could link to the second on YouTube. I really wish they would have a transcription feature for all their videos.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 86,215
Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 86,215 |
The main thesis of this comes at the end. To paraphrase, "If you open a book that has good writers and talented artists, there's a chance you may be reading the best comic ever." So yeah in the end, it doesn't matter a whit. When a new writer or even editor comes on board a title that has been going for years, the tone is going to change based on the direction they want to take. Levitz taking the reins in the early 80s is a great example, as is DnA in the reboot. I think the issue becomes when the characters are altered to such a degree they become almost unrecognizable from what they were before. Which may or may not coincide with the quality of writing I agree... continuity is also important to an extent, as long as the character embodies the spirit of the original iteration.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447 |
I agree... continuity is also important to an extent, as long as the character embodies the spirit of the original iteration. This is right, I think. Its one of the reasons that I think the v4/5YL had so many problems - they completely over-tied themselves to the past continuity (and editorial whims) that overburdened the story (IMO) to such a way as to make it difficult for new readers, instead of just doing their thing and telling the story. But the *characters* were there and that's why it mattered and so many people liked it. I submit that if Giffen had just said "OK, no supes references" and changed/altered names without going through retcon story after retcon story, 5YL would have been a much more streamlined story and, perhaps, more accessible.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447 |
The one other thing that I thing DOES matter to the Legion with regards to the constant rebooting are the characters that get left behind. It happens way too often, and the characters between boots are what keeps interest alive - meaning most of the time, Cosmic Boy is the basically the same guy, and if you like him as your fave, all is good. But if you like a new one, and that character is not represented moving forward, then you're less inclined to read the book anymore.
You can get away with doing that with side characters in a Batman or Superman comic, but on a team book like the Legion, that can become problematic.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,892
Fighting Back
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Fighting Back
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,892 |
I submit that if Giffen had just said "OK, no supes references" and changed/altered names without going through retcon story after retcon story, 5YL would have been a much more streamlined story and, perhaps, more accessible. Agreed 100 percent.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,930
Trap Timer
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Trap Timer
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 40,930 |
I dunno. While I agree the obsessive retconning was a huge problem for 5YL, I kind of hated the Retroboot strategy of introducing a Legion that basically looked like the Legion circa Crisis, would occasionally reference pre-Crisis stories, but made pretty much no efforts to figure out a coherent continuity for the team.
There has to be a balance somewhere in-between.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,892
Fighting Back
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Fighting Back
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,892 |
I dunno. While I agree the obsessive retconning was a huge problem for 5YL, I kind of hated the Retroboot strategy of introducing a Legion that basically looked like the Legion circa Crisis, would occasionally reference pre-Crisis stories, but made pretty much no efforts to figure out a coherent continuity for the team.
There has to be a balance somewhere in-between. I'm always up for a creative challenge. How about...combine the basic concepts of the Retroboot and the Five Year Gap, and have the Five Year Gap happen immediately after the tryouts in Baxter Legion issue 14?
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447
Legionnaire!
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Legionnaire!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,447 |
Well, not just the obsessive retconning, but the obsessive adherence to every little event that happened, which to some degree drove some of that retconning. (I'm thinking here of the Reflecto story wrangling they did, but I know there were tons of others).
Just tell the story and let the past come in when needed, but don't shackle the story to it to that degree, especially when the events in question happened in the early sixties! Every now and then that kind of reference is cool, but not a whole run.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,892
Fighting Back
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Fighting Back
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,892 |
Well, not just the obsessive retconning, but the obsessive adherence to every little event that happened, which to some degree drove some of that retconning. (I'm thinking here of the Reflecto story wrangling they did, but I know there were tons of others).
Just tell the story and let the past come in when needed, but don't shackle the story to it to that degree, especially when the events in question happened in the early sixties! Every now and then that kind of reference is cool, but not a whole run. And again, I agree 100 percent.
Still "Fickles" to my friends.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,129
Leader
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Leader
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,129 |
Now That James Gunn And Peter Safran Have Taken Over Here Are Six End-Credit Scenes Which Never Had A Payoff In The DCEU (and never will)
Superman appears at the end of Black Adam (No more Henry Cavill Superman)
Mr. Mind appears at the end of Shazam (Does not appear in Shazam 2, and there will be no more Shazam movies)
Asteria appears at the end of Wonder Woman 1984 (No more Gal Gadot Wonder Woman)
Martian Manhunter appears at the end of Justice League (That JLA is history)
Deathstroke appears at the end of Justice League (That JLA is history)
Sinestro (in yellow) appears at the end of Green Lantern (Well, we have known for a long time there will be no more Ryan Reynolds as Green Lantern)
“Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.” - Cicero
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 86,215
Unseen, not unheard
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Unseen, not unheard
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 86,215 |
well, there we go. Another victim of DC's endless reboots and retcons
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