Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Reboot Re-read: DnA Legion

This is a good question. I think it gets back to the underlying theme of the story: faith. As I wrote above, faith (or trust) plays a crucial role in how everything turns out. I think Kid Q trusted in Shvaughn's experience as an SP officer to safeguard Zoe and give her whatever emotional support she needed to keep Earth's shield open. There was no sense in Shvaughn accompanying the Legionnaires. Staying with Zoe was the best thing for her to do.


Good point. Brainy certainly matured in a lot of ways under DnA. I really like this mature version of him as depicted in this story--he's confident without being arrogant. He's aware of the people around him but stays true to his understanding of the universe. The preboot Brainy never really got to explore these different sides of himself.


Of the things you mentioned, the only one I'm really concerned about is the volleyball-transformed people. This isn't directly addressed, but Jaz, in her final narration, says, "It took [Robotica] a day to put things right." I suppose we can infer that they restored the volleyballs to people.

One other thing I really liked about this issue was the depiction of Lyle. His invisibility is put to good use, as is his "frenemy" relationship with Brainy. I loved it that Brainy appealed to him as someone who could grasp the concepts of Computo's evolution. (Brainy is a tad condescending here, but that's Brainy.) And then Lyle very logically deconstructs Sharn Nux's claim that Brainy is "twisted."

I'll agree it was successful, but I won't call it a victory lap at all. They did a good job at plotting, but I feel that they missed the mark on characterizations and relationships in favor of mega world-bending plot devices. While TMK advanced five years to DnA's one, TMK at least understood that the relationship between the characters was the core of the Legion's heart. I don't feel that DnA hit that mark at all. Was it impressive? Yeah! But I think one grand disaster after another, with many deus ex machinae solutions, combined with an odd lack of focus on character relationships held back what could have been an amazing continuation of Lost.


Is she? It would have been great if we had heard about that. Last we hear, she's telling Erin to run, but somehow Shvaughn convinced her to save humanity? I would have loved to have seen that and it would have added depth to Kinetix.


So my problem with this is that prior to DnA they are clearly on a relationship trajectory. Then DnA resets this. It was a massively bad call to not have them together at this point, IMO. Pre-reboot, new writing teams would at least explain why a relationship situation was as it is - here, McAvennie kicked his feet up on the desk and let DnA do whatever they liked. Yes, the reboot is different, but the reboot had also shown the two becoming closer.


Yeah, I totally loved this part, too. It's really the heart of the multi-parter here and, if you think about it, the whole first year of this title. Just great stuff. To Jaz, at the end of the day, its a no brainer decision, but its still hard.


I was a little disappointed that they made this choice with Computo and not at least have him vocalizing something.


It works, but its a too often used crutch. Pre-DnA, we'd have an entire issue devoted to the aftermath. I don't know whose decision that was, the writers or the editors, but it was the wrong decision, especially for a story of this scale.


I actually didn't have a problem with this ending, as I assumed that the glowing figure was the combination of Nux and Computo meeting Darkseid, so I say bring it on! And like you mentioned above, its an ongoing, so you need to have lots on the table for the future!

This is a great point - and I agree 100%


I overall agree - its a definitive ending of an arc, for sure. The point of Steeple is interesting - its the only real place that we haven't revisited (other than Rimbor, but who wants to go back there!) from LW.


It is. The other question that seems to be willfully ignored is the fact that the Blight-controlled Legionnaires led people to their death. Or am I misunderstanding what the Blight were doing in LotD?

Completely agree here about Lyle. He was portrayed here as being very heroic and intelligent.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because, from my perspective, there was plenty of focus on characterization and relationships. Ayla, for example, comes through strongly in her various scenes, as does Lyle. I think the characterization/relationships aren't always what we might have hoped for, but sometimes they reveal things about the characters we hadn't expected. For instance, I mentioned Ayla's adoption of the Live Wire name as an indication that she wants to take over her brother's founder status. I don't know if that's what DnA intended, but I love being able to add pieces of a puzzle together and try to figure out where they are going. Likewise for Jo and Tinya. Tinya hasn't seen her husband in over a year. In that moment, she's willing to forgive any infidelity she suspects. Real people do this all the time. Confronted by the real person standing before them, many people embrace the moment rather than insisting on an explanation that might be unpleasant.

I loved it that DnA didn't spoonfeed the relationships to us. They chose to let us interpret things as we will from the evidence given.


I never quite picked that up from TMK. So much was happening on so many fronts (and most in nine-panel grids!) that the characters often seemed dwarfed by the events surrounding them. I like TMK, but I learned to appreciate it many years after it was published. To me, DnA did a much better job of showing relationships while keeping the story moving.


I agree about the use of deus ex machina (or deus ex Zoe). But, as I said above, I thought the relationships were handled well. For example, Val sacrifices a lot to stay with Andy. Rokk gives up his position as leader for Jazmin, who brings a fresh perspective to the Legion. Imra and Ayla try to connect about their desire for a founder to be in charge, but each adjusts to the change in different ways. Lyle proves he can be an insensitive piece of sh*t, but, on the other hand, his devotion to logic allows him to see Brainy's perspective. There's a lot of relationship stuff going on here.


The fact that Kinetix opens the shield and tries to keep it open tells me everything I need to know. A lot of storytelling happens off-panel or off-camera. We can infer the rest.


I didn't remember that Chuck and Lu had been shown as becoming closer pre-DnA, so I'll trust your perspective on this. I do think it's a nice scene, though.


I didn't mind the cliffhanger; I just thought it was unnecessary. I would have been fine if the issue had ended with Jo reuniting with his wife and meeting his baby. But, comics being what they are, a cliffhanger is part of the deal.

Yeah, and I totally appreciate your take, even though I don't agree w/it 100%. There ARE interesting individual moments with the characters, don't get me wrong, but like we've discussed earlier, DnA seemed intent on breaking many of the characters as they were before rebuilding them into different characters altogether, and as I look at this reboot arc as a whole, many of those elements don't sit well with me. And when I say characterization, I think I'm meaning "focusing" on a character for at least a "b" story or part of the arc. Vi, Sensor, Lyle, Chuck, Gear, all had "something to do" but never had a significant part of the story or focus for 13 issues, as DnA would continue to focus on Ayla, Imra, Brainy, Jazmin, Jo - essentially most of the Lost crew. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself that well in regards to that, but they seemed to stick to their favorites.

And I guess that's fine from a writer's prerogative - they pitched a story and were given free rein. But in the best Legion stories, most Legionnaires over the course of over a year's worth of books have some kind of a spotlight at some point.


See, that's exactly how I feel about DnA's story arcs - one world buster event after another at the expense of the little background moments that were typically spread around the team.


Well, of all those, I think the only "relationship" displayed there is Imra and Ayla. Val/Andy, we barely see anything there as the story is focused on Val, and Lyle's moment is less about his relationship w/Brainy IMO. Rokk and Jazmin could have used a few more frames.



The problem for me was that an issue earlier she is conveyed as a threat to Shvaughn, then suddenly all is well. The turnaround of that kind of a threat so fast deserved some kind of screen time. Otherwise, I'm reading this wondering WTF just happened? I just think it was a really bad storytelling choice.


Absolutely its a great scene! But it is presented in a way that kind of ignored the earlier run. Same with Ayla and Cham, for that matter. DnA gives hints of a relationship, but I was frankly shocked they didn't have them have SOME kind of a moment after Cham delivers the news to Ayla about Garth. Again, ignoring the previous run, which tells me that McAvennie wanted to put a lot of distance between the pre-DnA universe. I think that was a bad call, as while there was a definite decline in quality in the early part of McAvennie running the show and ending the books, that which came prior had a LOT of good stuff to it.

Speaking of Garth, I know there is a LOT of stuff going on in these 13 issues, but the fact that he was not even memorialized AT ALL in thirteen issues was, frankly, horrible for a team-oriented book. And DnA were the ones that killed all these Legionnaires!


Agreed.

To your earlier point of these being written for collected omni's, I think you're right. We have the initial part of the DnA run collected (LotD), and Lost, into respective Omnis but not Worlds nor the first 13 issues of The Legion, which I agree would be a nice packaged arc. Overall, I think I'd give the whole (from Damned to Legion 13) a solid B-, which is something for me given my response to Ann's poll back in the spring, as there is a lot of good, but it had many challenges that held it back from being in the "A" category:

The story choices and art in Legion of the Damned are kind of like the original sin of this run to me - both really tainted everything I read from DnA after that.
The character choices of Lost - turning Jan into a murderer had major dramatic value, but damaged my view of what they wanted to do to the franchise.
I continue to view the use of Ra's as a horrible choice that also defines this run for me. It *is* balanced out to some degree by the Venge/Robotica reveal.
The dragging out of Tinya/Jo even more (sorry, I can't stand the characters in the reboot).
The repeated world buster and accompanying Deus ex plots.

But DnA did some really great things over this arc as well:

Defined Jazmin as a bona fide leader
Gave the reboot a GREAT Timber Wolf
Turned Dreamer into a badass.

But overall, the story arc so far of The Legion was a good read.

The Legion, over all its incarnations, has been a blend of Sci-Fi and Superheroes with superpowers. The trick is, I think in the mix of how those are presented. DnA's take had a very Sci Fi heavier blend in their mix, and maybe that's what I'm having a bit of blockage around. Most other Legion incarnations, IMO anyway as I read through them, focus more on the Superheroes than the Sci-Fi, which tends to be more backdrop.

Anyway, on to the Wacker era of the Legion! Will have something up on 14 this weekend!

This is a really good point. A memorial scene instead of a cliffhanger would have been an emotional final page and would have upheld the best of Legion traditions. The memorial could have honored Garth, Candi, and perhaps even pre-transformation Jan. (I'm reminded of Kirk's commendation for Gary Mitchell at the end of "Where No Man Has Gone Before": Mitchell didn't ask for what happened to him, and neither, apparently, did Jan.)

Exactly - I mean, I do remember that they get around to it eventually, but the loss of Garth is kind of a Big Deal not to really deal with at the team level within 13 issues.

Also - I meant to say issue 15 earlier! 14 was the wrap up of the Robotica arc.

the eventually happens next issue I think? I seem to remember Kid Quantum II giving Spark a talking-to then.

Spark is being comforted by Cham, among others, a nice nod to their relationships and friendships from before too.

I think it was the "nod to" versus the "continuation of" that I had an issue with. When we say a "nod to" in Legion terms, its usually around one version of the Legion (i.e., the reboot) referencing something from Pre-ZH. Here we have the same universe and the only couple relationships we see kept are the "hot & heavy" ones (let's say where they were shown kissing), so Imra/Garth, Tinya/Jo, Thom/Nura. Everything else, including relationships that had been building for years (Spark/Cham, Lu/Chuck), as well as lots of friendships, were just tossed aside, and I missed that.

Maybe having the luxury of two books being published allowed more of that to happen pre-DnA, but I'm not sure.

hmm I don't think it was just having 2 books earlier, but there were stretches of day-in-the-life type stories between the big ones. there were tons more quiet moments.

pacing was certainly more... relaxed? stretched out? not sure of the word. but the pre-DNA Reboot often had longer build-ups.

and we more often had scenes of smaller groups, where the relationships could play out more.

Let's take -

1) LSH 0 - 64 and Legionnaires 0-20 were mainly one and two-parters (Mano on the Moon was a two-parter), building the team. (total: 7 issues)

Then L*21-22 and LSH 65 was the Planet Hell 3-parter.

2) L*23-28 and LSH 66-72 and LSH Annual 6 was a slow burn, adding Zoe, Vi, Andromeda; introducing and building slowly the White Triangle threat, punctuated by a few 2-parters (Tangleweb, Composite Durlan) , before ending with the climax in L* Annual 2 and the aftermath in LSH 72! (total: 16 issues!)

3) Then LSH 73-77 + L* 29-35 slowly built up the Chu sting and Fatal Five/Sun-Eater bit, again with a few two-parters (Superboy/Valor, Chronos, Jan-as-Starfinger, Ayla and Garth finally track down Mekt). (total: 12 issues)

4) LSH 78-80 and L*36-37 were the Sun-Eater/Chu/Fatal Five story proper; but even here it's tough to pin it down. L*34 already introduced the Sun-Eater, L*35 was a spotlight on the Legion's support staff while the main team was away. L* 37 was an aftermath story. L* Annual 3 fit in here, which followed XS' return to the 30th century. If I exclude L* 34 and 35, we have 7 issues.

5) We got breathers again with L* 38 and LSH 81-82 (3 issues); then LSH 83-84 and L*39-41 shook us up with Emerald Violet (again, we had L*41 dedicated solely to the aftermath!) (5 issues)

6) LSH 85-LSH 100 and L* 42-56 had the Team 20/30 split. IN between we had L* 47/LSH 91 as the "stuck in timestream" two-parter; L* 48-50 had Mordru and the Emerald Vi resolution with L* 51-53 as the aftermath of that (Vi gaining her growth powers, Monstress joining, Magno leaving), and LSH 98-100 as the COMPUTO 3-parter. Secret Files 1 came out towards the end of this.

breaking this bit down: LSH had 13 issues before the 3-issue COMPUTO story; L* had 6 issues, then 3-parter Mordru, 3 issues for aftermath, and 3 more issues before the team reunited.

7) LSH 101-104 and L* 57-60 set up the Dark Circle, L* 61/LSH 105 was the anniversary two-parter with the Time Trapper and appearances of the Preboot Legion. LSH 105-108 and L*62-65 were the Dark Circle six-parter plus aftermath. (8 issues before the 7 issues for Dark Circle).

Then the team split between Earth and Outpost -

8) LSH 109-115, single issues + Bizarro Legion (7 issues), then 3-parter Lord Pernisius (LSH 116-118), then 119 stand alone, then 120-121 Fatal Five 2-parter.

L* 66-70 (5 single issues0), then L* 71-74 (Elements of Disaster + aftermath = 4 issues), then L* 75-77 (3 single issues).

Secret Files 2 also came out around this time

Compare and contrast with DNA:

1) L* 78, single issue
2) L* 79-80 and LSH 122-123, Legion of the Damned (4 issues)
3) L* 81,, LSH 124-125, Widening Rifts (3 issues)
4) Legion Lost (12 issues)
5) Legion Worlds (6 single issues)
6)) Legion 1-5 (5 interconnected single issues)
7) Legion 6-8 Ra's/Hypertaxis (3 issues)
8) Legion 9 (stand alone)
9) Legion 10-14 (5 issues for Robotica)
10) Legion 15-16 (Timber Wolf 2-parter)
11) Legion 17-18 (Sensor 2-parter)
12) Legion 19-23 (5 parts Dream Crime)
13) Legion 24 (Umbra)
14) Legion 25-30 and Secret files (7 issues for Foundations)
15) Legion 31 (Chuck and Gear)
16) Legion 32-33 (two parter to wrap up Credo, though I think it was intended to be far longer)
17) Legion 34 (Wildfire on Qward)
18) Legion 35-38 (Gail Simone's 4-parter)

then Infinite Crisis, which I pretend never happened

so yeah, the pacing was a lot different for sure!

but I do think there's a point here, the pre-DNA era had 2 books a month, which allowed for a lot more density. Imagine telling those stories in one book, it would have taken twice as long to move the plot for sure...

heck, it's not easy planning in 22-page chunks eh? That's why I have never attempted to write anything in comic book format...

This is a great breakdown, Ibby!

Yeah, its tough for sure, but just looking at this is pretty interesting. I think a good yardstick to make it more apples to apples compared are the 'Split" runs where you had the 20/30 split so Legionnaires had their own story going while LSH was doing crossover of the month with the DCU. Legionnaires was able to tell a pretty coherent story with Mordru over the course of a year or so, but the story didn't seem as rushed even though the stakes were as high, galactically speaking, and the story had lots of feature moments for most of the established team and even some new/tertiary ones. The later Outpost split was similar, although the quality of the stories was lacking for sure. I'm looking at what we've read and what's to come from DnA and see that there are a lot of character-focused stories versus the team stories, and the team stories certainly had their focus on a subset of Legionnaires, for sure. There's a definite difference of style and character focus.

But I sure don't envy these writers having 22 pages to work in!

The Legion #15

Released December 26, 2002
DC Comics, Color
22 Pages

Legion Rookie Blues
Dan Abnett & Andy Lanning - Writers
Kev Walker - Pencils
Andy Lanning and Simon Coleby - Inks
Jason Wright - Colors
Stephen Wacker - Editor

Synopsis

The story opens in media res, with Timber Wolf looking to be in really bad shape. We quickly flash back 24 hours earlier to the UP Senate is dealing with the aftermath of the Robotican crisis. President Wazzo is sparring with Xanthan delegates pleading for aid in terraforming while they claim the Roboticans were "gifted" a world. The Xanthans are pretty angry about the whole thing, and threaten to withdraw their application to the UP. Predictably, the Coluans withdraw due to the appeasement being shown Robotica, and literally find Brin blocking their way. We get a nice little recap of the last issue with the Coluan Delegate and Brin talking about how Colu had an agent try to eliminate Computo all together.

After thinking fast, the Coluans leave and Kid Quantum enters. Wazzo announces a diplomatic mission to the Kwai Second Galaxy to induct them into the UP, led by special envoy Brande. The president tasks Jazmin to pick a team for the mission. Wazzo sizes up Brin and invites him to visit her to talk in the future.

Back on Legion World's command deck with several other Legionnaires. Jazmin is showing Brin around while Violet takes up a large amount of space. Jaz asks Triad if everything's ready for the Shanghalla memorial. Jaz tasks Brin to hand something over to Lyle. M'Onel and Cosmic Boy discuss the Terrorform situation and plan to do so more with Kinetix. Brin looks for Lyle, not knowing who he is, and we see Ayla grousing to Gates about her code name. XS speeds away suddenly, and Lyle invisibly picks up the pad from Brin.

We return to the "present" with Brin trying to get up from his bad situation. He gets back up only to be smacked back down again.

Flashing back 21 hours, Brin is visiting Imra Cub in the medicenter. Talking to Imra, we see that Imra's heading back to Titan after the memorial for some rehab and stress relief. Brin finally meets Jo when he goes to see Cub, who is floating on the ceiling. Jo is predictably prickly, being from rival Rimbor gangs and spending a lot of time with Tinya, when talking with Brin. Btin tries to smooth things over now that they are both in the Legion. Cub floats down to Brin, who in turn hands him back to Jo. Cub loses it when Brin leaves. Jo clearly has not left a great impression on Brin.

In the "Post-Noon" time we pick back up at Shanghalla for a memorial to those lost in, well, Lost... Kid Quantum concludes the ceremony. Jazmin goes to console a devastated Ayla and habitually calls her Spark before correcting herself. She tries to show she has something in common with Ayla due to her taking her brother's code name, too, but tries to convince Ayla to keep the Spark codename, as its come to define her in many ways. Spark comes to see Jazmin in a new light. We get a quick summary of Jan Arrah's fate from Lost. Jazmin and Brin take a detour to Trom and set up a makeshift memorial to him in the mountains of that world.

Back to Brin in the "present" who is getting his ass kicked.

14 hours prior, Brin's watching Trudy Trusoe's newscast when Tinya comes to visit, convincing him to come out and socialize. Tinya catches him up on the sitch with her and Jo - strained - but Brin urges patience. Of course, they walk into the bar together to immediately see Jo, who stalks away with Tinya chasing after him. Later, Brin and XS are overseeing the transfer of Tharok to Takron-Galtos. She introduces him to Shikari and Wildfire. Jo steps in and is miffed to have to deal with Timber Wolf again. The team takes the prisoner over to the prison ship with Jo and Brin sniping at each other. An explosion interrupts the arguing and the Fatal Five - including Mano this time - swings in to pilfer Tharok.


Commentary

I really enjoyed this issue for the most part. It's definitely a 'breather' issue (which was desperately needed) yet it hinted at something brewing on the horizon with the interludes of Brin getting his ass handed to him. It was like the writers were saving all the quieter interpersonal moments for this one issue after almost three years.

The good stuff? Two words - Jazmin Cullen. She was portrayed SO WELL in this issue, I really love the leader she's turned into. The scene with Ayla was golden. I also felt that this was a pretty good issue for a new reader to jump on board. Lots of interesting stuff here. Also really loved Brin in this issue - he's probably the best thing to come out of the DnA run here, IMO. I like him a lot more than most of the other Legionnaires that have received similar screen time so far, and certainly more than the pre-boot Brin. Also? WE FINALLY GET A MEMORIAL!

The bad? Can we just be done with the Tinya/Jo drama? While the Jo/Brin rivalry is natural and was handled well, I just want this thing with Tinya over with. I didn't like reading about it pre-DnA and I sure as $#!+ don't like reading it years later.

The Ugly? I was NOT a fan of the art in this issue. I didn't feel the characters were drawn well, and when not colored, it was difficult to distinguish the backgrounders, which is not a good thing when dealing with situations like the memorial service.

Other random comments:

Man, Winema REALLY gives off the President Chu vibe.

Why doesn't Robotica magically heal Xanthu like it did when they left Earth? It sure would go along way to galactic peace, and they caused the damage there. One Deus ex Machina deserves another, yes?

Xanthus is technically petitioning for re-admission to the UP, right?

Okay. At this point DnA is specifically writing large Vi into the script, otherwise it wouldn't keep happening. Fully ridiculous. They need to stop, but like the tropes they are addicted to, I know they won't.

Rokk says he's going to discuss the Terrorforms with Zoe. Is it possible for ANYONE to have a real discussion w/Zoe? Unless she's been turned back to normal?

The scene with Brin looking for Lyle was really well done.

I'd say Imra's stress relief is needed after all DnA turned her into

So let me get this straight - Jo is wearing a gang symbol on his Legion uniform? That sounds like it shouldn't be OK.

This Shanghalla is vastly different from the one we last saw. Is that supposed to be Gim Allon in the far background? Again, I'd really enjoy some better connections with what came before DnA. It also doesn't even look like all the Legionnaires are even present. And when they disperse, its really hard to see who spins off with whom.

Nice touch of Cam and I assume Ayla with Jenni, in the background, but its hard to determine for sure initially due to the illustrator. I so much love how they've portrayed Jazmin here. She's redefining what a Legion Leader is.

I'm really not happy about Jan Arrah not having ANY kind of marker on Shanghalla. He literally saved the Earth from the Daxamites. But oh yeah, nothing happened before DnA's fingerprints on the Legion... They didn't even do any editorial callouts for the Early Reboot stuff with James Cullen.

Wait, the Xanthian/Coluan bloc wants to BAN robotican life from colonizing Pluto? I thought that already happened?

It would have been nice to see more of that party (wake?) that Tinya dragged Brin into.

Overall grade: B+. The Art and some of the ridiculous shenanigans above dragged down an otherwise great Legion story.

Agree with the Jazmin love, nice to see Ayla respond well to Jaz's talk.

Agree that the art was awful.

The Jo/Tinya/Brin drama was jarring, considering the very nice reunion scene with Tinya/Jo/Cub just last issue. I would have been happy for it to have been all over. Also... Tinya read Jo's letter to Imra, now HE is the one jealous. Just so done with this drama.

Brin calling out Orin Fex was well done, but also wonder why Colu didn't get more fallout from that. they probably disavowed Sharn Nux, "she was a rogue agent!" so that explains.

I enjoyed it, too. It was a breath of fresh air after the heaviness of the Ra's al Ghul and Robotica arcs. "New kid on the block" stories are often effective as a means of introducing new readers to a series, and this is extremely well done. Brin Londo, a gang kid from the 'bor, finds himself at the UP Congress (nice name) on his first official day as a Legionnaire, and overwhelmed with politicians, bureaucracy, and posturing. The preboot Timber Wolf probably wouldn't have been so polite when the Coluan representative told him to get out of his way, but this Brin is trying not to make waves--but he takes no b.s. when pressed. I loved it that he addressed Winema as "Missus Wazzo" and had to be corrected. I loved it when, asked to give Invisible Kid an omnicom, he looked around at all the costumed figures--some Legionnaires and some not--and asked "Which one is he again?" I loved it that Tinya left him at the party to run after Jo. Brin is a fish out of water--or a wolf out of the forest, perhaps--and his disorientation about these new surroundings and people is understandable and amusing. But he's also portrayed as intelligent and assertive when pushed. In his relatively few appearances so far, he's come across as a fully realized character, and I like him much better than his preboot counterpart (though I did like Dave Cockrum's wolfish appearance for Brin better than the long-haired gang-banger motif).


Totally agree. And now I understand why DnA didn't include a memorial scene last issue. They devoted much more time and space to it here. And--again through Timber Wolf's eyes--we get to see so much about the Legionnaires in a fresh perspective.

And Jaz, just wow! Her scene with Ayla is indeed golden. Platinum even.


I actually like where DnA are going with this. Jo and Tinya are two rather immature young people who are now married and have a baby. Their relationship has been further tested by being Legionnaires and a long separation. They aren't quite sure how to process all they've been through. Misunderstandings are rife, and imaginations run amok. It doesn't help that the man Jo is indebted to for Tinya and Cub's safety is a member of a rival gang. Those old loyalties don't disappear overnight. We might think that Jo should be grateful to Brin, but that's a mature reaction that is beyond him at the moment. (Brin seems only slightly more mature in his dealings with Jo. He is quite easily baited by his so-called rival.) I loved the handshaking scene. You could tell neither's heart was in it.

One thing I don't understand, though, is why Jo accepted "Cub" as his baby's name. It's a horrible name, and one chosen by Brin. Why Jo--and Tinya, for that matter--allowed it to stand is beyond me.


I still love Kev Walker's art and thought he did an outstanding job in several aspects. His faces are full of emotion, such as Jaz at the bottom of Page 13 and the bloody Brin on Page 17. The latter is cartoony, but it conveys Brin's defiance. There's also an atmospheric quality to Walker's art, especially during the Trom scene.


Good question. I presume it's a very long way to Xanthu. It took Robotica some time to get from Xanthu to Earth, and they no longer have the benefit of Computo's spacewarp (or whatever he used to get them to earth faster. I don't recall the terminology and am too lazy to look it up). In any event, someone could have *asked* them to help Xanthu.


True, but, as with Lyle being invisible for no reason at all, Vi's size just adds to the strangeness of Brin's new surroundings.


Probably no one in the Legion noticed or cared about this before. The Legionnaires would probably not be aware of how particular symbols are used in the cultures of each world of the UP. And Jo wore this costume when he was a member of Workforce before he joined the Legion, correct? So, he already had an established "hero identity" that no one would have thought to ask him to change.


It's a very strange and moody depiction. I didn't mind it. Again, if this is understood to be from Brin's perspective, then it must be strange to him. As for all the Legionnaires being present, I think it's understandable if some were left behind to handle any emergencies that might come up.

You're paying more attention to the background details than I am--and that's good! I focussed on the point of the scene--honoring the dead, which includes Jaz's encouragement to Spark that the best way to honor Live Wire was to be herself.


I interpret this differently. Jaz made a choice not to honor Jan during the ceremony because she wasn't sure how everyone would react. Element Lad killed two of their fellow Legionnaires and betrayed the ideals they stand for. When Brin says "It was a Legionnaire, wasn't it?" it really drives home the sense of betrayal many of them must have been feeling.

Instead, Jaz chose to honor Jan in private--on his homeworld and with the memory crystals, and with Brin for emotional support. Like she says, he was impartial. I thought it was brilliant writing and showed a good understanding of the characters.

I'm not sure why it was needed to do an editorial callout for James Cullen. In the dialogue and the shadowy image of his statue, we're told what we need to know.

And, lastly, I want to say that it makes perfect sense the Fatal Five would interfere with the Legion's plans to transfer Tharok. I take back what I said about wishing DnA had stopped at #14. I'm curious to see (again) where they go from here.

I didn't reread the issue, so I'm going from memory.

that said, Jaz honoring Jan in private indeed made sense - what happened to Jan was terrible and momentous, and maybe not everyone can wrap their head around it yet (this will be explored more in Legion 25, so it's not like DNA has forgotten).

I also did like the whimsical elements that made being a Legionnaire so strange (Lyle being invisible, XS suddenly zooming away from Brin, giant Vi). they don't make sense... to us, or to Brin. (I do agree that giant Vi in the background is an overused thing by DNA though! but in this particular instance, it works)

I love Brin having trouble fitting in, but using his grit and intelligence and "good heart" (it was palpable how concerned he was for Jenni, Wildfire and Shikari vs. the Fatal Five; not so much Jo, but he also didn't want Jo to die).

While I agree with HWW that Tinya/Jo drama is realistic, what annoys me about it is a) they just had a nice reunion last issue, which frankly set things up for me to think they would have had an adult talk about everything, and catch up! This actually feels like a step DOWN from their relationship, though I acknowledge they've been apart from a while - things change. and b) I don't think we ever see them resolve their marital problems, it just hangs on as a subplot that goes nowhere. Like the Zoe-as-Terrorform thing, it drags on too long with no real pay-off other than being used for background drama.

Tinya tells Brin that she and Jo "haven't managed to talk properly yet." I don't think the scenes in this issue contradict the happy reunion of last issue. Relationships always have ups and downs, and when two people haven't seen each other in a while, they tend to grow in different directions. That makes broaching difficult subjects even harder. I can imagine what Tinya might be thinking. Just how does she come out and ask Jo if anything happened between him and Imra? And Jo sees his wife coming to the party accompanied by another young man who also accompanied her from Rimbor. He knows he wasn't there for the birth of his son, but Brin was. That makes it even harder for him to process his own feelings.

I agree with you on point b). It's disappointing that DnA never resolved Jo and Tinya's marital woes. But, for right now at least, I think they did a brilliant job of exploring those woes. There is so much that resonates psychologically. For example, when Brin asks Tinya how things are going for her, she avoids answering him directly and talks about Cub instead. When Brin presses, she opens up to him. Clearly, she's comfortable talking to him--which could be another reason Jo is jealous.

Going to try to consolidate comments here, so wish me luck...


I agree w/you 100% on Brin here. I definitely like the Cockrum appearance better than this one, which seems to be modeled after the LSH harier version after TMK left the book. The Invisible Kid gag reminded me of the large LSH figure collection you can find here and there on eBay, where the Invisible Kid figure is just an empty case.


I still think that the meeting scene should have had some kind of a "moment of silence" from Rokk or something.


I think my bad blood with the whole situation is that I think we were given a bit of a head fake by DnA from the start. By the time DnA rolled around, the Jo & Tinya melodrama and codependencey was well overused and old. In Legionnaires 78, we are given a taste that they are going to mature their relationship. Then DnA doubles down on their drama across Lost with the Imra kiss, then adds insult to injury by giving them a kid in Worlds, then having drama around that. Yes, the Jo/Brin scene was good and was handled authentically. My point is that the choice to even have this as a plot in the book is horrible. If not for this, we could have had an issue without Cub running around the Footstep ship and pages of other characters' stories. Regardless of how authentic or well portrayed their reactions are, the fact that we are even looking at this on the page is insulting to me.

The Tinya/Jo relationship in the reboot is all kinds of bad and shame on DnA for including so much of it. And yes, having them retain the name Cub is another horrible idea. Tinya/Jo is probably one of the worst things about the reboot in general. They had their drama issues with a third of her bodies getting fried, then having her stuck as a phantom, then the marriage drama. The creatives needed to put them on the back burner for a while.


I'd agree with the Trom scene - but maybe its because the environment is so sparse. But not much else - the more crowded the scene gets, the worse the art becomes. His Mano looks horrible.


I think the depiction was fine, but the lack of continuity is what I didn't like. One theme of this run is that they were gonna make their own version, past happenings be damned.


I think I was spoiled by the prior run, especially under Carlson's editorship, where those little details were often in the background of any particular pane (the Gim Allon memorial comes to mind as an apt comparison).


Oh I get why, I just don't agree with it, nor with their original idea of turning Jan bad, so the Legionnaires aren't the only ones prickly about the subject. LOL That said, the private Trom memorial was very nice.


But a new reader may wonder what this is about. Half the fun of comics in this era was callout to past events and issues. To this day, I will never understand why DnA treated their predecessors' works like they had the plague.


I'm glad you mentioned this, as I failed to comment on that last page revelation - I think this is really cool as well. I'm always up for a Fatal Five story, so I'm curious to see how DnA handles this, as I didn't remember reading this the last time.


It just stretches out the drama even longer. At least Garth died, so Imra has to deal with that. DnA intentionally drew out a disfunctional relationship over the course of three years that could have been either a)avoided as per my earlier comments or b)wrapped up MUCH faster.

As I said, I agree it?s realistic / but I also agree with GL it dragged on for too long. And coupled with all the earlier history these two had, it soured me on the whole thing

The jealousy thing had been done in LSH 85-96, where Tinya was an intangible wraith in the 20th century: she was jealous of Jo and Shvaughn, and Jo finally dispelled that by marrying Tinya. Then after Tinya became tangible again and they returned to the 30th century, they went to couple?s counseling in LSH 102 which also involved Tinya processing her Carggite selves? disparate histories.

For a couple that did such things? well, it just annoys me that they had been so mature before, and now they?re acting like immature brats again. That?s why I said it felt like a ate back. I can accept that they have some initial drama after more than a year apart, but not for such a prolonged period of time (like GL said, more than 3 years in real time!)

I haven't been re-reading the pre-DnA issues (or pre-Worlds, actually), so I'm at a disadvantage in seeing the broader context of Jo and Tinya's relationship. I do think that indications that they would mature do not mean they actually would or that they would continue to grow consistently. People promise to quit smoking all the time and backslide.

Yeah, I think me reading this from the Zero issues moving forward is certainly coloring my view. If one were to just start at the DnA stories, one could totally be OK with the content with Tinya/Jo. But as someone reading the reboot from its start, this is retread. I guess the analogy that might fit best is that I'm watching the JJ Abrams Star Wars, where we see a very similar story, but this time we have the same characters yet again in a similar variation on a very similar theme.

Ultimately, I blame McAvennie - he was in charge editorially and could have put his foot down but did not.

I agree that a given couple could, but they got married in LSH 96 and has therapy in LSH 102 - and had no problems again until DNA came aboard. So until LSH 121 all was smooth sailing, and they did have disagreements in that time but handled them quite maturely. In my view, those weren?t just indications - they were reality.

As someone who has been to therapy many times over my life, I can tell you that therapy does not lead to constant and continuous progress. Many things can happen to cause patients to backslide. Sometimes they just stop working on the things they need to work on. (And since Jo and Tinya were separated for over a year, they didn't have a chance to continue to work on their relationship.)

But I understand what you and GL are saying. Neither of you is happy with this arc for various reasons. I guess my perspective is a little different because I was never a fan of Jo or Tinya before the reboot, yet I find myself being drawn into their struggles as a young couple, having to go through death (!) and other challenges. After Jo went through the pain of losing Tinya and then getting her back first as a phantom and then in physical form, one would hope they could overcome any other problems in their relationship. But life doesn't work that way.

I think we can agree to disagree, HWW, on our liking for this bit I do think we all 3 agree that it's realistic - at least in the sense that real couples do go through these things. Where we differ, I believe, is on how realistic we want our comics to be - and GL, please jump in if I'm wrongly speaking for you, but from our conversations I think we both liked the shiny optimism of the Reboot, that our heroes can overcome even the darkest of struggles and earn a happy ending, that these heroes represent the best aspects of humanity and can earn their happiness after improving themselves.

I agree life doesn't work this way - but these are comic books, not real life, and I want my happy endings

I'm OK with a degree of realism in comics from a relationship perspective, but it needs to be a mix that skews to a positive ending. To change the subject to Ayla breifly, I actually like DnA's arc for her character, as that makes complete sense - she's lost her twin and is trying to figure out her place in the new world - and more importantly it was FRESH. The TJ saga was overdone with one thing after another without real resolution. I would much more enjoyed a take on Ayla and Cham, for example, which is something that we were promised but was never really dealt with in the prior run. Just let TJ be happy for a while and focus on other/newer couples.