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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008038 10/07/21 07:01 AM
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Good call outs - as I recall, the individual page bios were indeed intended to be pinups. But its a great point - the only real story that ties in to the arc at the time is Zoe's and that doesn't really come into play until AFTER the White Triangle story is over. I do remember that this is what REALLY ignited the "Zoe-as-Emerald-Empress" fan speculation that ended up making the creators shift their plans.

Also really good points about the Legionnaire deaths. I remember a bunch of criticism at the time about two of the deaths being female, but we do know that both of those were planned out as to their outcome in advance.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008047 10/07/21 02:16 PM
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I read a lot of these out of order, but indeed, for someone reading it in order... Triad hospitalized, Saturn Girl catatonic, Chameleon orphaned, Kinetix depowered... whew! that's a lot of bad luck and sidelined team members in such a short time! And mostly female indeed... hm! though I remember the team commenting at the end of LSH 66, 8 girls 5 guys...

Kinetix was always meant to be borderline re her powerlust. She was so manic and crazed at the thought of power... and Vi was right to call her out, again, for being so reckless she could have crushed her. Heck, Zoe didn't even notice...

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008058 10/08/21 12:25 AM
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About Gim being a bad leader. I wonder if he?s a bad leader BECAUSE he was a Sci-Cop. Like, he?s used to working with people trained to follow orders and be one of many. So when faced with teammates who question orders and grandstand (Kid Quantum I), and without training, well?

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Invisible Brainiac #1008062 10/08/21 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
About Gim being a bad leader. I wonder if he?s a bad leader BECAUSE he was a Sci-Cop. Like, he?s used to working with people trained to follow orders and be one of many. So when faced with teammates who question orders and grandstand (Kid Quantum I), and without training, well?

I think this is exactly right and was ruminating about this yesterday as well. Assuming the Sci-Cops are paramilitary and have an enforced hierarchy, those trained to give and follow orders would do just that. The Legion is more of a football team, where there is one person calling strategy, but the execution varies by the person doing a particular function. The first scenario is very binary, while the second requires a lot more finesse AND talent to be successful. Granted a strict hierarchy would be better with great leadership, the leader/subordinate relationship makes execution a bit easier as its automatically expected.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008067 10/08/21 09:21 AM
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Yeah! Good point about the differences in leadership style effectiveness versus situation

And the Legion? well, once they got their individual uniforms, and considering their inspiration was great heroes like the Justice League? it?s all about individuals coming together to make a whole, a whole better than its parts? but still individuals

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008069 10/08/21 09:41 AM
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Yep - and when a paramilitary leader tries to impose that kind of leadership process on a group of individuals who may or may not respond to that, the end result is typically a mess.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008293 10/13/21 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Showcase '95 #6
The Alienation of Unification
Issue information


Summary:

Apparition and Andromeda escort three students to the new Legion Academy: Tomb, who can control bodily functions; Cannus, a canine tracker; and arrogant Brawler, who is tough and can mind-mesh with machinery. Andromeda and the three students hate each other, but are forced to work together when their ship is hijacked.

Thoughts:

The story by Beau Smith is generic and bland; it's nice enough but I never find myself getting excited.

Even fans of Apparition or Andromeda won't mind skipping this issue, as we learn almost nothing new about them. The action is generic and virtually no character development occurs. Even their personalities don't match what we've seen in the main series: Apparition plays a leader role but loses almost all of her sarcasm and "fire", while Andromeda's demonstrated aggression towards the three students could be chalked up to annoyance and irritation rather than her xenophobia.

None of the three students is particularly interesting. Brawler acts like your typical arrogant jock, and Cannus contributes nothing to the story besides punching some bad guys (there was really no reason to make him a tracker or a canine). Tomb is the most interesting; his power is very formidable. He's also silent and the only hints of personality we get are that he has some sense of humor (laughing at Brawler getting shot down by Andromeda) and apparently isn't afraid to kill (though nobody dies). We're not given a good reason for why Brawler and Tomb, despite their good powers, are not considered Legion material. Is Tomb's power too lethal or scary? But what about telepathic Saturn Girl or shapeshifting Chameleon? Is Brawler too arrogant? Then why is xenophobic Andromeda a Legionnaire? Perhaps the reason is politics, but it would have been nice to say so.

The story is generic: Andromeda, Brawler, Cannus and Tomb dislike each other. Apparition is the voice of reason, but has to leave to infiltrate the enemy ship. Andromeda and the students work together out of necessity, and not because of any deep realizations. They certainly don't end the story as friends - or even as a team, despite what Apparition says.

The art (Mike Huddleston - pencils, and Jim Mahfood - inker) is good; cocky Brawler and aggressive Andromeda in particular are drawn well. There's a lot of shading though, which gives it a very "bleak space" feel and the characters look much older than teenagers.

This story is fun enough, but is definitely for completists only.

Showcase '95 #6
Learning Curve


Summary:

Hard-headed, violent and rebellious Science Police Officer Sybelle Deacon has been placed under the supervision of Gigi Cusimano and Shvaughn Erin as a last resort - either she begins to fall in line or she will be discharged. Along with Leviathan, the four investigate a robbery. The day is saved thanks to a combination of Sybelle's unorthodox tactics, Leviathan's powers and teamwork from Shvaughn and Gigi.

Thoughts:

Here's another story that tries to teach a lesson, and the delivery is pretty rough. Sybelle Deacon is the one who notices that the dragon-creatures they're fighting are being controlled. She then defies orders and goes after the crooks without backup, but is saved only because Leviathan, Shvaughn and Gigi work together to track her and surround the enemy. It would have worked decently if not for the fact that Leviathan himself countermands Gigi's orders twice; Gigi and Leviathan wrangle over who has jurisdiction over the scene; and Shvaughn herself can barely stand working with Leviathan. (Which is a pretty big continuity error - Shvaughn expresses dislike not only towards Gim but to the whole Legion, when she is already Legion liaison; but LSH Annual 6 clearly shows her gaining respect for the Legion immediately after getting the assignment). Although they are certainly a lot less brutal than Sybelle, their behavior isn't all that far from Sybelle's contempt for authority. Yes, Gim, Gigi and Shvaughn do work together in the end but they give each other a rough time doing it. Gigi's supposed to be the voice of reason, but she's undermined because the writers have Leviathan go against her orders - and be right doing so!

The art is okay, but Leviathan is toothy and grimaces a lot. There are times when the transition between panels isn't clear, and the action can be hard to follow.

Again, an okay story but unless you're a big Gigi Cusimano fan I'd give it a pass.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008294 10/13/21 10:23 AM
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Generic stories, as IB wrote, above. Both delivered the same message: difficult people triumph with teamwork and fair play. The endings were both a bit too happy smiles for me; as with the Annual, I would have preferred some tension to remain between characters at the end. Andromeda is still a racist, a terrible thing as the most interesting character trait of the bunch.

We did get new worlds and new races added to the story. The three recruits were okay as new characters, but I don't think they were seen again. Tomb had the most unusual powers and appearance; Brawler's power was unique (and made me think of Gear) but he was essentially a big thug and Canus played the canine tropes. I'd like to have seen what the U.P. was getting out the recruits' respective worlds, just as we would see Chu gloat over Trom as her secret weapon in a later issue. Of course the tough guy, Brawler, was smitten with tough girl Andromeda - another fairly common idea in comics, although still mildly amusing for its familiarity.

Another recurring event is Tinya going in solo to infiltrate a ship or machinery; it makes sense that she'd do that in this situation, but it still felt old.

There's been a bit of focus on the Science Police in the last few issues; could DC have been considering something like a regular back-up story about the SPs or just trying to establish them as a regular part of the Legion's routine? Shvaughn is presented as the tough one ("nobody expects me to be nice"), which struck me as odd given her original history, but a welcome change to the character. Also, as IB pointed out, there was a lot of not-following-orders yet everything worked out in the end. Neither the Legion nor the SPs have been presented as the wild west, although a rather casual regard for procedure among the SPs might have been a good counterpoint to the earnest young Legionnaires.

The dragon creature was cute, once it was restored to normal. What can I say, I'm a sucker for pets and this one would have made a good animal companion for Leviathan - or guard dog for Legion HQ.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008295 10/13/21 12:29 PM
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Agree on the analysis of these stories - they were both vanilla that led nowhere. The concept of the Legion Academy is introduced but never really touched again, and the story is the textbook definition of bland.

The SP story was a little better, and it was nice to see more Shvaughn and Gigi. The hook for the mystery was a little more interesting but in the end the story didn't do anything for me.

And FC, not sure if you're asking generically or not, but there *was* a SP limited comic for some time in the late 90s that was pretty forgettable. I think I may have a few of them, but I couldn't tell you a thing that happens.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008296 10/13/21 12:50 PM
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The SP mini was 4 issues, involving a disgraced Science Police cop investigating the Ringers - 4 sponsored heroes who wear rings that give them the powers of deceased villains. They find out that the rings channel the villains? personalities too.

One ringer is Drianna Allon, Gim?s never before seen sister

And one of the rings would wind up with DNA?s Oversight Watch member Abyss

Pretty forgettable overall. Though the story did do a decent job of exploring Drianna?s feelings of being overshadowed by Gim, and the Sci Cop?s PTSD over being forced to make a decision that cost lives earlier in his career

Arguably, better character explorations than what went on in these two showcase stories

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008325 10/14/21 10:06 AM
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That SP mini series sure was pretty forgettable and no follow-up to fold any of it into the Legion book. I was wondering if the reboot team were considering expanding the SP involvement in the Legion stories as an on-going plot, tension between the two groups sort of thing. Do we even see Gigi again in this series?


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008333 10/14/21 11:21 AM
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I always forget the SP mini happened and keep missing it when I reread.

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008335 10/14/21 11:36 AM
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We don't ever see Gigi again. Ibby and I had a chat about this when doing my Vi story and I was completely shocked she had disappeared in the Reboot. In the main Legion of Super Heroes and Legionnaires she vanished after Gim Allon's funeral.

I don't even consider the SP series Canon, tbh.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008556 10/19/21 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Legionnaires 26
Issue Information
"Authority"


Summary:

Saturn Girl gets some unexpected help from a former mentor. Apparition meets up with Ultra Boy and accompanies Workforce on a mission in which they learn some (more) unsavory things about McCauley.

Review:

I want to be charitable towards this issue because it develops some of the ongoing subplots and has a few memorable twists and turns. However, one of the two major plot lines reads like an idiot plot?a plot which would end very quickly if the characters stopped acting like idiots.

The chief idiot this time is Aven, Saturn Girl?s former teacher on Titan. Having learned of his pupil?s catatonia, he travels to earth to cure her with his own formidable mental powers. Unfortunately, Aven doesn?t bother to announce what he?s doing. He simply performs some Jedi mind tricks to get others out of his way and reveals who he is only after Cosmic Boy interrupts his mental ministrations.

This kind of set-up creates a lot of false and unnecessary drama. If Aven had stopped acting like a jerk, much of the plot development could have been avoided?and the story would have been better for it. Imagine Aven reaching out to the Legionnaires first, and them inviting him to earth to help Saturn Girl. We could have gotten into the meat of the story much quicker. Complications could even have been introduced if Aven?s mental ?operation? turned out to be as unsuccessful as it is here?with Saturn Girl waking up but being able to repeat only one sentence (?Hello, Cosmic Boy.?).

One might suppose that Aven's behavior was influenced by the UP-wide distrust of telepaths, but this long-dormant plotline is not mentioned here. Instead, Aven behaves like a bad guy in order to build tension in the story. The tension, however, is artificial; as a reader, I felt I was being talked down to, which goes back to my earlier theory that the creators of the reboot were targeting very young children who might find such story telling techniques fresh.

The other main plot is more successful. Tinya, thoroughly smitten with Jo, is annoyed with him for being late, yet she instantly forgives him. Jo plays the typical dunderheaded teenaged boy who doesn?t realize the girl he likes might have preferred roses to a cactus (a cactus?). Perhaps on Rimbor a cactus is considered romantic. In any case, their date is interrupted by McCauley, who sends Jo on a mission and invites Tinya along so she can see how ?professionals? handle super-heroing. Tinya accepts, affording her a brief reunion with Garth and a chance to tease Jo over his casual relationship with Spider-Girl.

More importantly, the Workforce tackles a group of White Triangle racists who reveal that McCauley is their former business partner. It seems that McCauley doesn?t care who he sells arms to. Showing they have more integrity than he does, the thieves are willing to die to prevent McCauley's arms from getting into the hands of races they deem inferior. Only quick actions from Karate Kid, Jo, and Garth prevent ?the entire region? from being destroyed by a glowing globe of hazardous waste.

This sequence brilliantly shows the contrast between the Legion and Workforce. One team has dedicated itself to idealistic purposes; the other doesn?t care about McCauley?s double-dipping business practices as long as they get paid. Tinya loses her respect for the Workforce, including Jo. Garth, at least, has the sense to quit.

So, Legionnaires 26 is a mixed bag for me. Both plot lines are well intentioned and flesh out our understanding of the Legion?s universe. Only one, however, is delivered in an authentic and convincing manner.

Grade: 84.2 (B)


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008557 10/19/21 10:49 AM
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"I want to be charitable" sums up my reaction to this issue, although for somewhat different reasons than Ibby. The romances - Spark and her secret admirer, Jo and Tinya with Sussa glaring - may well have been authentic but just reminded me that these are young teens and it all seemed kind of silly to me: just a personal reaction, the same I get from squealing bridesmaid movies.

I did like the contrast between the Workforce and the Legion and how some of the Workforce members were starting to question McCauley's ethics - but only Garth was willing to walk away from the material benefits. You can take the boy out of the Legion, but you can't take the Legion out of the boy. It's ironic, and a well-done detail, that the White Triangle thieves have more personal integrity than McCauley, as IB points out.

Aven's behaviour was a mixed bag; I also think those scenes could have been written to present a much more convincing character. Aven is a high-ranking telepath and surely understands Imra's mind better than the doctors treating her. These factors support the arrogant attitude he displays and, whether he is just accustomed to getting his way or feels he's on an urgent mission to rescue Imra, explain why he simply shoves people aside and bypasses security. He's not a likeable character here, but he is an intriguing addition to the Legionverse mix.

However, it doesn't make sense, even for an arrogant mentor, that he would just barge in unannounced and not explain who he was. It should have been set up that Imra's medical team called him in as an expert, in which case he would have been welcomed and given uninterrupted access to treat Imra. He could still have acted snooty. Luornu and Rokk could still have upset things by bursting in uninvited. The tension could have been preserved.

The three lead-ins to future developments are promising. There's a page of Durlan speak at Cham's father's funeral, the highlight of which is "Reep Wob" and the indication that this is going to cause some problem back at Legion HQ. Kinetix has lost her powers, but Chu insists she remain on the team for some reason. Finally, Andromeda crashes through the roof, unconscious, all three scenes promising more action than poor Imra babbling in a hospital bed.

The title "Authority" covers the behaviour of Aven and McCauley, as well as the brief appearance of President Chu, none of whom generate much respect for handling the authority they possess. It makes the teen heroes look good by contrast.


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008558 10/19/21 11:55 AM
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I generally have similar reactions here - the Aven plot was just a waste. Why wasn't he treated as a VIP specially brought in by Brande? Half the issue was basically a waste.

And here we have the beginning of Tinya/Jo. I'm getting PTSD just reading the panels. Yikes.

It is interesting that we are here reading the intro of Aven and the blossoming of the Tinya/Jo relationship here just as we see the back end of both over on the DnA thread.

What I DID like about this issue was Spark. Her reacting to the jump-scares was well done by Jeff Moy and honestly are what make me remember the issue the most after all this time. The secret admirer angle was very interesting as there was a lot of speculation as to who it was for many months; due to the recently concluded Zero-Hour, many people speculated that Vi was the admirer, which wouldn't have been a bad angle to take except for it being DC in the mid-90s.

The other thing that jumped out at me when Cos and Zoe are trying to figure out what to do with her - Cos says, "Its not your fault." Well, it kinda is. Sorry, Zo. wink


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008578 10/20/21 03:55 AM
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haha it IS kinda Zoe's fault... if Vi had been crushed when Zoe acted all reckless, we would have had a very different convo

Tinya's complaints about JO before referenced that he's already "dating" Sussa, and Sussa also acts jealous her, so at least Jo is not totally let off the hook. but yes, this part is realistic - I did that when I was younger (the dating-multiple-people-without-really-committing-to-either), so I can understand where Jo is coming from. he's still immature, after all. And at least those involved are not letting him off scot-free

Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008579 10/20/21 03:59 AM
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But do either of them really mature? laugh


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008905 10/27/21 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Invisible Brainiac
Legion of Super-Heroes 70
Beyond Belief

Issue information

Summary:

Andromeda is suffering from deadly lead poisoning, and Brainiac 5 is the only one who can help her. Will Andromeda's xenophobia make it an impossible task?

Also, Violet discovers something chilling about Andromeda.

Thoughts:


My first impression for this issue was that Jason Armstrong's art is hideous. The characters' faces have no symmetry. One good thing I can say is that he does facial expressions well, as evidenced by the roll call page. But the interiors are a shame, especially in contrast to the gorgeous Alan Davis/Mark Farmer cover.

On to the story. The Andromeda/Brainiac 5 dynamic works very well; you have a xenophobe who believes her race is superior, and a highly intelligent man with a superiority complex of his own. "Someone of your intellect lacking faith in my prowess is akin to a dog lacking faith in its master." Ooh. Fighting words.

Andromeda herself is interesting: she whispers she's scared but won't admit it to Brainy; she apologizes to him in the end but only because he proved that he isn't truly inferior; she swears she's angry at the thugs for defying her but perhaps, just perhaps, she does care enough about Triad that she doesn't want her to die. And when Brainy shows his own contempt for Daxamites, of course she can't help but react - she was raised to believe they are the superior race, after all.

Andy won't be able to rest for long though. Andy's White Triangle connections are outed both to the Legion and to the readers. Her guilt is clear; she herself admits she knows the White Triangle faction is actively working to destroy the UP.

Violet, on a lesser scale, is also (at first glance) a creature of contradictions. She's bothered by Andromeda's thoughts towards her, but once she finds something that points to Andy's guilt she doesn't hesitate to share it (rather dramatically) with the rest of the team. I DO find the circumstances behind her finding Andy's necklace a bit too convenient (She acknowledges she doesn't know Andy well, but thinks Andy will appreciate her cleaning up her room. and she knows she shouldn't snoop, but she still moves things around...?) I think her actions do make sense though. She's obviously more loyal to the team than to Andromeda.

Let's talk about Daxam as well. Having the White Triangle be social outcasts, and not representative of the Daxamite government, is a good logical step which explains why Daxam is a UP member. It's comforting to know that the White Triangle members don't represent the majority of Daxamites.

Other plotlines:

Saturn Girl's case seems as hopeless as ever. At least Triad is back in action, and she seems none the worse for wear.

Kinetix is in high spirits, considering she's just lost her powers. She must be very confident she can regain them, and it fits in nicely with how she acted in her first few appearances. She's also keenly perspective when she's not distracted by thoughts of power.

Spark's secret admirer plotline is clumsily shoved into the scene. I know, it's there to set up Zoe's suggestion to Violet of giving Andromeda a gift, but she could just as easily have suggested it without Spark being there.

The Cosmic Boy-Winema Wazzo scene is another clumsy one. Frankly, Cos jumped the gun here. All Winema did was say she would monitor the situation. Without knowing exactly what it would entail, he antagonized her and dragged Apparition into it. Oh, Cos.

These other plotlines seem very inconsequential in the shadow of the main Andromeda/Brainiac 5 plot, though. Andromeda's near-death experience and her being saved by Brainiac 5 is a realistic way of making her confront her xenophobic beliefs. She doesn't totally discard them, which would be unbelievable; but she is forced to admit to herself that maybe not all races are completely inferior to her own. And yet, it may be too late - looks like the White Triangle plot is going to blow up pretty soon!


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Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008906 10/27/21 10:23 AM
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It's rough when the cover differs so much from the interior art, you just sigh a wistful might-have-been. However, there is something about the expressions captured that is satisfying, with just a few sketch lines on some of the simpler depictions (e.g. Vi watching Andromeda lift weights, P.10; the bottom panels of p.2 & 3). Puzzlement, suspicion and resentment are shown much more effectively than pain, anger or happiness.

We got Andromeda's history and a few steps forward in assorted sub-plots, but it was the motivations of the characters which drove this story for me.

Andromeda is the easiest character to understand, not just because she explains her upbringing and conditioning but because her motivations are clearest. She's in pain and desperate for a cure, but finds herself at the mercy of someone who she considers racially inferior, because every "other" is racially inferior. She has quick answers to justify her behaviour; not much analysis is demanded of her or the reader. Also, cracks appear in her prejudice by the end of the issue, and it's always nice to see the promise of character growth.

Brainiac 5's motivations, on the other hand, are more muddled to me. Is he trying to cure her racism as well as her lead poisoning? We know he has an ego, and Coluans have a legitimate claim to be brainier than other races; is he truly arrogant or pretending to be so? He mentions that he wishes Lyle were there to help, since Lyle is the biochemist - so he apparently doesn't see himself as the only intellect in the Legion. We also know from previous issues that he was quite smitten with Andromeda, but there's no evidence of that here - it's a strictly business relationship. At this point, it has all the makings of a screwball romantic comedy - although I think the idea was better handled by Mark Waid in the 3boot with Brainy and Dream Girl.

Violet's motivations are also puzzling. She professes to want to do something nice for poor Andromeda, - and does get her a gift of violets - but it looks like a set-up from the start for an excuse to snoop around Andromeda's quarters. Watch out for the quiet ones, our Violet has shown herself to be a little more canny than she appears.

Winema also finds an excuse to stick her nose into Tinya's business. Tinya seems to be unusually upset; Rokk blew that meeting by including Tinya, possibly also making an enemy of Winema by going to the heart of the matter and accusing her of taking a heavy hand in the mother-daughter relationship. The clumsiness, as Ibby put it, is surprising.

Imra's on hold; she's made some minimal progress but there's no explanation of what happened with Aven. Just a plot-holder, along with the brief reference to Spark's secret admirer and Zoe's farewell.


Holy Cats of Egypt!
Re: Re-Reading the Legion: Archive 35
Fat Cramer #1008917 10/27/21 02:37 PM
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Unseen, not unheard
Joined: Oct 2003
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why did Brainy do what he did? odd isn't it?

Andromeda oddly comes across as the most sympathetic here, being very much torn by everything.

Vi - I agree, why is she so worried about Andromeda? Is she upset at herself for upsetting Andy earlier (confronting her about letting the thugs in L* 23 go?)

Yeah, Rokk really blew it - included Tinya (why was she there???) and calling Winema out in public. sigh. Cos is usually cannier than that.

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