Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The 2nd All Avengers Thread

Picking up where the first thread left off, Lardy and I were discussing one of the worst storylines in Avengers history, the one dealing with Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) becoming impregnated, and ending in issue #200 with Ms. Marvel basically giving birth to her own rapist and going off with him to another dimension, while the rest of the Avengers act like complete idiots and do nothing to address the gravity of the situation nor to stop this atrocity from occurring.

Understandably, Marvel has been reluctant to reprint this storyline. Previously, it had only been reprinted in black & white, in the long-out-of-print Essential Avengers Volume 9. Now it's been reprinted in color -- in a Marvel Masterworks volume, to add insult to injury!

They even had the story's nominal writer, David Michelinie (who came and went during 1979-1980 as if his monthly Avengers gig was an afterthought) do an introduction for the volume! I haven't read it, but Lardy has. In it, Michelinie claims that his original (and equally offensive) plot, where Ms. Marvel would be impregnated by a semi-organic computer, had been previously done in an issue of What If involving the Avengers, which was why issue #200 was rewritten (by committee) and redrawn (by supposed "feminist" George Perez) at the last minute.

It is worth noting that Carol Danvers, now without her super-powers nor even her emotional connection to her memories, did call the Avengers on their callous, addle-brained wrongdoing, in 1981's Avengers Annual 10, by Chris Claremont & Michael Golden. Now, there was no reason to diminish Carol even further except as a cynical showcase for Claremont's then-new creation, Rogue of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (all of whom the Avengers battle in this Annual.) For all my suspicions of mixed intentions on Claremont's part, I think Annual 10 did at least bring a degree of closure to one of the most shameful chapters in the Avengers (and Marvel Comics's) history.

Almost 20 years later, the Marvel Universe's supposed "Back to Basics Savior," one Kurt Busiek, retrieved the disgusting tale from Avengers #200 from under the carpet. Busiek had already contrived to make Carol an alcoholic (an Air Force pilot who can't hold their alcohol? Whatever, Kurt!) and would go on to have her kill a super-villain in what appeared (to me, at least) to be a fit of berserker hysteria. In the interim, Busiek spent several issues retelling the vile events of Avengers #200, to no discernible point.

With Carol now bearing the mantle of Captain Marvel, and being showcased in both the current (terrible) Avengers series and her own (uneven but sometimes engaging) solo series, this couldn't be a worse time to dredge up Avengers #200 yet again.

Well, obviously, I bought Masterworks 20 (and 21, which also contains another of the ost controversial moments in Avengers history). My goal for a long while has been to obtain all of the original Avengers run in hardcover form for the high-quality printing and the easy accessibility of the stories. To this end, I've got the first three Omnibus editions and multiple Masterworks. In between, there are a few TPBs and some less impressive HCs that I want to replace with eventual Omnibus releases.

I obviously knew 200 was in Vol. 20 and still got it. I wasn't sure for a while if I would actually do so because of 200. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that omitting the story is to pretend it never existed. People need to know it existed and have the opportunity to read it for themselves, so they will know exactly what Marvel let get published back in the day. People need to know this existed and continue to hold the creators accountable.

I haven't read this story since I was a kid. I was barely into my teens and had no idea of the implications. I didn't know better. I thought it was "cool". In the next couple of days, I will read it again. I think I need to. Not because I expect to enjoy it or think better of it but because I need to bear witness as an adult and show the child within me what these people felt was fine to publish and what harm it actually did. I expect I'll never read it again.

I think the introduction--or, better yet, an entirely separate essay should have been included to give the issue its proper perspective and comeuppance, rather than to excuse it.

So that's where I fall on Masterworks 20 and its inclusion of 200. The others, I have to think more about.

Agreed wholeheartedly with both points. I usually think of myself as being against censorship, but sometimes there will be a work of so-called entertainment that turns out to be a personal trigger for me. I appreciate you providing a more objective perspective, Lardy, because, yes, to try to pretend these horrid artifacts never existed is to risk perpetuating the attitudes which lead to such awful work being produced.

As for a separate essay, I'd nominate this one, by the awesome Carol Strickland. She was the very first person within fandom to speak out against 200:

http://carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/index.html

http://carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/msmarvel2.html


Looking forward to seeing what other conclusions you arrive at.

I do think Chris had great intentions with Avengers Annual 10. I don't think he entirely failed either. As you mention, Carol letting the other Avengers have it was a great well-deserved moment. In a meta-sense, it was aimed just as much at those who produced 200.

Chris wrote Carol's adventures in her own comic for a significant run. I do believe he loved the character and used his considerable pull to write a "rebuttal" story fairly soon after the published issue. I don't think any story that did what the Annual did would have ever been published without his anger and the name he's made.

The problem is with what he chose to do to her through Rogue. I honestly have nothing to back this up at all, but I feel his intent was to cleanse Carol and give her a new starting point to leave this story behind her. She appeared in the X-Men book for a while and gained an all-new identity and power-set. She could have went on to bigger things but instead just kind of disappeared for a while.

I do feel Chris has done more for the modern female superhero than most male writers. I give him cerdit for that and the fact that he wouldn't let Avengers 200 be the final word on Carol Danvers.


I think this was Kurt's clumsy attempt to acknowledge Carol's history and try to move her forward, especially as she'd mostly been in comics limbo for several years. So the intentions were good, but we know what is paved with good intentions.....


One thing Busiek did do that was good for her in the long term is bring her out of comics limbo. Since then, she has ascended through the Marvel ranks and is now their premier superheroine. And she's the first female to get a solo headliner in the extremely popular MCU. And she's clearly the MCU's most powerful hero. AND she's CAPTAIN Marvel and the only one to bear that title in the MCU!

Does that make what was done to her all right? Hell, no! But she's here, she's a brighter star than ever and she's not going anywhere!

I'd say, it's a start.

I will read these right after I read 200!

I read all these in the orignal comics, so, no need for me to ever buy any reprints.

AVENGERS was a book that went thru a lot of major ups and downs during my time reading it as it came out. I loved Steve Englehart's run, despite some 3rd or 5th-rate art, and it was a genuine charge to see newcomer George Perez get better as he went month-to-month (I particularly recall the issue where I said when I saw it, "Hey-- no DRAWING MISTAKES this month!") I was DEEPLY annoyed when Englehart left abruptly (in some ways, I can never forgive Gerry Conway for that-- yes, it was Conway's fault). Jim Shooter was better than Conway, but always seemed to me to be a "consolation prize".

When Shooter & Perez started their big "epic" story (something akin to "Crisis On Infinite Earths" quite a few years early), it was fun, but then Perez' bad habit of taking on too many projects and blowing deadlines on ALL of them got in the way, and that story fizzled at the end. It was CHAOS after that. Fill-ins, David Michelinie, John Byrne, Dan Green doing some of the worst inks in Marvel history (REALLY!), Perez coming back here and there... and then you had THAT story with Carol.

There is, I believe, an ENTIRE thread at the "Classic Comics Forum" message board discussing this atrocity. (It's one of the few general comics boards I haven't been BOOTED off of yet... but I have "BLOCKED" 3 members for their non-stop B.S. and bad attitude.)

There were, if memory serves, several instances over the years at Marvel where one writer would do something AWFUL, and another writer would then come in to do "pushback". Sometimes, a 3rd writer would then do "pushback" on the "pushback". I think if these clowns would focus on telling GOOD STORIES instead of the SOAP-OPERA angle of these books, a lot fewer long-running characters would have had their lives, careers and histories TOTALLY SCREWED OVER.

As an aside, my best friend in Georgia more than once has said he always "liked" Rogue because she was one of the very few characters in comics who was from "the south". I NEVER liked her. In fact, I HATED every fibre of her existence... because of what she did to Carol. By extension, CHRIS CLAREMONT did that to Carol, a character he allegedly "loved". B***S***. It's near the equivalent of what Alan Moore did to Barbara Gordon. WHAT IS WRONG with these people? I feel a big part of it is... THEY didn't create these characters, and THEY don't OWN these characters. So they're fine basically saying "F*** YOU!" to the characters... and, their readers.



As for Kurt Busiek... I'm sure this was discussed at excrutiating length in the other AVENGERS thread... but most of his "Heroes Return" work was 2ND-RATE RETREADS on long-past already-resolved storylines that nobody had any business 're-visiting." Maybe he really didn't have any new ideas.

Meanwhile, on Facebook... Kurt Busiek was the 3rd comics professional I was ever FORCED to BLOCK. It started in a Jack Kirby Yahoo Group, where one day he started being RUDE and INSULTING and argumentative and contradicting every single thing I would say on any given topic. I had to leave that group, JUST to get away from the guy. A few years later, he turned up in a Jack Kirby Facebook group... and as soon as he saw me, PICKED UP where he left off. I hit the "BLOCK" button and haven't had to deal with his nonsense since.

On the plus side, I won an eBay auction for Collection Obsession in floppies!

YAY! Congratulations, Lardy! One step closer to having the whole Epting/Harras era!

Okay...brace yourselves...I put in an Inter-Library request for..."Avengers: The Crossing Omnibus!"

Just saw this in a Google search...

"Often denounced as the worst Avengers storyline in history (and it's hard to argue)"





Had to look around to see that Bob Harras was the writer. Well that figures.

I've HATED his work in general since suffering thru "NICK FURY VS. SHIELD" and its sequel...

Tread carefully, prof. Harras has his fans here, and some discussion of his run is about to commence. Criticism is fine; bashing is not. If discussions are about to happen, "hate" interjections should not be shared.

Yeah, well, I read the long, long discussion here a couple years ago about Bob Harras' long AVENGERS run and didn't have much to say, as I dropped off the book about 6 months into his time on the book.

His work on NICK FURY was an insult to the series.

"The Collection Obsession" (Avengers Vol. 1 334-339)

So as a warm-up to reading the Gathering Omnibus sometime this coming summer, I purchased the above single issues (which are not included in the Omnibus) off an eBay lot and read them over this past weekend.

I'm pretty sure I never read this when it originally came out. I feel I dropped the book near the end of Larry Hama's run. Possibly, anticipating a bi-weekly extra money commitment, I might have chose that as a logical jumping-off point for a book I hadn't really enjoyed since Roger Stern left. I was stubborn back then and fiercely loyal to the books I was reading...until I'd had enough. Longtime buys like Spidey, X-Men, Alpha Flight, FF would soon or had already have been dropped, as well. At he time, Vertigo was around its peak and demanding more of my money, and the DCU itself had earned my interest more for overall higher quality.

So I just missed this story arc. Would it have swayed me to keep on avenging? Difficult to say, but Bob Harras certainly looked to start off his run with a story that showed he wasn't afraid to hit the ground running.

The basic plot of the arc is that a mysterious and powerful group called the Brethren have escaped from the Collector's ship and are threatening the Earth and potentially the galaxy with their destructive ways. Over the course of the arc, we learn that both the Brethren and the Collector have secrets that unfurl.

Like I alluded to above, Harras was pretty fearless, going for a fairly sprawling cosmic caper that guest-stars the Inhumans and the Watcher, introduces (and also apparently retires) a new threat with ties to the Celestials and the Eternals, features maybe a couple dozen Avengers and reservists and debuts Crystal as the newest Avenger, This is all just off the top of my head. Most Avengers writers get their feet wet with smaller stories, but not this guy. And I would say, overall, he's pretty successful here, though not without some hiccups and evidence of a learning curve.

We'll start with the flaws. Foremost, the characterization of our heroes is sparse and choppy. Few of them really shine in this arc. Sersi has the biggest role. At times, she's the damsel in distress and the attraction that occurs between her and the Brethren's Thane Ector feels forced. To Harras's credit, it's never a full-blown love affair, but there's a mixture of melodrama and genuine moments that seem awkward. I think in the balance it works overall, The Sersi I think of is strong and wouldn't be kissing her captor, but as a deeper connection between their 2 races is revealed, it works a little better.

Otherwise, the Avengers are pretty flat. Harras has some fun with Hank McCoy, but he just hits the expected notes with him. Cap is his heroic, self-sacrificing self, but he comes across just this side of stupid at times. Crystal gets a few shining moments to prove herself and examine her motives for being an Avenger that are appreciated. Vision's recent status quo change with his Byrne "deconstruction" is highlighted and offers some apparent promise of things to come for him, hinting he's maybe not so unfeeling after all in the wake of what happened to him. Otherwise, not much to see, other than them using their powers and skills, at least.

Honestly, I assume it's the ones on the cover box (minus Thor?), but I'm not entirely sure which Avengers are supposed to be the current full-timers among them.

Another issue is the level of the threat was described but not really apparent in most of the story. I mean, we are shown the destruction the Brethren caused on the other miniaturized habitats in the Collector's ship, but other than their re-decorating of the World Trade Center (always a strange thing to see in back issues) and skirmishes with various Avengers, they don't seem to be doing much to advance their agenda. This, I suppose, is because of Ector's infatuation with Sersi causing a quick turn in his character and a scaling back of their efforts, but given all the reserves being called in, there's not a lot to justify it, other than: "OMG! They beat down Cap!"

The three main Brethren are interesting, if somewhat stereotypical. They are the leader/warlord, his jealous betrothed and his Fool. There is a Shakespearean quality to them that is both appreciated and groanworthy at the same time. It ends up working pretty well, though the betrothed, Sybyl Dorn, gets the shortest shrift of the three. She is, at least, a warrior and not some crying attendant.

So the success of the story lies on the delivery of two things: 1) How much you accept the Sersi/Thane Ector emotional core discussed above, and 2) whether the Brethren and Collector "twists" deliver. The Collector's twist is nothing more than a heel turn. Given the title of the story, it wasn't all that surprising, but at least it was accompanied by a visual of his "true" form that was disarming. The Brethren twist is the core of the story. At first blanch, it's pretty disgusting. (There's this scene in the sewer.... ) But the secret, the shame it brings and the history behind it, make it work. Overall, both mostly work for me, so I feel the story is a success.

The other factor is, of course, the art. Adam Kubert draws the first part, and Steve Epting finishes the arc. I think the main thing Kubert does is he saddles Epting with some not-great designs on the Brethren characters. The costumes don't speak to me, and Ector particularly is left with a thong-like design element on his trunks that looks really dumb. Overall, Epting does a nice job, though. The art has obvious Jim Lee-inspired design elements but has its own flair. My biggest issue is with the fights and the poorly implied damage infliction. When Cap gets beat down, it's implied he is severely injured (even making it a cliffhanger ending), but we don't see blows landing or much of anything, other than reactions from other Avengers. I don't expect or desire hyper-violence, but here and in other scenes, Epting is a little too ambiguous, His storytelling is overall good, but he obviously has some learning to do.

So, overall, I feel this is a good, gutsy start to the Harras/Epting era. It's far from perfect but shows promise and potential. It's an entertaining yarn with both a classic feel and a look toward exploring new territory that makes me look forward to the sprawling Gathering saga.

Agreed. He was certainly ambitious. As I noted towards the end of the previous All Avengers thread, this seems to me, in some ways at least, more like a Satellite Era JLA story than an Avengers story, especially circa the Gerry Conway/George Perez issues (which includes my beloved JLA #200; also, the JLA editor at that time was Len Wein, whom I consider the unsung hero of DC's Pre-Crisis/Early 80s creative rallying.)


I thought she was playing the damsel in a strategic way, to some extent at least. But yeah, I can see where it might not come across, as her portrayal is a bit muddled.


What about Herc?


That's partly Hama's fault, because he created an A-Team and a B-Team, but constantly reshuffled the rosters.


Fair enough, but I love the Fool. Epting draws him to look like something out of Nexus (Rude the Dude is one of Epting's heroes.)



Disarming indeed. And did it remind you at all of Mumm-Ra, the Thundercats' arch-nemesis?


Ha ha ha ha. Somehow, it didn't trouble me at all. But then, given my peculiar sense of humor...


Agreed.


Actually, it's Andy Kubert, not Adam, but that's an easy mistake to make (and not just because their names are almost identical -- their styles were very similar circa 1991.)

The criticisms of Epting's staging of the action sequences is valid and well taken. Definitely a learning curve during his Avengers run.


And again, agreed. Glad you liked it. To backpedal a moment to the JLA comparison, I wish THIS was the kind of story Harras had written when he had a shot at the JLA, but then everything at DC was all about the countdown to Infinte Crisis at that point.

Satellite Era JLA is a good comparison! Having read the O'Neil/Wein/Maggin/Bates/Englehart stuff from the '70s, this seems like the kinds of stories they would tell in 2-parters or especially the 2-parters told in the larger page-count period. An alien invasion, a little melodrama and a twist or two thrown in describes a lot of those stories!


I can see that, but it's the impression I got. Being it was Harras' first go, it's hard to say.


Herc was mostly played off Rage, from what I recall. There was some of that trademark Herc bravura, but he mostly seemed like he was mentoring Rage in the story. What do you remember that made you think Herc stood out here?


The Fool was entertaining...and tragic. I didn't mean to give him short shrift. I thought, though, that he was muddied a bit in his portrayal between being fiercely loyal to Ector but also trying to clumsily (and unsuccessfully) gain Sybyl's affections behind Ector's back. It could be explained away by his admission of insanity, but noth he and Sybyl could have used more development.


Now that you mention it--yes! I wonder if the Collector was ever shown like that again?


It didn't....trouble...me so much, but it's rare that you see a character basically eat poop in an ostensibly all-ages book!


My bad about which Kubert brother it was! It would have been interesting to see how Steve would have designed the Brethren if he'd drawn the whole thing.


Hadn't recalled that Harras ever actually wrote JLA. I doubt I had any interest in the title at the time. Whom did Harras follow as writer? And who came after him?

RE: Hercules, my first Epting/Harras issue was actually 356, halfway through the run, and as I accumulated back issues of the installments that I missed, I just remember thinking that Harras had Herc's "voice" down pat from the get-go, and that Herc was no longer just the comedy-relief clown he had become during the DeFalco/Frenz Thor run. I could be wrong.

RE: Collector rocking the Mumm-Ra look, we did see it again, but unfortunately, it was in Ron Marz's Silver Surfer.

RE: Mid-2000s JLA, this was a particularly bad time for that book. The last writer with a substantial run had been Joe Kelly (who I think had his good moments,) and from then on it was a revolving door: Chuck Austen, Denny O'Neil, Chris Claremont with John Byrne, and Kurt Busiek each did one arc. I've read somewhere that Busiek almost accepted a full-time JLA gig, but his health problems had left him with too little energy to do a corporate team book. Next was Harras, who started out with an interesting take on The Key, but it all ended with Green Arrow and Batman having a punch-up while a green imp laughed at them -- sad, just sad. Then came the big Brad Meltzer JLoA relaunch, which lasted a whopping 12 issues and, IMO, wasn't anything special anyhow.

So I recently re-read Avengers 251-254, the interim issues between Al Milgrom's departure and John Buscema's return. These are also the issues where Roger Stern has the Vision nearly conquer the world in a fit of ISAAC-influenced megalomania.

They hold up fairly well, but I'd say they pretty much encapsulate the best and the worst of Marvel's Jim Shooter As EIC Era.

There is plenty of good characterization here, and the issues are accessible without having read anything that comes before or after this arc.

What is lacking is a good sense of pacing, and artwork that's better than functional. There are mildly entertaining tangents with Paladin and Doc Samson, but all they do is drain some of the momentum off the A-Plot. As for the art, Bob Hall had really impressed me on the West Coast Avengers mini-series (which is the very next thing I plan to re-read,) although my conviction is now redoubled that Brett Breeding's inks carried Bob Hall's WCA pencils a great deal of the way. Issues 251 and 252 are inked by the late, great Joe Sinnott, but by Sinnott's own admission, he spent a large part of the 1980s "phoning it in" (his exact words were, "I just plod along, knocking out those inks.") Issue 253 is inked by the Akin & Garvey team, who could sometimes be good (their inks, along with MD Bright's arrival on pencils, greatly improved the look of Iron Man circa 200,) but they look rushed here. Where the art really bottoms out is the climactic issue 254, credited to Joe Del Beato (who, IIRC, usually worked on Marvel's humor books) and Josef Rubinstein (of whose excellent style there is little to be seen here -- my guess would be that he only did a few touchups to make Del Beato's work slightly less awful.) The climax also suffers from being, basically, an intervention-of-sorts for the Vision ("This month, in a Very Special Issue of Avengers, we psychoanalyze a would-be tyrant.") It's not very exciting, it doesn't play to Hall's pencilling strengths, and the inks are the final nail in the coffin.

Thankfully, with the 20-20 hindsight of knowing how much good stuff is coming ahead, this storyline feels merely like the end of Roger Stern's learning curve as Avengers writer. There is cold comfort to be had.

So this list of the supposed "Best Avengers stories of all time" is complete garbage, first and foremost because it doesn't include ANY of Steve Englehart's definitive work on the series! GARBAGE!!!

I agree for the most part, Lardy, although at least they topped the list with a good one, Roger Stern & John Buscema's "Under Siege." And the 2-parter that introduced the Vision at least was innovative for its time and has exquisite artwork (again, John Buscema.)

Now that the niceties are out of the way...

Busiek's white elephant of a Kang story at TWO? Even a lot of Busiek fans don't like it!

And a Geoff Johns story? That's so wrong on so many levels!

Also: My personal bete noire, the Korvac Saga, and the beautifully-drawn-but-lacking-a-third-act Kree-Skrull War.

I've already forgotten what the other four are.

Okay, maybe "complete" garbage was a poor choice of words because "Under Siege" and some of the others deserve to be there, but any list without the Celestial Madonna, Serpent Crown or Avengers/Defenders War (maybe you can argue against the last one because it's also a Defenders story) is hard to take seriously.

Oh, I don't take it seriously at all. Quite honestly, I've always found myself at odds with the Avengers fandom consensus. There are, unfortunately, a significant amount of fans who ignorantly dismiss Engelhart's Avengers stories as pothead nonsense. This list was obviously tailored to appeal to that segment of fandom.

My own, fairly spontaneous, list of my 10 favorite Avengers stories (emphasis on my favorites, not necessarily other peoples' favorites) --

1. "Under Siege," Avengers v.1 #270-277, by Roger Stern/John Buscema/Tom Palmer, in which Baron Zemo and Moonstone do a sort of Megatron/Starscream thing as the first and second in command of a literal army of Masters of Evil. Because when all is said and done, there is probably no storyline more satisfying in both script AND art, comics being as they are an equally literary and visual medium, something I'll come back to further down the list.

2. "Assault on Olympus," Avengers v.1 #281-285, by Stern/J. Buscema/Palmer, in which the team faces off against the Olympian Gods after Zeus is driven mad by the unfortunate state of Hercules and wrongly blames the Avengers. Even more gorgeous to look at than "Under Siege" (John Buscema preferred doing these kind of archaic mythic settings,) but the plot is not as airtight as "Under Siege."

3. "The Serpent Crown," Avengers v.1 #141-144, 147-149, by Steve Engelhart/George Perez/various inkers, in which half the team battles the Squadron Supreme on Earth-S while the other half battles Kang in, of all places, the Old West. I'm placing this one over "The Celestial Madonna Saga" because its meta-fictional humor is so far ahead of its time and because the artwork is more consistent here.

4. "The Celestial Madonna Saga," Avengers #124-135, Giant Size Avengers #2-4, by Steve Engelhart and various artists (most notably Dave Cockrum on GSA #2 and #3,) in which the seeming interlopers Mantis and Swordsman actually turn out to be not only true heroes but, in Mantis's case, a Cosmic Holy Mother. A true epic, with Engelhart taking Roy Thomas's love of continuity and putting his own, arguably superior, spin on it; if only the artwork wasn't such a mixed bag.

5. "The Gatherers Saga," Avengers #343-344, 348-375, by Steve Epting/Bob Harras/Tom Palmer/various guest artists, in which the Avengers are finally brought back to the cutting edge of superhero stories; another true epic, it tries to outdo The Celestial Madonna Saga but comes up just a little short. I put Epting ahead of Harras because I think that, by drawing all the key issues of this storyline, he went above and beyond his artistic remit and made the story better than it would have been without him.

6. "Once An Avenger"/"From the Ashes of Defeat," Avengers v.1 #23-24, by Stan Lee/Don Heck/John Romita Sr/Dick Ayers, in which the Avengers confront Kang on his own distant-future turf. My favorite Silver Age Avengers story, and arguably the first one with the proper scope and spectacle that would define the series.

7. "Operation Galactic Storm," Avengers #345-347, Avengers West Coast #80-82, Captain America #398-400, Iron Man #278-279, Thor #445-446, Quasar #32-34, Wonder Man #7-9, in which the Avengers intervene in an escalating war between the Shi'ar and the Kree. I'm placing this one over "The Kree-Skrull War," "The Final Threat," and "The Nebula Saga," because I think it's the only Avengers space opera with a proper beginning, middle, and end. In fact, I still consider the ending to be a very ballsy and challenging one, and it more than compensates for the storyline's excessive length and occasional lulls.

8. "The Avengers/Defenders War," Avengers #113-115, Defenders #8-10, by Steve Engelhart/Bob Brown/Sal Buscema/various inkers, in which villains manipulate the two hero teams to fight each other. Arguably, the very first event storyline ever, and still one of the best. I am only putting it way down here because I just don't think any of the artwork had quite enough polish nor enough oomph to do the storyline justice.

9. "The Collection Obsession," Avengers #334-339, by Steve Epting/Bob Harras/Tom Palmer/Andy Kubert, in which a savage band of alien invaders turn out to have connections to both the Celestials and the Elders. Yes, it's plenty rough around the edges, but I don't think it can be faulted for sheer ambition and scope, something we arguably hadn't seen in the Avengers since "Assault on Olympus."

10. "Mine Is the Power/To Tame a Titan," Avengers v.1 #49-50, by John Buscema/Roy Thomas, in which a seriously truncated roster fights a losing battle against Magneto before the subplot becomes the main plot, and Hercules battles Typhon the Titan, with the fate of the gods themselves at stake. The Roy Thomas era does have a lot of faults, which keeps several other sentimental favorites off this list, but this one makes the cut thanks almost entirely to John Buscema finally coming into his own as Avengers artist, after a steep learning curve, and doing his own inks to boot. As I alluded to earlier, comics are both a literary and a visual medium, and sometimes the artwork does manage to carry the story a lot farther than it might otherwise deserve.

Excellent, well-though-out list! Plus, it has LOTS of Englehart, who is, for me, the definitive Avengers writer.

I'm going to make an unranked list, which will instead be listed chronologically. Part of this is because, unlike Fickles, I haven't read all of the classic Avengers era yet. (To me, "classic Avengers era" means everything prior to Bendis coming aboard and changing the basic stroytelling and line-up formula forever--for better or worse.) I'm most lacking in the Harras/Epting era, but some of that has and will be rectified.

So, I present....

Lardy's Ten Best of the Classic Avengers Era (1963-2004) (honestly, though, I only lists stories thru '87)

"Once An Avenger"/"From the Ashes of Defeat," Avengers #23-24: This one knocked my socks off when I read the first Avengers Omnibus! I thought the Cap's Kooky Quartet era was a great shot in the arm for a mostly dull series to that point, and this is the apex. A stunningly beautiful, exciting and emotional story that I think still stands as the best Kang story ever. (Take that "Kang Dynasty"! ) I surprisingly loved Don Heck's art during this era, with or without Romita, Sr., but the combo here is undeniably transcendent.

"Kree/Skrull War" Avengers #89-97: I understand Fick's criticism of the ending, but the ambitiousness of the concept and the events therein are so classic. I don't think Englehart could have swung as big as he would later if Thomas hadn't done this first. The Neal Adams issues are, imo, the finest work he's ever done. One of, if not the, first multi-issue epics in comics and still one of the most fondly remembered.

"The Avengers/Defenders War," Avengers #113-115, Defenders #8-10: Speaking of firsts, how about this epic crossover written by Steve Englehart that helped set the standard. Set up like something out of the classic JLA playbook, we get a series of compelling hero vs. hero match-ups manipulated by Loki and Dormammu. I personally liked the issues drawn by Bob Brown and overall feel the art is nice throughout, but it's not like the best of Avengers art by the likes of Perez, Buscema, Adams, et al.

"The Celestial Madonna Saga," Avengers #124-135, Giant Size Avengers #2-4: So, yeah, this is an unranked list, but, make no mistake, this would be my undisputed #1. This is the apex, the core of Englehart's run. Plot threads he'd been weaving since almost the beginning come together and conclude here. And not just the Mantis stuff but the Vision and Scarlet Witch romance. Roy Thomas gave Steve something to play with Vizh and Wanda, but Steve freaking ran with it and built it to coalesce with Mantis and Swordsman's story. Kang plays another memorable role here, but it is the characters, their triumph and tragedy that carry this one. Yes, the art is inconsistent, but this still doesn't hurt the overall effect in my mind. It's basically the Avengers' Dark Phoenix Saga for me, in terms of that one story that embodies the characters and their potential like no other. It's the story that defines the Avengers classic era, imo.

"The Serpent Crown," Avengers #141-144, 147-149: If Celestial Madonna was the apex, this one was the flourish at the end of Englehart's run. Toward the end of his run, Steve finally got a (fairly) consistent penciller, and one of the all-time best at that with George Perez. As much fun as the "A" story is with the Squadron Supreme, it's the "B" story in the old west (which ends first) that feels most classic and fun here. And, hey, more Kang! Englehart left us wanting more, the way it should be. (And he would have a fairly welcome return! See below....)


"By My Friends Betrayed," Avengers Annual #10: Chris Claremont gets his chance to do a rebuttal of the deplorable Avengers #200, and it's a tragic, dynamic story that is important for many reasons. Fick mentions the "meta" aspect in one of her capsule reviews above and this feels like one of the most meta comics in history as Carol Danvers lets the Avengers have it in the story's conclusion. You can argue that Claremont goes too far here, but there's no doubt that this story has a huge consequences for Carol and the X-Men for many years to come. Featuring great pencils from Michael Golden.

The Trial of Hank Pym, Avengers 226-230: Roger Stern comes aboard for his legendary run and brings Monica Rambeau with him. Roger does remarkable damage control left by the previous 2 years of disastrous writer-by-committee blunders here at the outset. His first order of business here is cleaning up the whole Hank Pym mess in an artful fashion that harkens back to Pym's early days as Ant-Man. Maybe there is indeed some ret-conning done here, but Stern lands on his feet and points the Avengers toward the future by burying the ugliness,

"The Legacy of Thanos," Avengers #255-261 and Annual #14, and Fantastic Four #19: Buscema and Palmer come aboard and instantly bring new artistic energy to Stern who had been hampered by dull artists like Al Milgrom and Bob Hall. Even better, the team attempt to continue Thanos's titular legacy without bringing him back! Instead, they introduce his apparent daughter Nebula and make her a huge threat in her own right. It's exciting and a little dark, but most importantly, it looks to the past while moving undeniably forward. It's a splendid way for this creative team to kick off and has seemed unfairly overlooked, Well, the wildly successful MCU didn't overlook it, even if they had a different perspective on Nebula.

"Under Siege," Avengers v.1 #270-277: The apex of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run. At its core is a simple idea--super-villains team up to overrun a superhero headquarters. But it's done here like never before and with consequences and heavy drama. This ends up being the origin story for the Thunderbolts years later. Without this story, Thunderbolts doesn't happen, simply put. But that legacy aside, this is simply the great Avengers epic that the Korvac Saga wishes it could be but definitely wasn't.

"Lost in Space-Time," West Coast Avengers #17-24: Englehart returned to the Avengers many years later, albeit on the curious West Coast spin-off. The apex of his return this go-round is this time-travelling epic that is at its core, just plain fun (with one exception). Steve basically revisits the fun he had in Serpent Crown's "B" story and touches base with a lot of Marvel history. The thing about this one that gets talked about to this day, though, is Mockingbird's subplot with the Phantom Rider, how he takes advantage of her and how she gets her revenge. It's controversial and ultimately breaks up Hawkeye and Mockingbird, Should Steve have gone there? I still don't know, but it's powerful and thought-provoking to this day. At the very least, it doesn't take lightly when something like Avengers 200 asked us to just accept something similar. But let us not also forget the stunning work that was done with Hank Pym here as he contemplates suicide. Englehart's use of Firebird/Espirita as his counselor and allowing her to use religion in helping Hank was itself very unusual. Of course, Englehart's WCA is saddled with Al Milgrom as series artist, but this arc contains what passes for his best work, for what that's worth.

Thank you, Lardy. And I say the same about your list.


Agreed 100 percent!


LOL


Good point well taken.


Very good insight in that classic JLA comparison! I'd go so far as to say that I wish Engelhart's own JLA stories had been more like this -- even the really good ones like the origin of the Guardians one.


Fair enough on the art. And I like the comparison with "Dark Phoenix Saga."


I prefer the "A" story, but I see your point on the classic and fun feel of the "B" story.


ROTFLMAO Good save.


Well put. And thanks for mentioning Golden's amazing art, which often gets overlooked with most people tending to focus on Claremont's script.


Much as I love Stern in general, I still can't quite warm to the first half of his run. Most of his stories, including this one, are solid, but the art...just a real lack of chemistry there. The WCA mini-series being the exception, although as I said earlier in this thread, Brett Breeding's inks made a world of difference, IMO.


I'm glad you mentioned the Annuals. I take back what I said about it not having a proper ending, but I still think the Secret Wars II tie-in at the climax does do some damage.


No argument from me.


I may have to re-read this one, and see if this time I can get past both Milgrom's artwork and what I regard as the borderline-schizophrenic tone of the story. Point taken about how the story deals with an ugly subject more sensitively than the superficially similar one from the shameful Avengers 200, but I just think the story could have had equal urgency and gravity without going there.

In hindsight, it's telling that nothing from the Busiek era made my list. A few years ago, I'm certain that Avengers Forever would have been there, for sure. A recent re-read of that series exposed that revered series as, overwhelmingly, an attempt at fixing Avengers continuity, including numerous things I didn't feel really needed fixing. Telling a good story should always be job one, but I found all the continuity porn to be dominating and foremost on that re-read. I think, despite this, it almost made the list. But I just couldn't put it above this other ten, which were all great stories foremost.

As for the rest of the Busiek run, I find it hard to disagree with Fick that it's all pretty much fanwank--though pretty entertaining fanwank in many cases--but fanwank nonetheless. I certainly wouldn't consider anything from my or Fick's lists to fall under that category.

Yeah, Avengers Forever pretty much botched a potentially great premise. Retcons are always an easy way out, but retcons on the scale of "The Crossing" being an elaborate deception by Immortus are an outright cop-out. And even after finally reading "The Crossing" in its entirety a few months ago, and being able to confirm that it really is a terrible story, I still think something of value could have been salvaged in its aftermath.


And regarding the outright unworkable stuff (mainly "Teen Tony Stark,") it's not as hard to fix as it might look.

One thing I'll say about Avengers Forever is, Carlos Pacheco really went the extra mile with the artwork. Shame all the effort was for naught.


These days, what I find most annoying about the Busiek run is how he seemed to think "bigger means better" pretty much throughout. Maybe he was being competitive with the Big Guns JLA at the time, I don't know for sure. But it's exhausting and unsatisfying in the extreme. That actually bothers me more than his selective loyalty to continuity and his pandering to nostalgic old readers.

But, but, but... I liked being pandered to!

I did kinda like how he avoided the trend to filling up the team with 'classic' or 'big 7' heroes, and included both some established heroes who'd never been Avengers (Justice and Firestar) *and* attempted to introduce some shiny new characters (Triathalon and Silverclaw, who, granted, went over like a fart in church, but I give him points for at least trying, unlike today's Avengers, which seem to be the same old, same old Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, etc.).

Huh, it just occurred to me, now that the Phoenix has been retconned to be Thor's mother, and is currently inhabiting his teammate Echo, Thor is on a team *with his mom.*

"Honey, don't chew with your mouth open. And get your elbows off the table."

"Mooommm!"

In my opinion, Busiek wrote Justice and Firestar horribly. He came off like a wide-eyed dork, and she came off like a miserable killjoy.

I'm surprised Fabian Nicieza is still friends with him, after Busiek basically ignored all the good things Nicieza had done to evolve those characters in the original New Warriors series.

Poking my head in to say that Ann & Paladin, I really like all your choices - I am particularly chuffed to see Assault on Olympus mentioned as it really cemented Monica Rambeau as a powerhouse, and the WCA Lost in Space/Time story was one of the first story arcs I remember being into enough to actually try and get every issue. It may not necessarily have landed everything it attempted, but it was pretty mind-blowing for me as a teenager seeing this story mine old continuity I'd only ever read about in the OHOTMU/Marvel Index books and have a whole bunch of different storylines going in different eras. I wish Firebird had stayed with the team but I guess she suffered the fate of all the other peripheral Avengers women who never get to see their potential filled beyond maybe one storyline if they're lucky.

re: Busiek's run....I understand the comment that it's nostalgia heavy without really contributing any groundbreaking stories, but I do think Ultron Unlimited classifes as an epic on its own merits because it re-established Ultron as a terrifying threat and it firmly put Black Panther and Firestar on equal footing with Cap, Iron Man and Thor in terms of experience/power. I would probably put the initial Morgan le Fay story there as well, both because of its scale and because it easily established the kind of respect and knowledge that Busiek has for the characters. Even though Monica Rambeau hardly ever popped up again and it was a while before the Wasp got involved heavily in the title again as well, I love how that storyline established them as people who are at the core of what the Avengers are.

I've never read "The Crossing" and doubt I ever will. Of course, about all I really know about it is the broad strokes of the Tony Stark part of it. I'm curious about what else went on there and if any of it was actually somewhat good?


Totally agree about Pacheco's efforts on AF. I stop short, though, of agreeing it was "all for naught". For me, it STILL nearly made the list. There's a lot in the story (the roles of Songbird and Genis-Vell, for example) that is still good and memorable. It just should have been about celebrating and embracing Avengers history instead of attempting to fix it all with duct tape.


I'm sure George Perez's influence didn't hurt either. Obviously, he wasn't there the whole run, but still the guy known for Crisis wasn't looking for a more intimate Avengers book. But, yeah, Morrison's hugely successful JLA had to be a factor, as was having to right the ship The Crossing and Heroes Reborn. For the latter purpose, similar approaches have been used for course corrections after bad creative runs. Just think John Byrne's Spider-Man relaunch after the Ben Reilly Clone Saga.

Busiek/Perez's initial line-up was certainly pleasing to me at the time, as well. But Busiek was possibly the least successful of all Avengers writers at creating new Avengers or adding existing characters as first-time Avengers. I an't think of one that stood out or came away looking better by the end of their run. I don't like what Bendis did to the Avengers, but many of the B- and C-List characters he added found new life from obscurity and are still thriving years later. Busiek didn't do that with anyone and, in fact, seemed to go out of his way to make fans hate them. I'm an overall big fan of Kurt Busiek, but this alone makes him a lesser Avengers writer by my reasoning.


Ugh. This sounds like utter shit! If this is from the current Donnie Cates run, I'm not looking forward to that first TPB my CBS guy talked me into getting.

"Olympus" was considered. I'd re-read it within the last year, but I didn't like it as much as the others I listed from that era. Fick is correct that the Nebula story lacked a solid ending, but I found her fascinating and liked her unrepentant portrayal. Too many female villains have a soft side, but here was a self-announced daughter of Thanos who was ready to seize his legacy. (I like the MCU version of the character, btw, in and of herself--but her resemblance, appearance and personality, to the original 616 Nebula is very superficial.) I also loved the ominous feeling of Thanos's derelict ship. "Assault on Olympus" was beautifully drawn and fairly entertaining, but the outcome for Hercules was very predictable.

Love your thoughts on "Lost in Space-Time"! Can I coax some of your thoughts about Mockingbird and the Phantom Rider?


Here's a secret, just between you and me...and everyone else reading : I'm not in love with my Ten Best list. I hate that it's such an Englehart/Stern lovefest.

Part of me desperately wanted to include some of Busiek's run or maybe even something else from Lee or Thomas...or even that dad-blasted Korvac Saga! I also considered "Nights of Wundagore", which featured strong Byrne art and Starlin's "Final Threat", among others.

I think, maybe...just maybe, if the bulk of the Busiek run was as fresh in my mind as those older stories, there may have been an appearance or tow on the list. The only part of it I'd re-read was AF, so my reaction to that has likely colored my view of the others. I've read or re-read pretty much all those older stories since Busiek's run ended, so they are all much fresher in my memory.

I am always up for talking about the WCA, they were my favourite team for a while

My thoughts on that story have definitely changed over the years...when it first came out I could understand why Bobbi did what she did and it made her much more of a badass to me than I had previously thought of her as being, but I was pretty firmly on Team Hawkeye in that I too believed killing is never justified and that as a hero she should have done everything she could to save Phantom Rider even though he was a bad guy. (On a side note, I really wish when the team split up over Bobbi letting the Phantom Rider die that they'd had some more time to explore that dynamic...it would have been interesting to see how Bobbi's crew and Clint's crew evolved from that starting point)

Now that I've had *coff*a few years*coff* more life experience, I think Bobbi was 100% justified in what she did and Clint was an absolute douchebag discounting his wife's sexual assault entirely while he got on his high horse...and from a meta perspective, I kinda think that whole storyline was dealing with themes that were too mature for the book. Steve Englehart has the nuance of a sledgehammer and he reduced a very horrible thing that happens in the real world to superhero histrionics.

I don't know that Bobbi's ever really recovered from it as a character either...for pretty much the rest of that title's run she was characterised as a flakey woman who lets her emotions lead her to stupid decisions, which has some very squicky connotations about how these writers view women and sexual assault...I mean, let's face it - if Phantom Rider had abducted Clint and roofied him for sexytimes, I doubt very much that later writers would suddenly have Hawkeye become a generally incompetent moron who helped take apart the Vision because of his inability to make rational decisions...

It is so awesome to see this thread so packed with new posts! Thank you, Lardy and Raz! I'll do my best to catch up this weekend.

Mine too, for much of that run! The mix of characters had a lot to do with it, but also the character interaction/soap opera and overall lighter feel were appealing. I never didn't like Stern's run, but there was a more somber tone to it that put it slightly behind for me. Keep in mind that I was a teenager in high school around that time! Plus, I've always loved Hawkeye.


Obviously, as said above, I was (and am) a big Hawkeye fan, so teenage me, especially, would drift toward agreeing with him.

Regarding Englehart's "nuance of a sledgehammer", even having re-read this a year or two ago, I'm not sure he ever used the words "rape" or "sexual assault". (He probably couldn't have because of the Comics Code, and I doubt Marvel would've allowed it anyway.) For teenage me, I don't know that I ever realized that's what actually happened, if I even had knowledge of such a crime. I was pretty naive about a lot of sexual things, having not had any firsthand experience at the time. I know it would be very obvious to a more mature reader, but that was not me at the time. I knew she was extremely angry and had been mislead into believing she was someone else, so the depth of her anger went over my head. I didn't, however, blame her for letting the Rider die. But when there was a schism, it was hard for me not to side with Hawkeye. I still liked Bobbi and lamented that the two were never the same after that.

While she may have "never recovered" during that series run, I really enjoyed the short-lived Hawkeye & Mockingbird series of several years ago by Tim Seeley. It even revisited the Phantom Rider and bravely addressed those events around the Rider's return. I was glad to see someone have the nerve to unbury the story with some maturity. Even this wasn't perfect, but I appreciated the effort. It also seems Bobbi has headlined a well-received (though controversial for the writer daring to have a "feminist agenda") solo book and a WCA revival. Both were short-lived, but the character has at least gotten her due.

As for Hawkeye, this is one of the more unfortunate examples of the character often demonstrating emotional immaturity. It goes back to his earliest days as a character and sadly fits in with his reaction to what happened to Bobbi and what she did. I don't defend him at all, but I can see him being unable to deal with what happened to his wife emotionally and instead leaning into his moral outrage about what she did. Honestly, with everything we knew about Hawkeye up to the point of his meeting Bobbi, he should never have married her. Obviously, it was a whirlwind courtship, and that's the only way it could have happened. Any mature woman who would try to romance with Clint for a prolonged period would see he's not husband material without him making some changes and getting some therapy. I love Hawkeye, largely for his flaws, but this is the worst thing he ever did.

Thanks, Raz. Monica holding her own against Zeus was truly awesome!


Well...MIke Deodato's art was better than I had remembered (or maybe it's because most of the other art, except maybe for Tom Morgan's Iron Man art, was bad.) There's also the thing I put in a spoiler box, about the potential for meta-commentary about how much the world (and the Me Generation) had changed since the Celestial Madonna Saga. As for the story itself, it's hard to summarize but basically it involves the return of Kang (or the illusion thereof) and his corruption of Iron Man, who ends up killing people; there's also a bunch of previously unseen time-traveller characters, including the return of the Anachronauts (or, again, the retroactive illusion of all this.) I could try to elaborate further if you'd like.


Fair enough. Just as it could be argued that Busiek's final 20 or so issues should have been about inducting Genis and Songbird into the Avengers instead of that bloated Kang story.

Beautifully put! Thanks, Lardy.


Fair enough on Olympus, and I totally agree about Nebula's unrepentant portrayal. There are not nearly enough villainesses of that caliber. Roger Stern's friend John Byrne, to his credit, portrayed Nebula well during the time Byrne was writing Avengers and writing/drawing Avengers West Coast. Then Byrne was fired, other hands completed his story, and then the whole disgusting resurrection of Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet crap...sad, just sad.


One of the highlights of the previous All Avengers thread was our Korvac discussion. I'm always up for a lively Korvac discussion. Hint, hint. But I don't like the Wundagore story at all, despite the art -- it arguably set Wanda on the course to Disassembled. Final Threat is solid but doesn't really stand on its own apart from the rest of the Bronze Age Marvel Universe Warlock Saga.



Okay...guess it's devil's advocate time for me. First off, I think Al Milgrom's art was horrible -- he did have more chemistry with Engelhart than he did with Stern, but it's just so grossly amateurish-looking! As for the "lighter feel," I mentioned earlier that I thought Lost In Space-Time had a borderline schizophrenic tone...I actually think that could apply to the vast majority of that run. All sorts of creepy stuff with demons and cat people, but at the same time, this weirdly wonky attempt to be...for lack of a better word, chirpy. It just gave me the willies.

I should check that out, I kinda got burned out on a lot of Avengers stuff after Johns, Austen and Bendis got their hands on 'em...thanks for the heads up!

Everything you're saying makes sense actually, I think I'm just bitter about it because Bobbi got treated so badly afterwards and then had the stupidest death scene I've ever seen in a comic, and for years after that was the end of her story. But I can't argue that anything Clint did was out of character (although it'd be nice if writers other than Busiek or Nicieza could retain his impulsive moron side while still letting him grow up a bit, but that's a different rant altogether lol)

I can't argue about the art...I think these days it would be enough to put me off buying a title, but back then I had just discovered comic shops and I was buying just about anything Marvel put out

I get what you mean about the schizophrenic tone too; I actually liked it but I can see how it would be off-putting. I think that's kind of what I was getting at when I said the whole story around Bobbi's abduction was probably too mature for that title to handle properly (in retrospect I think the same thing about the early issues with Tigra and all the focus on her sexuality....like there's all this stuff touching on consent issues and her lack of control when it came to jumping everyone's bones, but then it all gets wrapped up with a neat bow and hey now she's got a tail, time for the next plot! - I'm not sure if stuff like that should actually be raised at all if it's not going to be explored with sensitivity)

In no particular order, and off the top of my head...

West Coast Avengers - #42 - 47 - The Visionquest.
I read a reference about Vision and his world domination, and so wasn't completely in the dark on the reasons behind the antagonists here. I remember that Byrne gave us a reminder that the world governments were more than a shouty Gyrich or whatever Claremont was doing in the X-Books.
In addition to the excellent plot and lovely art, Byrne built the West Coast team into a more effective force that the East Coast had. For me, they were the main Avengers team at the time. Byrne built in a number of little character plots for good measure, showing his craft in building a strong team book.
This run also had the Great Lakes Avengers. Back then the Marvel RPG had a sourcebook where the players could create their own franchises. This was a lovely reminder of that. It was also an entertaining story in its own right, and set up Hawkeye for the later Thunderbolts.

Avengers 16
The changing of the guard. Hinted at in the preceding issues, it sets the standard for the team's fluidity over the decades. The following issues where the team have their differences and look to be breaking up in the shadow of their more powerful predecessors is well done too.

Avengers 23 -24.
The Kang/Immortus stories had already been highlights. This story showed Cap's Kooky quartet bury some differences and pull together against a major foe. Kang would be given a lot more depth in this two parter, as the book continued with longer stories.

Avengers 181
Gyrich cuts down the team in my favourite roster change issue. Although 151 was really good too.

Avengers (1998 series) 1-4
I was in the target audience for this one. A crash course in the Avengers characters and history along with a dynamic plot that brings them together to forge a new, very powerful, lineup. Perez art is always a massive plus.

Avengers (1998 series) 19-23
A seemingly unstoppable Ultron destroys an entire country. It was a tense, escalating story where victory for the heroes looked seemed very much on the line.

Avengers 157
A one shot following on from Black Knight's fate in the Avengers/Defenders war. There's lots of action counterpointed by the Vision's observations on humanity at the end.

Avengers 140s -
The Serpent Crown. For me the more overall consistent story when compared to Korvac and Celestial Madonna stories. Although I did originally read this one more in sequence which may plat a part in me thinking this.

Avengers 355 -
Somewhere about the start of where the Gatherers saga kicks off. This was one that styed with me due to the potential in the storyline. Dead Avengers returning and survivors of alternate Avengers teams being gathered.

Avengers 161 -162.
Another all-action Ultron story. This one has the birth of Jocasta and her poignant sacrifice.

Thanks for chiming in with your own favorites list, Thoth.


This storyline is, for me, the high point of the entire West Coast ongoing run. Really, I think Byrne had his moments on both of the Avengers books, but it was always a plus when Byrne did both story & art. Credit is also due Mike Machlan, who inked these particular issues (he had also inked Jerry Ordway many times in the 80s.) I'm not keen on the follow-through with Wanda going completely over the edge, but "VisionQuest" in and of itself is a solid achievement.


I'm always happy to see these stories get some love. The Kang vs Kooks story is 3 for 3 so far, very heartening.


Yeah, even though the Gatherers Saga is a favorite of mine, in 20-20 hindsight I find that it did peak right around here (I'd personally say from 355 through 362 without a break.) It should have been resolved in 363, or at the very least by 365. Unfortunately, that was the same year as the 30th Anniversary extravaganza and its corresponding "every third issue has to be an event" remit from Marvel execs. Not to mention the contrived participation of the X-Men who were also turning thirty, even if it did afford the pleasure of seeing Steve Epting draw the X-Men.

I (finally) just started the Avengers: The Gathering Omnibus! Two issues in and 343-344 have a LOT going for them--they FEEL like Avengers stories in all the right ways! Interpersonal drama, action, humor, spot-on characterization, classic-feeling Tom Palmer inks over Epting pencils....BRING IT ON!!!

YAY! So glad to hear you're enjoying it, Lardy!

It's been bittersweet revisiting the Avengers work of the late, great inker/colorist Tom Palmer. And not just because we will never see any more new art from him.

A lot of Palmer's most memorable Avengers moments are inextricably linked to a man who is arguably the most problematic of all the Avengers writers: Roy Thomas.

My main issue with Roy is not his plot holes, which I can forgive, nor his cheesy dialogue, which I actually find endearing in its exuberant melodrama. No, what troubles me is the inescapable racism and misogyny on display. Of the former, there is the cringe-inducing portrayal of the Black Panther, which Christopher Priest has sharply and deservedly criticized. Of the latter, only one word need be said: Yellowjacket.

That's my two cents. What about the rest of you Legion Worlders?

Oh man, Roy Thomas can't write women to save his life....I did an All-Star Squadron read a while ago for the first time and I'm actually surprised Liberty Belle comes off as one of the most competent members of the team because it's in stark contrast to the way I've seen him write women literally any other time.

When I read old stuff from the 60s or 70s I know I have to adjust my expectations for the era, but I remember even when he started writing Avengers West Coast in the 90s he did a lot of damage - he turned Mockingbird into an embarassingly incompetent moron who ultimately was just there to die in the stupidest way possible for Clint's manpain...he shuffled Tigra off-stage as soon as he took over the book, and Spider-Woman's whole character beat was pretty much "divorced mum" the whole time she was there. I think in literally the first issue he took over, he had Jan's wasp sting just inexplicably not work for the sole purpose of being able to have one of the guys save her ass.

Come to think of it, was it Roy Thomas who wrote that old Avengers issue where Jan's big feat was avoiding being eaten by a bird before she fell out of a tree and knocked herself out? He really shouldn't be allowed near Janet Van Dyne specifically, I don't know what he's got against the Wasp

I haven't really read a lot of the stuff from T'Challa's first shot at being an Avenger so I can't really comment about that, but again going by Avengers West Coast his default setting for literally any POC seems to be "angry young <insert nationality> man" - he did it with Sunfire, he did it with War Machine and he did it with Living Lightning

EDIT: I actually just remembered the way he shuffled Tigra off was to have her go live with some First Nations tribe in Australia and THAT was cringey as hell because it kinda came across like well yeah obviously the woman who's literally half-animal feels more comfortable around these noble savages in loincloths...so yeah okay I am with you on the racist stuff too!

Liberty Belle was something of an exception, although I think Firebrand showed incredible potential early on. Unfortunately, Roy seemed to quickly get bored with her.

And, yes, Wasp came off very badly when written by Roy. But Hank came off even worse, all the groundwork for his descent under Jim Shooter was already laid out.

Regarding Black Panther, Roy actually made him ridiculously passive and ineffectual. Compare that to the way Kirby and Lee had introduced him as regal and self-assured.

I appreciate you filling us in on Roy's AWC failings. Some people just never learn.

I agree with you on Hank, I feel like that story where Goliath got stuck at 10ft tall kind of set the tone for Hank just being a mess of psychoses moving forward....and then the Yellowjacket stuff speaks for itself obviously (and Jan comes out looking horrible there too)

Actually speaking of Goliath...one of the things I hate most is Hawkeye becoming Goliath, it just really makes zero sense for Clint. His whole schtick is that he's a normal guy even moreso than Cap is, and he's proven that he can stand alongside mutants and gods with just his skill. Bill Foster was right there if they wanted a size-changing guy who wasn't Hank, and it would have made a lot more sense for Bill to become Giant-Man early than it does for Clint to just give up a lifetime of training to become a giant punching bag who never really does anything memorable with his powers.

Off-topic, but I was first introduced to Firebrand through COIE and I instantly loved her because you never get to see female superheroes from that era who aren't someone's sidekick slash girlfriend...it's a shame that the only thing Thomas ever did with her was make her a weird racist for a one issue PSA, if she'd been treated better back in the 80s she might be seen as one of the necessary add-on JSA members these days!

Agree 100% that Clint should never have become Goliath and that Bill should have been the one to take up the mantle from the start. Very well said, Razsolo.

Re: Firebrand, check out the Re-reads thread circa March 2020 for a lively discussion of the first 20 issues of All Star Squadron.

Jason Aaron is finally leaving Avengers at the end of this year! I'm temporarily without a PC and I don't know how to link with my phone. Could someone please post a link to the announcement on Marvel's official website? Thanks!

Much appreciated, Thoth

I am so glad Aaron is leaving, I might actually be able to read this book again finally

His run has definitely been a tremendous disappointment to me. I imagine other fans of his good work feel much the same.

If the Bendis Avengers run was too stubbornly earthbound, then the Aaron run was too out-there, utterly lacking in any kind of grounding.

So...I've temporarily put aside my beloved 90s Marvel in favor of getting reacquainted with 80s Marvel. There was no need to get reacquainted with the Stern/Buscema/Palmer Avengers, as I reread those regularly. Which leaves plenty of time to reassess West Coast Avengers and to read Solo Avengers for the first time ever.

To wit, I borrowed the WCA Epic Collection trades from the library, covering the Stern/Hall/Breeding miniseries through Lost in Space-Time. The first volume also includes the Iron Man Annual which has Erik Josten becoming Goliath, the Wonder Man one-shot, the double team up in Avengers 250, and the two issues of Vision and Scarlet Witch that crossed over with WCA.

It's a mixed bag, to say the least!

The miniseries holds up beautifully, Stern once again proving himself the definitive 80s Avengers writer and Hall doing the best art of his career, no small thanks to Breeding. I've always liked the Iron Man Annual, which has surprisingly good art by Luke McDonnell and the team of Akin & Garvey -- I swear that in many spots it reminds me of my beloved Don Newton! But the Wonder Man one-shot is awful. A below-par showing from Kerry Gammill is made unbearable thanks to Vince Colletta, combined with a terrible David Michelinie script. Avengers 250 is just okay -- Al Milgrom's style of drawing has always turned me off, and the story feels like then-Avengers editor Mark Gruenwald did most of the plotting, leaving Roger Stern as little more than dialoguer.

As for the early issues of WCA proper, Steve Engelhart turns in an awkward, tentative performance. The opening storyline, which crosses over with the aforementioned V&SW, is more-or-less the same story he'd planned in 1976 as the follow-up to The Serpent Crown. The through-line about the ultimate showdown between Wonder Man and his psychotic brother, the Grim Reaper, is sturdy enough, but the whole business with the Reaper being a racist who makes an exception for the "black albino" Nekra is ham-fisted and cringe-inducing. Mediocre art from Al Milgrom and Richard Howell doesn't help at all, though I find Howell more bearable than Milgrom. And the third issue of WCA is a showcase for Tigra, a character I've always found off-putting, and even though Engelhart writes Kraven the Hunter very well, in the end it's all too predictable. That's as far as I've gotten. Let's see what I end up thinking of the rest.

Finally, the first issue of Solo Avengers was quite the pleasant surprise, a Hawkeye showcase that delves into his origins and is solidly written by Tom DeFalco and beautifully drawn by MD Bright and Joe Rubinstein. Speaking of beautiful artwork, the Mockingbird backup story is drawn by a very young Jim Lee, in the Marvel House style which had been established back in the 70s, and with strong inks by Al Williamson. I'm greatly looking forward to Solo Avengers 2.

It's been years since I read these but my memory leaves feelings matching up close to yours. I remember enjoying the mini-series and then collecting the ongoing but not being quite as enamoured with it. Didn't stop me buying it and reading it. The effort to spin a tale about the "three brothers" was interesting but yeah, that thing between Grim and Nekra about him accepting her because she was "white" never sat well. Memory says the dialogue and art left Nekra uncomfortable too and it did come from the crazy brother so perhaps it was meant to be cringe-worthy. As for the art it was probably the most disappointing part of the series for me, although I may be thinking of later issues which seemed to be trying to cram so much in that I felt like needing a magnifying glass to see the characters properly.

Not sure I ever read the Solo Avengers series. Sounds like I should check it out.

Thanks for chiming in, Stile.

Good point about Nekra's unease and how the whole thing was supposed to make us cringe. But it could also have been challenging and compelling, if not for the ineptitude of Engelhart's execution. In the end, it makes it hard to feel anything but relief at the fate of the Reaper.

Well, I'm now several issues deep into WCA, and while some of the subplots involving certain team members are interesting, and there's a nice extended guest-star role for Ben Grimm, I'm just still not won over yet. The problem, as I see it, is threefold:

1. The aforementioned Al Milgrom artwork. His villains, be they demons or monsters or whatever, just look so silly that it kills any potential gravitas. The only issue that worked for me visually is the one where Kyle Baker does the art over Milgrom's layouts, the one introducing Balkatar the cat-man. That one, at least, has a nicely moody look.

2. In a word, Tigra. There is nothing wrong with a protagonist having many unlikable traits, but I find her unbearable and impossible to feel sympathy for.

3. Engelhart writes like it's still the 70s, a very different decade than the 80s, aesthetically and otherwise. Perhaps that was part of the book's appeal, but I just find it sad that a writer who had once defined the superhero genre now seems old, quaint, and out of step.

But I'm going to press on and see if Lost in Space-Time is any kind of improvement.

Thanks for your thoughts on WCA, Fickles.

I think I first came across them in an excellent Avengers RPG supplement. In addition to lots of Avengers facts and history, the scenarios allowed players to start up their own Avengers franchise. A really good gaming hook (and just one reason why the Great Lakes Avengers were popular)

I picked up a couple of issues, not in any order. But despite being quite keen, they just didn't work for me. Your comment on them being written like they were in the 70s chimes with my reaction. I wasn't a fan of Milgrom's art on it either. Despite reading Iron Man, none of the cast particularly appealed either, at least in the way they were written there.

I wasn't a regular reader until Byrne.

Thanks, Thoth. Yes, as we agreed earlier in this thread, Byrne's Vision Quest is the indisputable high point of WCA.

Aside...

As I read you getting WCA from your library, the radio is talking about further cuts to library services in parts of the UK. Where I am, it would seem the libraries are slowly being set up to fail. Regular sell offs of books, moving into smaller premises, and reducing hours results in less visits and books taken out. Then the council's declare that they aren't as popular, and announce cuts.

Technology means that libraries across the region are connected and you can order books from any of them. That there's still not a huge choice, and certainly not for comics, says a lot on how all of them have been chipped away at.

... Aside returns you to your regular funny books.

This post is going to be a long one.

Lost in Space-Time, generally considered the definitive story of the WCA's Engelhart Era, is by turns fun and frustrating, charming and creepy.

Things definitely start out on the right foot. When the team arrives in the Wild West, they help out a small group of Marvel's Western heroes round up a whole mess of goofy, gimmicky varmints -- each and every one an actual villain from old Marvel comics. And from there, they travel further and further back in time. Engelhart is at his best when he's fitting the disparate pieces of Marvel's past into continuity, without ever being pretentious or pedantic. In some ways, this is the kind of story that Avengers Forever tried and failed to be.

Of course, AF had the late, great Carlos Pacheco on art, and this story is saddled with Al Milgrom. And yet the time travel sequences are so ingenious and engaging that the art becomes bearable, if only barely.

The present-day sequences, with Firebird/Espirita saving Hank Pym from a suicide attempt, are also well-written, the subplots involving both characters paying off nicely.

Which leaves us with the elephant in the room, the kidnapping and rape of Mockingbird by Phantom Rider, one of the Westerners. I am now more convinced than ever that this obvious attempt to give the story greater gravity and drama was completely unnecessary. So what if the story would have been lightweight and completely retro without it? If getting older as a member of Fandom has taught me anything, it's that the superhero genre really needs to lighten the hell up more often! Dark superhero stories are fine in and of themselves, but this type of awkward cross-breeding is doomed to fail unless the writing comes from a truly exceptional talent, such as Peter David or Alan Moore. And even those writers got it badly wrong sometimes.

According to Engelhart, the stories that followed this one suffered from him clashing with Marvel's EiC Tom DeFalco, until he was shuffled off WCA to make way for John Byrne (apparently, the final straw was Engelhart's insistence on bringing back Mantis.) I myself side with DeFalco as far as Engelhart is concerned. None of Engelhart's 80s work, not WCA nor Silver Surfer nor Fantastic Four, was an unqualified artistic success. Sometimes you really can't go home again.

And...it has begun.

Avengers Assemble Alpha, the first installment of Jason Aaron's final Avengers story, was released in stores today.

I probably won't get to review it until early next week. But if anyone wants to comment on it before me, feel free.

I just finished reading Avengers Assemble Alpha.

Jeez Louise, what a stinker!

Full-length review to come later.

REVIEW: Avengers Assemble Alpha

(SPOILERS follow)



Not since the worst moments of the Avengers' Bendis Era has there been such a motley bunch of heroes and villains with so little chemistry among each other, fighting such boring and badly choreographed battles. Jason Aaron and Bryan Hitch have proven themselves many times over on previous projects -- but a reader unfamiliar with these creators could be forgiven for assuming their work is always this dull.

Aaron's dialogue is particularly bad -- there were moments where I thought he might be channeling the ghost of Mark Gruenwald. The only two characters who make the slightest bit of a positive impression are Captain Carter and Doom Supreme. But with this many pages to fill and this many characters jockeying for face time, it's not enough.

The plot, such as it is, consists mostly of heroes fighting heroes -- the most tired and tedious of all Marvel tropes. When the aforementioned Doom Supreme finally moves in, it's almost a relief, if only because at least he has the charisma lacking in all the other villains and almost all the other heroes.

Don't get me wrong, I love multiple multiversal analogs, but not when they're this lame! The average 12 year old could do a more imaginative job than Aaron has here. And with a lot more conviction to boot.

Still, I somehow got through the entirety of Bendis's final storyline -- remember that one, the microversal adventure with a lame stand-in for the copyrighted Baron Karza? (Bendis called him Lord Gouda, or something dumb like that.) So I figure Aaron's finale can't be much worse.

Famous last words...

Doom Supreme: John Coltrane's 1965 follow up album to A Love Supreme, after he got up in a bad mood only to find the milk had gone off.

Too bad this was such a dud. Hitch has been a bonus to a number of wide screen, big scope plots. So, this one must have been pretty poor to to get the benefits of that.

I didn't know Bendis' had used the Micronauts. I was thinking of a reread of them, after having read some Bill Mantlo Alpha Flight. I hunk I'll give Bendis' version a wide berth.

LOL

That really jazzed up the discussion. Thanks, Thoth.


Yeah, I wasn't expecting much from Aaron, but I was shocked at how weak Hitch's performance was. Completely undistinguished.


The status of the Micronauts in the Marvel Universe seems to be that the characters Mantlo created from whole cloth are owned by Marvel, but the ones based on toys that already existed are not, and can't be seen in Marvel comics.

Micronauts: Yeah, there was a non Marvel series where it was an odd echo of the Marvel series, as they used the toy company's trademarks.

An installment of the X-Men / Micronauts crossover made an impression on li'l thoth. And the Micronauts spent plenty of time in the main Marvel Universe in their own series. Can't recall another Avengers team up. You'd have thought Ant Man and/or Wasp at least...

The whole point of the Bendis Avengers trip to the Microverse was to rescue the Wasp, who had been presumed dead since getting zapped by Skrulls during Secret Invasion, but had actually gotten microscopic.

Ironic that Bendis would end his Avengers run that way, considering that the Wasp arguably came off even worse than the Scarlet Witch in Avengers Disassembled, Bendis's opening salvo. Wanda might have been guilty of mass murder, but it was Janet who triggered Wanda's rampage with a rude and thoughtless remark.

I didn;t even remember that the wasp could become microscopic. It used to be that the Micronauts would grow into the main universe, but still be small.

It was only fairly recently I read Byrne's treatment of Wanda, after the VIsionquest arc. All that Dark Scarlet Witch bit. I'm sure the notes said he liked her character. While he did give it lots of focus, I can;t think of anything that was positive for her. Bendis seemed to follow that up. Were they all walking on eggshells around her for years, hoping no one mentioned kids, had a kid (and *not* in teh Carol Danvers plotting way either thanks, the power pack visited or they rescued kids?

The Wasp didn't deliberately become microbe-sized. It was some kind of effect of the ray she was zapped with. I don't remember the details.

Regarding people being on eggshells around Wanda, I don't think the kids or the Dark Wanda stuff were ever mentioned again until Disassembled. Which I think proves what an exercise in barrel-scraping Disassembled was.

I remember disassembled for laughing at how absurdly Bendis dedded Hawkeye. After random acts where he was trying to increase tension, it became silly. And now a giant monty python foot comes down from the heavens to crush Captain Britain! And now Tony realises he's always been made of iron and rusts! Now they lose their funding (again)! Now most of the FF join, only so they can say "I quit!" like their own book! Now Jarvis is revealed as the Beyonder!

I hated the Scarlet Witch thing in Disassembled because there was a whole story after Darker than Scarlet where Wanda learned about her kids again and came to peace with them being gone (I wanna say it was in Avengers Spotlight but it could have been one of the annuals too)...her powers built back up again after Immortus used her and she led the WCA, never had any issue with Spider-Woman's daughter being around, no sign of mental instability all through the end of that series, all through Force Works and Busiek's Avengers and then we're supposed to believe that she snaps one day and loses her mind because of a single offhand comment?

I have the same issue with characters being all "well of course she was crazy, she married a toaster lol" - the Vision was a core Avenger for years and a lot of them fought to recognise his personhood more than once...Quicksilver being so weird about their marriage was a noticeable trait precisely because Pietro was the only one who thought of Vizh as being less than human.

I just think at the end of the day Bendis has nothing but contempt for a lot of old-school Marvel characters and he takes any opportunity he can to show everyone how little respect he has for any of them. There's something really distinctively nasty in the way he writes stuff like Tigra being terrorised by a gang of 3rd rate hoodlums or Thor and Iron Man joking about which Avenger girls they've banged...Kurt Busiek used nearly everyone who's been an Avenger at some point or another while he was writing the title and I'm sure he didn't love all of them but he understood that every character is someone's favourite and didn't do this juvenile "hurr hurr Hawkeye got himself blowed up because carnie archers are dumb right" rubbish that Bendis did constantly.

Anyway. End rant lol

An Avengers arc about the team falling apart because of the actions of one of the membership called 'Disassembled' sounds like a clever idea.

And after that concept, it all goes loudly to hell. Wanda acts contrary to what we already know (she already knew about and had gotten over her kids being gone), develops brand-new squiffy 'whatever-I-want' powers nothing like her old bad luck bolts, and even that badly-defined 'reality manipulation' is handled inconsistently. (At one point, it's said that her power rewrote stuff *retroactively*, so that the people she de-mutanted *would never have been mutants,* so anyone who fell out of the sky because they lost the power to fly? Wouldn't have happened, since the only way they'd have been a half-mile up in the air is with an *airplane* wrapped around their un-mutant never-could-fly ass.)

And yeah, Tigra *who is twice as strong as Bendis' favorite tank, Luke Cage* getting beat up by street thugs was just more of his usual (vaguely misogynistic) nonsense.

Sounds as though Bendis had his idea, and wasn;t going to let pesky things like loads of stories establishing the contrary get in the way of it. No doubt he'll be back one day with his "Jarvis was a deranged serial killer all along" story.


From what I've read of the stories, Vision's humanity and acceptance of himself and from others was central to the character. It was a thread picked up after Byrne rebooted him, with Vsion showing plenty of emotional hints during later stories and in the Busiek run. Pietro's super power of being a tool proves Vision is fine and that everyone else likes him, and thinks nothing of Wanda being married to him.



Oh, I saw the Tigra thing. I'd forgotten that was Bendis (if I ever knew). That was some of the poorest plotting I'd seen in a long time. Similar to the above, his idea trumps any number of established stories, and this one had a mean misogynistic angle to it. A scene to make you lose interest in a book immediately. So, I didn't see Thor and Iron Man's chats. Which would, again, have been completely unlike them, and enough to make me stop reading right there. Makes you wonder if you're reading about the writer's personality seeping into the book.

It's weird because he always seems like a nice enough guy who is enthusiastic about comics in interviews, but then none of that ever comes through in his work.

I do feel like he at least had good intentions with Superman, the Legion and the X-Men but a lot of other non-street level stuff he writes really does just come across like someone looking down their nose at how dumb superhero comics are.

Pretty much the impression I get from almost everything Mark Millar has written for Marvel or Image. Some writers manage to deconstruct and build in another direction, like Morrison or Frank Miller, but Millar just seems to like to tear down everything better writers have created, plow up the ground, sow it with salt, and then dig to an even deeper low.


There was a great line, from Hawkeye, perhaps in Thunderbolts?, where someone said something about Wanda and Vision's relationship, and he said he had trouble wrapping his head around it at first, but some wiser Avenger told him to just accept it because 'you can't define love.' It was kind of neat.

I think Bendis tries way too hard to be all things to all people.

In my view, Millar likes superheroes, it's the readers he has contempt for.

The worst of that lot is Warren Ellis, whom it seems to me has nothing but contempt for everything and everybody! But at least he's written very few Avengers stories.

The second installment of Aaron's final Avengers storyline is mostly more of the same tedium, except for a pseudo-poetic voice-over which turns out to be coming from...


I can't believe that this arc has been expanded from 3 to 6 issues! Whatever happened to the good editors? I mean, there have been good editors in the past, IIRC.

I just canceled my pre-orders for the remaining 4 installments of Jason Aaron's final Avengers storyline. Money's too tight, and life's too short.

I'm still going to buy the Paul Levitz Avengers miniseries, which has its own thread in this same forum.