Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The 2nd All Avengers Thread

I think Bendis tries way too hard to be all things to all people.

In my view, Millar likes superheroes, it's the readers he has contempt for.

The worst of that lot is Warren Ellis, whom it seems to me has nothing but contempt for everything and everybody! But at least he's written very few Avengers stories.

The second installment of Aaron's final Avengers storyline is mostly more of the same tedium, except for a pseudo-poetic voice-over which turns out to be coming from...


I can't believe that this arc has been expanded from 3 to 6 issues! Whatever happened to the good editors? I mean, there have been good editors in the past, IIRC.

I just canceled my pre-orders for the remaining 4 installments of Jason Aaron's final Avengers storyline. Money's too tight, and life's too short.

I'm still going to buy the Paul Levitz Avengers miniseries, which has its own thread in this same forum.

Sounds as though Bendis had his idea, and wasn't going to let pesky things like loads of stories establishing the contrary get in the way of it.

How well I remember when Mark Gruenwald did this. He came up with an idea, SHOVED it at Roger Stern, who, after a weekend of wracking his brains, trying to make the idea make sense in light of the personalities and histories of every character involved, said he couldn't figure out how to make it work and make sense. So Gruenwald FIRED him right off the book (and out of the company), and Walt Simonson was happy to just take the money and do what he was told.


Funny thing (not really)... around the same time, Kevin Dooley pulled the exact same stunt with Gerard Jones on GREEN LANTERN, resulting in the fans of that book being polarized for the next 15 straight years.

Hi prof. What were the story arcs of those two?

Good to vote with your wallet, Fickles. Just a shame it was such a disappointment for you.

Thank you, Thoth. Yeah, I had expected that at least it would be a tasty feast of empty calories. Chef Hitch really dropped the ball, unfortunately. (Mixed Metaphors Lass strikes again.)

Chef Hitch really dropped the Ball-ognese - Pun Lad to the rescue!

LOL. Much appreciated!

I'll bet Jarvis, the Avengers' butler, makes excellent bolognese.

I'd never get used to having a butler. I'd really have to be making my own cups of tea. It's a personal thing. I'd also feel guilty asking someone else to do it for me as I sat on my butt in my crime cave.

Jarvis must wonder what the point of it all is. All the villains constantly reappear. the Avengers don't seem to resolve anything. He's just waiting in the mansion for the next villain attack, explosion or other property destroying event.

Which is why I shall pitch my Jarvis & The Punisher mini to Marvel. Only Frank Castle can put an end to super crime. If only he had a man on the inside...

AVENGERS # 291-300.

#285 was the last one Stern was able to finish. #286-287 were dialogued by Ralph Macchio (who has a very dodgy reputation among some fan circles), who then did the next 3 himself (with #290 having heavy Mark Gruenwald involvement, but don't ask me what specifically he did). Walt Simonson then did #291-300, breaking up the team, then assembling a new team, then jumping ship once the mess was over as quickly as possible.

Mark Gruenwald (with Macchio on dialogue) did #301-303, at which point, Gruenwald was FIRED off the book as editor! Gee, I wonder his actions over the previous year pissed off Jim Shooter?



The other story was "Emerald Twilight" in GREEN LANTERN #48-50.

Andy Helfer replaced Denny O'Neil as editor, then had to convince Gerard Jones to stick around. After all the hell O'Neil had done to Hal Jordan as editor, Jones wanted to follow in the footsteps of what Roger Stern had done with STARMAN-- create a new version of the character. But instead, Helfer convinced Jones to "bring closure" to Jordan's career. Together, they worked out a YEARS-LONG storyline, which began with bringing Hal Jordan's career back from the brink, having his re-organize the GL Corps from scratch, and slowly rebuild his life. It was slow going, but after 2 years, it began to really come together.

The problem is, 2 years in, Helfer left to other projects, while his assistant, Kevin Dooley, got promoted to full editor. For that 3rd year, things continued smoothly, and included one special story written by science-fiction author Larry Niven (with art by John Byrne). It was the 4th year things went NUTS. Dooley wanted to expand GL into a "franchise" like SUPERMAN and BATMAN, and during that 4th year, there were MULTIPLE GL books (including a quarterly anthology), plus, Hal Jordan became a regular in JL EUROPE and was making incessant guest-appearances all over the place. For a character who was still, arguably, trying to rebuild his series, this was TOO DAMN MUCH Hal Jordan! Apparently, sales plunged, and Dooley blamed his writers for what HE had set in place himself.

Then, just at the key point where Jones' "Emerald Twilight" was about to finally-- 4 years in-- kick things into high gear-- Dooley decided he wanted Jones to write an ENTIRELY-DIFFERENT story. He'd sunk 4 years of his life into setting this thing up, only to have the new editor VETO it at that point. Jones said he couldn't do it, and so was FIRED and replaced by Ron Marz, who apparently was happy to take the money.

Ironically, when Marz then introduced Kyle Ranier, he was doing what Jones had wanted to do 4 years earlier. Except, under TERRIBLE, character-destructive circumstances.


I didn't read GL again until Geoff Johns did "Rebirth" and arguably "finished" the story that had been left hanging for 15 YEARS by that point. Dooley by then was OUT of comics! So much for "Green Lantern's Number One Fan" (as he called himself in the intro to one of the GL ARCHIVE books).

The Korvac Saga.

I used to hate it, now I merely dislike it. I think Jim Shooter is one of those writers who could be good with the right editor, and this storyline started out with Archie Goodwin, one of the best editors who ever was. But then, halfway through the story, Goodwin was moved over to the special projects department, and Shooter himself became Marvel EiC. That, combined with George Pérez departing the story while it was still in progress, resulted in what charitably be described as a big muddle.

To wit, Shooter clearly wanted to strike a note of moral ambiguity with the character of Korvac. Many readers, especially ones who read the story in real time when they were kids, think Shooter succeeded. I beg to differ. In my opinion, something got lost during the difficult process of wrapping up this long, unwieldy tale, and in the end result, Korvac comes across to me as a sociopathic jerk, no more and no less.

All that said, we have had interesting discussions about this fan-favorite arc in the previous All Avengers thread, and perhaps now is the time for another.

I had heard of it as a classic Avengers story. I'd have picked up the Perez issues in no particular order. Korvac just came across as a hook. I was never that taken with it as being particularly special. And I was bothered for sthatome reason that all those Guardians of the Galaxy would hog up all the many membership pages in future issues and RPGs. I must have considered them not to be"proper" members.

I have it as a TPB. Always a bit weird. The very best Korvac could possibly be considered is a benevolent dictator, and the problem with those is that the "benevolence" is always in the eye of the dictator themselves so there will always be some who do not benefit from it or are downright abused by it. history is full of people who did what was right for others as they saw it and while that often benefited some it always harmed others. However one bit I will agree with is writing Moondragon as being sympathetic to the plan and depressed at its failure fits right in with her character.

Thoth, Stile, thank you both for providing some fresh perspectives.

Moondragon, as infuriating as she is, remains true to character throughout, I agree. But Shooter really overdid it when he brought her back shortly after Hank Pym's downfall. He had her enslave a whole alien planet, commit accidental patricide, and worst of all, forces Thor to sleep with her in that sickening way that 80s comics tried to be more "adult" while still operating within the boundaries of the comics code.

Yeah, Moondragon never appealed to me as a character. But then perhaps she wasn't meant to.

Perhaps not, but at least she was amusing in her scenes with Thor during The Serpent Crown Saga, which was written by Steve Engelhart. Far better interpretation of her than Jim Shooter's.

Hmm. Interesting ideas. Still it's all in the writing and art and since I didn't read Black Cat it will be new to me. Looking forward to the Immonen covers anyway.

It's gonna be new to me as well, Stile. This is the first time in awhile that a largely unproven quantity is taking the helm of the Avengers flagship. Hopefully it'll be a pleasant surprise.

I like that Captain Marvel (Carol) now leads the team. I like that Wanda & Vizh are Avengers again. And that promotional art by Immonen is pretty darn sweet.

Hopefully Kang won't end up as overexposed as Thanos. I doubt he will, though.

Cautiously optimistic, that's me.

I'm glad to see Wanda & Vizh too, although whether I enjoy them will depend on the writing. Both characters have been through so much they could do anything.

I'm taking more of a "If I Don't Like Something They Did, I'll Pretend It Never Happened" view.

I've only ever seen 2 writers do her justice: Steve Gerber (in DAREDEVIL) and Jim Starlin.


You know, its a lot like MANY of Jack Kirby's characters... who, NOBODY else ever got right after him. EVER.

Jack Kirby? I thought she was created by Steve Gerber in Daredevil #105 drawn by Don Heck and Jim Starlin.

Oh wait, were you just comparing her to how many of Kirby's characters have been treated? That makes more sense.

Something occurred to me this morning, and it makes me very proud to be an Avengers fan:

I will never read another present-day Fantastic Four story because Jonathan Hickman ruined them for me.

I will never read another present-day X-Men story because Jonathan Hickman ruined them for me.

The Avengers were resilient enough to survive Bendis, Hickman, Waid, and Aaron combined.

The first issue of the Avengers relaunch comes out next week, and I most definitely will be reading it.

For what it's worth, I did peek at a FF comic in the store a few months ago. It actually looked decent. I'm meaning to have a look when the trade comes out.