Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The 2nd All Avengers Thread

Picking up where the first thread left off, Lardy and I were discussing one of the worst storylines in Avengers history, the one dealing with Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) becoming impregnated, and ending in issue #200 with Ms. Marvel basically giving birth to her own rapist and going off with him to another dimension, while the rest of the Avengers act like complete idiots and do nothing to address the gravity of the situation nor to stop this atrocity from occurring.

Understandably, Marvel has been reluctant to reprint this storyline. Previously, it had only been reprinted in black & white, in the long-out-of-print Essential Avengers Volume 9. Now it's been reprinted in color -- in a Marvel Masterworks volume, to add insult to injury!

They even had the story's nominal writer, David Michelinie (who came and went during 1979-1980 as if his monthly Avengers gig was an afterthought) do an introduction for the volume! I haven't read it, but Lardy has. In it, Michelinie claims that his original (and equally offensive) plot, where Ms. Marvel would be impregnated by a semi-organic computer, had been previously done in an issue of What If involving the Avengers, which was why issue #200 was rewritten (by committee) and redrawn (by supposed "feminist" George Perez) at the last minute.

It is worth noting that Carol Danvers, now without her super-powers nor even her emotional connection to her memories, did call the Avengers on their callous, addle-brained wrongdoing, in 1981's Avengers Annual 10, by Chris Claremont & Michael Golden. Now, there was no reason to diminish Carol even further except as a cynical showcase for Claremont's then-new creation, Rogue of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (all of whom the Avengers battle in this Annual.) For all my suspicions of mixed intentions on Claremont's part, I think Annual 10 did at least bring a degree of closure to one of the most shameful chapters in the Avengers (and Marvel Comics's) history.

Almost 20 years later, the Marvel Universe's supposed "Back to Basics Savior," one Kurt Busiek, retrieved the disgusting tale from Avengers #200 from under the carpet. Busiek had already contrived to make Carol an alcoholic (an Air Force pilot who can't hold their alcohol? Whatever, Kurt!) and would go on to have her kill a super-villain in what appeared (to me, at least) to be a fit of berserker hysteria. In the interim, Busiek spent several issues retelling the vile events of Avengers #200, to no discernible point.

With Carol now bearing the mantle of Captain Marvel, and being showcased in both the current (terrible) Avengers series and her own (uneven but sometimes engaging) solo series, this couldn't be a worse time to dredge up Avengers #200 yet again.

Well, obviously, I bought Masterworks 20 (and 21, which also contains another of the ost controversial moments in Avengers history). My goal for a long while has been to obtain all of the original Avengers run in hardcover form for the high-quality printing and the easy accessibility of the stories. To this end, I've got the first three Omnibus editions and multiple Masterworks. In between, there are a few TPBs and some less impressive HCs that I want to replace with eventual Omnibus releases.

I obviously knew 200 was in Vol. 20 and still got it. I wasn't sure for a while if I would actually do so because of 200. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that omitting the story is to pretend it never existed. People need to know it existed and have the opportunity to read it for themselves, so they will know exactly what Marvel let get published back in the day. People need to know this existed and continue to hold the creators accountable.

I haven't read this story since I was a kid. I was barely into my teens and had no idea of the implications. I didn't know better. I thought it was "cool". In the next couple of days, I will read it again. I think I need to. Not because I expect to enjoy it or think better of it but because I need to bear witness as an adult and show the child within me what these people felt was fine to publish and what harm it actually did. I expect I'll never read it again.

I think the introduction--or, better yet, an entirely separate essay should have been included to give the issue its proper perspective and comeuppance, rather than to excuse it.

So that's where I fall on Masterworks 20 and its inclusion of 200. The others, I have to think more about.

Agreed wholeheartedly with both points. I usually think of myself as being against censorship, but sometimes there will be a work of so-called entertainment that turns out to be a personal trigger for me. I appreciate you providing a more objective perspective, Lardy, because, yes, to try to pretend these horrid artifacts never existed is to risk perpetuating the attitudes which lead to such awful work being produced.

As for a separate essay, I'd nominate this one, by the awesome Carol Strickland. She was the very first person within fandom to speak out against 200:

http://carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/index.html

http://carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/msmarvel2.html


Looking forward to seeing what other conclusions you arrive at.

I do think Chris had great intentions with Avengers Annual 10. I don't think he entirely failed either. As you mention, Carol letting the other Avengers have it was a great well-deserved moment. In a meta-sense, it was aimed just as much at those who produced 200.

Chris wrote Carol's adventures in her own comic for a significant run. I do believe he loved the character and used his considerable pull to write a "rebuttal" story fairly soon after the published issue. I don't think any story that did what the Annual did would have ever been published without his anger and the name he's made.

The problem is with what he chose to do to her through Rogue. I honestly have nothing to back this up at all, but I feel his intent was to cleanse Carol and give her a new starting point to leave this story behind her. She appeared in the X-Men book for a while and gained an all-new identity and power-set. She could have went on to bigger things but instead just kind of disappeared for a while.

I do feel Chris has done more for the modern female superhero than most male writers. I give him cerdit for that and the fact that he wouldn't let Avengers 200 be the final word on Carol Danvers.


I think this was Kurt's clumsy attempt to acknowledge Carol's history and try to move her forward, especially as she'd mostly been in comics limbo for several years. So the intentions were good, but we know what is paved with good intentions.....


One thing Busiek did do that was good for her in the long term is bring her out of comics limbo. Since then, she has ascended through the Marvel ranks and is now their premier superheroine. And she's the first female to get a solo headliner in the extremely popular MCU. And she's clearly the MCU's most powerful hero. AND she's CAPTAIN Marvel and the only one to bear that title in the MCU!

Does that make what was done to her all right? Hell, no! But she's here, she's a brighter star than ever and she's not going anywhere!

I'd say, it's a start.

I will read these right after I read 200!

I read all these in the orignal comics, so, no need for me to ever buy any reprints.

AVENGERS was a book that went thru a lot of major ups and downs during my time reading it as it came out. I loved Steve Englehart's run, despite some 3rd or 5th-rate art, and it was a genuine charge to see newcomer George Perez get better as he went month-to-month (I particularly recall the issue where I said when I saw it, "Hey-- no DRAWING MISTAKES this month!") I was DEEPLY annoyed when Englehart left abruptly (in some ways, I can never forgive Gerry Conway for that-- yes, it was Conway's fault). Jim Shooter was better than Conway, but always seemed to me to be a "consolation prize".

When Shooter & Perez started their big "epic" story (something akin to "Crisis On Infinite Earths" quite a few years early), it was fun, but then Perez' bad habit of taking on too many projects and blowing deadlines on ALL of them got in the way, and that story fizzled at the end. It was CHAOS after that. Fill-ins, David Michelinie, John Byrne, Dan Green doing some of the worst inks in Marvel history (REALLY!), Perez coming back here and there... and then you had THAT story with Carol.

There is, I believe, an ENTIRE thread at the "Classic Comics Forum" message board discussing this atrocity. (It's one of the few general comics boards I haven't been BOOTED off of yet... but I have "BLOCKED" 3 members for their non-stop B.S. and bad attitude.)

There were, if memory serves, several instances over the years at Marvel where one writer would do something AWFUL, and another writer would then come in to do "pushback". Sometimes, a 3rd writer would then do "pushback" on the "pushback". I think if these clowns would focus on telling GOOD STORIES instead of the SOAP-OPERA angle of these books, a lot fewer long-running characters would have had their lives, careers and histories TOTALLY SCREWED OVER.

As an aside, my best friend in Georgia more than once has said he always "liked" Rogue because she was one of the very few characters in comics who was from "the south". I NEVER liked her. In fact, I HATED every fibre of her existence... because of what she did to Carol. By extension, CHRIS CLAREMONT did that to Carol, a character he allegedly "loved". B***S***. It's near the equivalent of what Alan Moore did to Barbara Gordon. WHAT IS WRONG with these people? I feel a big part of it is... THEY didn't create these characters, and THEY don't OWN these characters. So they're fine basically saying "F*** YOU!" to the characters... and, their readers.



As for Kurt Busiek... I'm sure this was discussed at excrutiating length in the other AVENGERS thread... but most of his "Heroes Return" work was 2ND-RATE RETREADS on long-past already-resolved storylines that nobody had any business 're-visiting." Maybe he really didn't have any new ideas.

Meanwhile, on Facebook... Kurt Busiek was the 3rd comics professional I was ever FORCED to BLOCK. It started in a Jack Kirby Yahoo Group, where one day he started being RUDE and INSULTING and argumentative and contradicting every single thing I would say on any given topic. I had to leave that group, JUST to get away from the guy. A few years later, he turned up in a Jack Kirby Facebook group... and as soon as he saw me, PICKED UP where he left off. I hit the "BLOCK" button and haven't had to deal with his nonsense since.

On the plus side, I won an eBay auction for Collection Obsession in floppies!

YAY! Congratulations, Lardy! One step closer to having the whole Epting/Harras era!

Okay...brace yourselves...I put in an Inter-Library request for..."Avengers: The Crossing Omnibus!"

Just saw this in a Google search...

"Often denounced as the worst Avengers storyline in history (and it's hard to argue)"





Had to look around to see that Bob Harras was the writer. Well that figures.

I've HATED his work in general since suffering thru "NICK FURY VS. SHIELD" and its sequel...

Tread carefully, prof. Harras has his fans here, and some discussion of his run is about to commence. Criticism is fine; bashing is not. If discussions are about to happen, "hate" interjections should not be shared.

Yeah, well, I read the long, long discussion here a couple years ago about Bob Harras' long AVENGERS run and didn't have much to say, as I dropped off the book about 6 months into his time on the book.

His work on NICK FURY was an insult to the series.

"The Collection Obsession" (Avengers Vol. 1 334-339)

So as a warm-up to reading the Gathering Omnibus sometime this coming summer, I purchased the above single issues (which are not included in the Omnibus) off an eBay lot and read them over this past weekend.

I'm pretty sure I never read this when it originally came out. I feel I dropped the book near the end of Larry Hama's run. Possibly, anticipating a bi-weekly extra money commitment, I might have chose that as a logical jumping-off point for a book I hadn't really enjoyed since Roger Stern left. I was stubborn back then and fiercely loyal to the books I was reading...until I'd had enough. Longtime buys like Spidey, X-Men, Alpha Flight, FF would soon or had already have been dropped, as well. At he time, Vertigo was around its peak and demanding more of my money, and the DCU itself had earned my interest more for overall higher quality.

So I just missed this story arc. Would it have swayed me to keep on avenging? Difficult to say, but Bob Harras certainly looked to start off his run with a story that showed he wasn't afraid to hit the ground running.

The basic plot of the arc is that a mysterious and powerful group called the Brethren have escaped from the Collector's ship and are threatening the Earth and potentially the galaxy with their destructive ways. Over the course of the arc, we learn that both the Brethren and the Collector have secrets that unfurl.

Like I alluded to above, Harras was pretty fearless, going for a fairly sprawling cosmic caper that guest-stars the Inhumans and the Watcher, introduces (and also apparently retires) a new threat with ties to the Celestials and the Eternals, features maybe a couple dozen Avengers and reservists and debuts Crystal as the newest Avenger, This is all just off the top of my head. Most Avengers writers get their feet wet with smaller stories, but not this guy. And I would say, overall, he's pretty successful here, though not without some hiccups and evidence of a learning curve.

We'll start with the flaws. Foremost, the characterization of our heroes is sparse and choppy. Few of them really shine in this arc. Sersi has the biggest role. At times, she's the damsel in distress and the attraction that occurs between her and the Brethren's Thane Ector feels forced. To Harras's credit, it's never a full-blown love affair, but there's a mixture of melodrama and genuine moments that seem awkward. I think in the balance it works overall, The Sersi I think of is strong and wouldn't be kissing her captor, but as a deeper connection between their 2 races is revealed, it works a little better.

Otherwise, the Avengers are pretty flat. Harras has some fun with Hank McCoy, but he just hits the expected notes with him. Cap is his heroic, self-sacrificing self, but he comes across just this side of stupid at times. Crystal gets a few shining moments to prove herself and examine her motives for being an Avenger that are appreciated. Vision's recent status quo change with his Byrne "deconstruction" is highlighted and offers some apparent promise of things to come for him, hinting he's maybe not so unfeeling after all in the wake of what happened to him. Otherwise, not much to see, other than them using their powers and skills, at least.

Honestly, I assume it's the ones on the cover box (minus Thor?), but I'm not entirely sure which Avengers are supposed to be the current full-timers among them.

Another issue is the level of the threat was described but not really apparent in most of the story. I mean, we are shown the destruction the Brethren caused on the other miniaturized habitats in the Collector's ship, but other than their re-decorating of the World Trade Center (always a strange thing to see in back issues) and skirmishes with various Avengers, they don't seem to be doing much to advance their agenda. This, I suppose, is because of Ector's infatuation with Sersi causing a quick turn in his character and a scaling back of their efforts, but given all the reserves being called in, there's not a lot to justify it, other than: "OMG! They beat down Cap!"

The three main Brethren are interesting, if somewhat stereotypical. They are the leader/warlord, his jealous betrothed and his Fool. There is a Shakespearean quality to them that is both appreciated and groanworthy at the same time. It ends up working pretty well, though the betrothed, Sybyl Dorn, gets the shortest shrift of the three. She is, at least, a warrior and not some crying attendant.

So the success of the story lies on the delivery of two things: 1) How much you accept the Sersi/Thane Ector emotional core discussed above, and 2) whether the Brethren and Collector "twists" deliver. The Collector's twist is nothing more than a heel turn. Given the title of the story, it wasn't all that surprising, but at least it was accompanied by a visual of his "true" form that was disarming. The Brethren twist is the core of the story. At first blanch, it's pretty disgusting. (There's this scene in the sewer.... ) But the secret, the shame it brings and the history behind it, make it work. Overall, both mostly work for me, so I feel the story is a success.

The other factor is, of course, the art. Adam Kubert draws the first part, and Steve Epting finishes the arc. I think the main thing Kubert does is he saddles Epting with some not-great designs on the Brethren characters. The costumes don't speak to me, and Ector particularly is left with a thong-like design element on his trunks that looks really dumb. Overall, Epting does a nice job, though. The art has obvious Jim Lee-inspired design elements but has its own flair. My biggest issue is with the fights and the poorly implied damage infliction. When Cap gets beat down, it's implied he is severely injured (even making it a cliffhanger ending), but we don't see blows landing or much of anything, other than reactions from other Avengers. I don't expect or desire hyper-violence, but here and in other scenes, Epting is a little too ambiguous, His storytelling is overall good, but he obviously has some learning to do.

So, overall, I feel this is a good, gutsy start to the Harras/Epting era. It's far from perfect but shows promise and potential. It's an entertaining yarn with both a classic feel and a look toward exploring new territory that makes me look forward to the sprawling Gathering saga.

Agreed. He was certainly ambitious. As I noted towards the end of the previous All Avengers thread, this seems to me, in some ways at least, more like a Satellite Era JLA story than an Avengers story, especially circa the Gerry Conway/George Perez issues (which includes my beloved JLA #200; also, the JLA editor at that time was Len Wein, whom I consider the unsung hero of DC's Pre-Crisis/Early 80s creative rallying.)


I thought she was playing the damsel in a strategic way, to some extent at least. But yeah, I can see where it might not come across, as her portrayal is a bit muddled.


What about Herc?


That's partly Hama's fault, because he created an A-Team and a B-Team, but constantly reshuffled the rosters.


Fair enough, but I love the Fool. Epting draws him to look like something out of Nexus (Rude the Dude is one of Epting's heroes.)



Disarming indeed. And did it remind you at all of Mumm-Ra, the Thundercats' arch-nemesis?


Ha ha ha ha. Somehow, it didn't trouble me at all. But then, given my peculiar sense of humor...


Agreed.


Actually, it's Andy Kubert, not Adam, but that's an easy mistake to make (and not just because their names are almost identical -- their styles were very similar circa 1991.)

The criticisms of Epting's staging of the action sequences is valid and well taken. Definitely a learning curve during his Avengers run.


And again, agreed. Glad you liked it. To backpedal a moment to the JLA comparison, I wish THIS was the kind of story Harras had written when he had a shot at the JLA, but then everything at DC was all about the countdown to Infinte Crisis at that point.

Satellite Era JLA is a good comparison! Having read the O'Neil/Wein/Maggin/Bates/Englehart stuff from the '70s, this seems like the kinds of stories they would tell in 2-parters or especially the 2-parters told in the larger page-count period. An alien invasion, a little melodrama and a twist or two thrown in describes a lot of those stories!


I can see that, but it's the impression I got. Being it was Harras' first go, it's hard to say.


Herc was mostly played off Rage, from what I recall. There was some of that trademark Herc bravura, but he mostly seemed like he was mentoring Rage in the story. What do you remember that made you think Herc stood out here?


The Fool was entertaining...and tragic. I didn't mean to give him short shrift. I thought, though, that he was muddied a bit in his portrayal between being fiercely loyal to Ector but also trying to clumsily (and unsuccessfully) gain Sybyl's affections behind Ector's back. It could be explained away by his admission of insanity, but noth he and Sybyl could have used more development.


Now that you mention it--yes! I wonder if the Collector was ever shown like that again?


It didn't....trouble...me so much, but it's rare that you see a character basically eat poop in an ostensibly all-ages book!


My bad about which Kubert brother it was! It would have been interesting to see how Steve would have designed the Brethren if he'd drawn the whole thing.


Hadn't recalled that Harras ever actually wrote JLA. I doubt I had any interest in the title at the time. Whom did Harras follow as writer? And who came after him?

RE: Hercules, my first Epting/Harras issue was actually 356, halfway through the run, and as I accumulated back issues of the installments that I missed, I just remember thinking that Harras had Herc's "voice" down pat from the get-go, and that Herc was no longer just the comedy-relief clown he had become during the DeFalco/Frenz Thor run. I could be wrong.

RE: Collector rocking the Mumm-Ra look, we did see it again, but unfortunately, it was in Ron Marz's Silver Surfer.

RE: Mid-2000s JLA, this was a particularly bad time for that book. The last writer with a substantial run had been Joe Kelly (who I think had his good moments,) and from then on it was a revolving door: Chuck Austen, Denny O'Neil, Chris Claremont with John Byrne, and Kurt Busiek each did one arc. I've read somewhere that Busiek almost accepted a full-time JLA gig, but his health problems had left him with too little energy to do a corporate team book. Next was Harras, who started out with an interesting take on The Key, but it all ended with Green Arrow and Batman having a punch-up while a green imp laughed at them -- sad, just sad. Then came the big Brad Meltzer JLoA relaunch, which lasted a whopping 12 issues and, IMO, wasn't anything special anyhow.

So I recently re-read Avengers 251-254, the interim issues between Al Milgrom's departure and John Buscema's return. These are also the issues where Roger Stern has the Vision nearly conquer the world in a fit of ISAAC-influenced megalomania.

They hold up fairly well, but I'd say they pretty much encapsulate the best and the worst of Marvel's Jim Shooter As EIC Era.

There is plenty of good characterization here, and the issues are accessible without having read anything that comes before or after this arc.

What is lacking is a good sense of pacing, and artwork that's better than functional. There are mildly entertaining tangents with Paladin and Doc Samson, but all they do is drain some of the momentum off the A-Plot. As for the art, Bob Hall had really impressed me on the West Coast Avengers mini-series (which is the very next thing I plan to re-read,) although my conviction is now redoubled that Brett Breeding's inks carried Bob Hall's WCA pencils a great deal of the way. Issues 251 and 252 are inked by the late, great Joe Sinnott, but by Sinnott's own admission, he spent a large part of the 1980s "phoning it in" (his exact words were, "I just plod along, knocking out those inks.") Issue 253 is inked by the Akin & Garvey team, who could sometimes be good (their inks, along with MD Bright's arrival on pencils, greatly improved the look of Iron Man circa 200,) but they look rushed here. Where the art really bottoms out is the climactic issue 254, credited to Joe Del Beato (who, IIRC, usually worked on Marvel's humor books) and Josef Rubinstein (of whose excellent style there is little to be seen here -- my guess would be that he only did a few touchups to make Del Beato's work slightly less awful.) The climax also suffers from being, basically, an intervention-of-sorts for the Vision ("This month, in a Very Special Issue of Avengers, we psychoanalyze a would-be tyrant.") It's not very exciting, it doesn't play to Hall's pencilling strengths, and the inks are the final nail in the coffin.

Thankfully, with the 20-20 hindsight of knowing how much good stuff is coming ahead, this storyline feels merely like the end of Roger Stern's learning curve as Avengers writer. There is cold comfort to be had.

So this list of the supposed "Best Avengers stories of all time" is complete garbage, first and foremost because it doesn't include ANY of Steve Englehart's definitive work on the series! GARBAGE!!!

I agree for the most part, Lardy, although at least they topped the list with a good one, Roger Stern & John Buscema's "Under Siege." And the 2-parter that introduced the Vision at least was innovative for its time and has exquisite artwork (again, John Buscema.)

Now that the niceties are out of the way...

Busiek's white elephant of a Kang story at TWO? Even a lot of Busiek fans don't like it!

And a Geoff Johns story? That's so wrong on so many levels!

Also: My personal bete noire, the Korvac Saga, and the beautifully-drawn-but-lacking-a-third-act Kree-Skrull War.

I've already forgotten what the other four are.

Okay, maybe "complete" garbage was a poor choice of words because "Under Siege" and some of the others deserve to be there, but any list without the Celestial Madonna, Serpent Crown or Avengers/Defenders War (maybe you can argue against the last one because it's also a Defenders story) is hard to take seriously.

Oh, I don't take it seriously at all. Quite honestly, I've always found myself at odds with the Avengers fandom consensus. There are, unfortunately, a significant amount of fans who ignorantly dismiss Engelhart's Avengers stories as pothead nonsense. This list was obviously tailored to appeal to that segment of fandom.

My own, fairly spontaneous, list of my 10 favorite Avengers stories (emphasis on my favorites, not necessarily other peoples' favorites) --

1. "Under Siege," Avengers v.1 #270-277, by Roger Stern/John Buscema/Tom Palmer, in which Baron Zemo and Moonstone do a sort of Megatron/Starscream thing as the first and second in command of a literal army of Masters of Evil. Because when all is said and done, there is probably no storyline more satisfying in both script AND art, comics being as they are an equally literary and visual medium, something I'll come back to further down the list.

2. "Assault on Olympus," Avengers v.1 #281-285, by Stern/J. Buscema/Palmer, in which the team faces off against the Olympian Gods after Zeus is driven mad by the unfortunate state of Hercules and wrongly blames the Avengers. Even more gorgeous to look at than "Under Siege" (John Buscema preferred doing these kind of archaic mythic settings,) but the plot is not as airtight as "Under Siege."

3. "The Serpent Crown," Avengers v.1 #141-144, 147-149, by Steve Engelhart/George Perez/various inkers, in which half the team battles the Squadron Supreme on Earth-S while the other half battles Kang in, of all places, the Old West. I'm placing this one over "The Celestial Madonna Saga" because its meta-fictional humor is so far ahead of its time and because the artwork is more consistent here.

4. "The Celestial Madonna Saga," Avengers #124-135, Giant Size Avengers #2-4, by Steve Engelhart and various artists (most notably Dave Cockrum on GSA #2 and #3,) in which the seeming interlopers Mantis and Swordsman actually turn out to be not only true heroes but, in Mantis's case, a Cosmic Holy Mother. A true epic, with Engelhart taking Roy Thomas's love of continuity and putting his own, arguably superior, spin on it; if only the artwork wasn't such a mixed bag.

5. "The Gatherers Saga," Avengers #343-344, 348-375, by Steve Epting/Bob Harras/Tom Palmer/various guest artists, in which the Avengers are finally brought back to the cutting edge of superhero stories; another true epic, it tries to outdo The Celestial Madonna Saga but comes up just a little short. I put Epting ahead of Harras because I think that, by drawing all the key issues of this storyline, he went above and beyond his artistic remit and made the story better than it would have been without him.

6. "Once An Avenger"/"From the Ashes of Defeat," Avengers v.1 #23-24, by Stan Lee/Don Heck/John Romita Sr/Dick Ayers, in which the Avengers confront Kang on his own distant-future turf. My favorite Silver Age Avengers story, and arguably the first one with the proper scope and spectacle that would define the series.

7. "Operation Galactic Storm," Avengers #345-347, Avengers West Coast #80-82, Captain America #398-400, Iron Man #278-279, Thor #445-446, Quasar #32-34, Wonder Man #7-9, in which the Avengers intervene in an escalating war between the Shi'ar and the Kree. I'm placing this one over "The Kree-Skrull War," "The Final Threat," and "The Nebula Saga," because I think it's the only Avengers space opera with a proper beginning, middle, and end. In fact, I still consider the ending to be a very ballsy and challenging one, and it more than compensates for the storyline's excessive length and occasional lulls.

8. "The Avengers/Defenders War," Avengers #113-115, Defenders #8-10, by Steve Engelhart/Bob Brown/Sal Buscema/various inkers, in which villains manipulate the two hero teams to fight each other. Arguably, the very first event storyline ever, and still one of the best. I am only putting it way down here because I just don't think any of the artwork had quite enough polish nor enough oomph to do the storyline justice.

9. "The Collection Obsession," Avengers #334-339, by Steve Epting/Bob Harras/Tom Palmer/Andy Kubert, in which a savage band of alien invaders turn out to have connections to both the Celestials and the Elders. Yes, it's plenty rough around the edges, but I don't think it can be faulted for sheer ambition and scope, something we arguably hadn't seen in the Avengers since "Assault on Olympus."

10. "Mine Is the Power/To Tame a Titan," Avengers v.1 #49-50, by John Buscema/Roy Thomas, in which a seriously truncated roster fights a losing battle against Magneto before the subplot becomes the main plot, and Hercules battles Typhon the Titan, with the fate of the gods themselves at stake. The Roy Thomas era does have a lot of faults, which keeps several other sentimental favorites off this list, but this one makes the cut thanks almost entirely to John Buscema finally coming into his own as Avengers artist, after a steep learning curve, and doing his own inks to boot. As I alluded to earlier, comics are both a literary and a visual medium, and sometimes the artwork does manage to carry the story a lot farther than it might otherwise deserve.

Excellent, well-though-out list! Plus, it has LOTS of Englehart, who is, for me, the definitive Avengers writer.

I'm going to make an unranked list, which will instead be listed chronologically. Part of this is because, unlike Fickles, I haven't read all of the classic Avengers era yet. (To me, "classic Avengers era" means everything prior to Bendis coming aboard and changing the basic stroytelling and line-up formula forever--for better or worse.) I'm most lacking in the Harras/Epting era, but some of that has and will be rectified.

So, I present....

Lardy's Ten Best of the Classic Avengers Era (1963-2004) (honestly, though, I only lists stories thru '87)

"Once An Avenger"/"From the Ashes of Defeat," Avengers #23-24: This one knocked my socks off when I read the first Avengers Omnibus! I thought the Cap's Kooky Quartet era was a great shot in the arm for a mostly dull series to that point, and this is the apex. A stunningly beautiful, exciting and emotional story that I think still stands as the best Kang story ever. (Take that "Kang Dynasty"! ) I surprisingly loved Don Heck's art during this era, with or without Romita, Sr., but the combo here is undeniably transcendent.

"Kree/Skrull War" Avengers #89-97: I understand Fick's criticism of the ending, but the ambitiousness of the concept and the events therein are so classic. I don't think Englehart could have swung as big as he would later if Thomas hadn't done this first. The Neal Adams issues are, imo, the finest work he's ever done. One of, if not the, first multi-issue epics in comics and still one of the most fondly remembered.

"The Avengers/Defenders War," Avengers #113-115, Defenders #8-10: Speaking of firsts, how about this epic crossover written by Steve Englehart that helped set the standard. Set up like something out of the classic JLA playbook, we get a series of compelling hero vs. hero match-ups manipulated by Loki and Dormammu. I personally liked the issues drawn by Bob Brown and overall feel the art is nice throughout, but it's not like the best of Avengers art by the likes of Perez, Buscema, Adams, et al.

"The Celestial Madonna Saga," Avengers #124-135, Giant Size Avengers #2-4: So, yeah, this is an unranked list, but, make no mistake, this would be my undisputed #1. This is the apex, the core of Englehart's run. Plot threads he'd been weaving since almost the beginning come together and conclude here. And not just the Mantis stuff but the Vision and Scarlet Witch romance. Roy Thomas gave Steve something to play with Vizh and Wanda, but Steve freaking ran with it and built it to coalesce with Mantis and Swordsman's story. Kang plays another memorable role here, but it is the characters, their triumph and tragedy that carry this one. Yes, the art is inconsistent, but this still doesn't hurt the overall effect in my mind. It's basically the Avengers' Dark Phoenix Saga for me, in terms of that one story that embodies the characters and their potential like no other. It's the story that defines the Avengers classic era, imo.

"The Serpent Crown," Avengers #141-144, 147-149: If Celestial Madonna was the apex, this one was the flourish at the end of Englehart's run. Toward the end of his run, Steve finally got a (fairly) consistent penciller, and one of the all-time best at that with George Perez. As much fun as the "A" story is with the Squadron Supreme, it's the "B" story in the old west (which ends first) that feels most classic and fun here. And, hey, more Kang! Englehart left us wanting more, the way it should be. (And he would have a fairly welcome return! See below....)


"By My Friends Betrayed," Avengers Annual #10: Chris Claremont gets his chance to do a rebuttal of the deplorable Avengers #200, and it's a tragic, dynamic story that is important for many reasons. Fick mentions the "meta" aspect in one of her capsule reviews above and this feels like one of the most meta comics in history as Carol Danvers lets the Avengers have it in the story's conclusion. You can argue that Claremont goes too far here, but there's no doubt that this story has a huge consequences for Carol and the X-Men for many years to come. Featuring great pencils from Michael Golden.

The Trial of Hank Pym, Avengers 226-230: Roger Stern comes aboard for his legendary run and brings Monica Rambeau with him. Roger does remarkable damage control left by the previous 2 years of disastrous writer-by-committee blunders here at the outset. His first order of business here is cleaning up the whole Hank Pym mess in an artful fashion that harkens back to Pym's early days as Ant-Man. Maybe there is indeed some ret-conning done here, but Stern lands on his feet and points the Avengers toward the future by burying the ugliness,

"The Legacy of Thanos," Avengers #255-261 and Annual #14, and Fantastic Four #19: Buscema and Palmer come aboard and instantly bring new artistic energy to Stern who had been hampered by dull artists like Al Milgrom and Bob Hall. Even better, the team attempt to continue Thanos's titular legacy without bringing him back! Instead, they introduce his apparent daughter Nebula and make her a huge threat in her own right. It's exciting and a little dark, but most importantly, it looks to the past while moving undeniably forward. It's a splendid way for this creative team to kick off and has seemed unfairly overlooked, Well, the wildly successful MCU didn't overlook it, even if they had a different perspective on Nebula.

"Under Siege," Avengers v.1 #270-277: The apex of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run. At its core is a simple idea--super-villains team up to overrun a superhero headquarters. But it's done here like never before and with consequences and heavy drama. This ends up being the origin story for the Thunderbolts years later. Without this story, Thunderbolts doesn't happen, simply put. But that legacy aside, this is simply the great Avengers epic that the Korvac Saga wishes it could be but definitely wasn't.

"Lost in Space-Time," West Coast Avengers #17-24: Englehart returned to the Avengers many years later, albeit on the curious West Coast spin-off. The apex of his return this go-round is this time-travelling epic that is at its core, just plain fun (with one exception). Steve basically revisits the fun he had in Serpent Crown's "B" story and touches base with a lot of Marvel history. The thing about this one that gets talked about to this day, though, is Mockingbird's subplot with the Phantom Rider, how he takes advantage of her and how she gets her revenge. It's controversial and ultimately breaks up Hawkeye and Mockingbird, Should Steve have gone there? I still don't know, but it's powerful and thought-provoking to this day. At the very least, it doesn't take lightly when something like Avengers 200 asked us to just accept something similar. But let us not also forget the stunning work that was done with Hank Pym here as he contemplates suicide. Englehart's use of Firebird/Espirita as his counselor and allowing her to use religion in helping Hank was itself very unusual. Of course, Englehart's WCA is saddled with Al Milgrom as series artist, but this arc contains what passes for his best work, for what that's worth.

Thank you, Lardy. And I say the same about your list.


Agreed 100 percent!


LOL


Good point well taken.


Very good insight in that classic JLA comparison! I'd go so far as to say that I wish Engelhart's own JLA stories had been more like this -- even the really good ones like the origin of the Guardians one.


Fair enough on the art. And I like the comparison with "Dark Phoenix Saga."


I prefer the "A" story, but I see your point on the classic and fun feel of the "B" story.


ROTFLMAO Good save.


Well put. And thanks for mentioning Golden's amazing art, which often gets overlooked with most people tending to focus on Claremont's script.


Much as I love Stern in general, I still can't quite warm to the first half of his run. Most of his stories, including this one, are solid, but the art...just a real lack of chemistry there. The WCA mini-series being the exception, although as I said earlier in this thread, Brett Breeding's inks made a world of difference, IMO.


I'm glad you mentioned the Annuals. I take back what I said about it not having a proper ending, but I still think the Secret Wars II tie-in at the climax does do some damage.


No argument from me.


I may have to re-read this one, and see if this time I can get past both Milgrom's artwork and what I regard as the borderline-schizophrenic tone of the story. Point taken about how the story deals with an ugly subject more sensitively than the superficially similar one from the shameful Avengers 200, but I just think the story could have had equal urgency and gravity without going there.

In hindsight, it's telling that nothing from the Busiek era made my list. A few years ago, I'm certain that Avengers Forever would have been there, for sure. A recent re-read of that series exposed that revered series as, overwhelmingly, an attempt at fixing Avengers continuity, including numerous things I didn't feel really needed fixing. Telling a good story should always be job one, but I found all the continuity porn to be dominating and foremost on that re-read. I think, despite this, it almost made the list. But I just couldn't put it above this other ten, which were all great stories foremost.

As for the rest of the Busiek run, I find it hard to disagree with Fick that it's all pretty much fanwank--though pretty entertaining fanwank in many cases--but fanwank nonetheless. I certainly wouldn't consider anything from my or Fick's lists to fall under that category.