Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The Kurt Busiek debate

Good grief, if you're gonna start an entire thread just to BAD-MOUTH somebody, do it with someone who deserves it, is regularly ASKING for it.


Allow me to share a post I just made at a Yahoo group I'm in...


I was SO tempted to say something rude. I even sent Allan a personal e-mail containing the discussion we had here where I was SHOCKED at how bad some of Kurt's earlier work was (which I'd totally forgotten) and was dismayed, if not outright appalled, at some of the failings of his "good" work. But I didn't post it at the site.


My last post at the site, was in reference to a previous post. I'd talked about a lot of things... and JUST HAPPENED to mention, again, that F***ING F*** MILLER cover to the otherwise "pretty" and "quaint" SUPERGIRL ARCHIVE book. And Kurt zeroed in on that, and posted about 6 PARAGRAPHS, mostly repeating what he'd said a couple weeks earlier, AS IF I HADN'T UNDERSTOOD WHAT HE SAID THE FIRST TIME.


And I replied, "Why can't you just call a PIECE OF SH** a PIECE OF SH** and be done with it? GEEZ!"


My last post. He replied to that with no less than 4 POSTS in a row. I didn't even read them. I just looked into the Yahoo stuff, and found the button that says, "leave group". Enough's enough.


If anyone here remembers, my entire time at Kirby-L, I think I only blew my top once, and it was in reference to the GDC, when someone took it upon themselves to try DEFENDING them at a point where my patience had completely run out. They should have minded their own F***ing business.


Kurt REFUSES to mind his own business. Maybe that's why his books aren't as good as he THINKS they are. (My friend Kevin likes Kurt's stuff... but he reads a LOT of Marvels AND DCs, I suppose in that context, Kurt's stuff isn't COMPLETELY AWFUL, if only BY COMPARISON. (see?))


The thing with SUPERGIRL is a no-brainer to me. Kurt INSISTS that the person who came up with the idea of getting F*** Miller to do the cover (A CLOSE PERSONAL FRIEND OF KURT'S, I HAVE NO DOUBT) was a genius, since, according to him-- and he INSISTS on this point-- the ARCHIVE book would "NOT EXIST" if it hadn't had F*** Miller's cover on it. I mean-- that's MONSTROUSLY stupid. OF COURSE it would. Miller's fans would NOT BE CAUGHT DEAD buying that book, and MUST have been deeply OFFENDED by such a collossal rip-off as to have a brand-new Miller cover on a book they would otherwise use for bird-cage lining. WHY can he not see this??? I CANNOT believe sales went up because of Miller's fans! This was a $60 book!!! Who in their right mind would pay $60 JUST for a BAD COVER??? Of a character they hated?


Whereas, to me... SUPERGIRL was JIM MOONEY's baby all the way. Kurt also said it was out of the question, DC would "NEVER" have commissioned Mooney to do a new cover (HE WAS STILL ALIVE at the time). HOW THE F*** can he know this with such unshakeable certainty? In either case, it would have been much cheaper to use an interior panel from the early 60's for the cover illo. and it would have been APPROPRIATE to the material.


It's like... if you do a collection of KIRBY material, you have a KIRBY cover on it. Anything else is BULLSH**!!!!!


I don't like argueing with people. At Kirby-L there was a LOT of stuff going on most days, and it was easy to skip the crap. Actually, sometimes it was a CHORE to skim over the crap looking for the "good stuff" that wasn't crap. But at Allan's site, there is ONLY KURT.

It's hard to get in on the middle of a conversation, prof, particularly when it uses such strong language. One thing I've always tried to keep in mind when evaluating someone's work is that my opinion is just that: an opinion. Subjective, open to reasonable disagreement, and open even to modification by myself. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing the topic.

On Busiek . . . It's been a long time since I've read anything by him (or any comics, period). I think for the most part he's had great ideas but, like too many comics writers these days, he's so steeped in the lore of Marvel and DC that he brings little that's new to the table. I was really looking forward to his Avengers work back in the late '90s, but gave up on it after about 18 issues because I felt I'd read it all before.

Likewise, his JLA/Avengers crossover with Pérez was chock full of all the fanboy references and minutiae that would be expected, but which overwhelmed the story itself. That's a shame because Busiek had a wonderful idea: compare the philosophical differences between the DCU (with heroes who are usually effective) and the MU (with heroes who are more fallible), and let the two teams battle it out over who was "right." I wished that the story had stayed focused on that instead of trying to feature every character and every costume that had graced both teams.

I call that the 'Perez problem.' I love the guy's art and have very fond memories of the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans, but my gosh, every since Crisis on Infinite Earths, it's become some sort of primary objective to anything he draws to include every darn character that can be found, stolen, kidnapped or scraped off of the underside of a rock.

That sort of 'everyone *and* the kitchen sink' approach hugely detracts from giving any single set of characters the sort of characterization and development they deserve, IMO.

As for Busiek, I like his stuff. If he's a jerk in real life, that's not much of an issue for me, since I'll never meet him in real-life.

I very much liked the Power Company, and his run on the Avengers, but I noticed that he has the same problem as another of my favorite writers, Peter David, in that he does a great job of fleshing out and developing pre-existing characters, but his own creations tend to be dull.

I wondered if that was the case, but since Busiek's name is on the book as writer, he shares equal blame, IMO.

As for him being a jerk . . . when he took over Avengers, he was also posting to an Avengers fan site at the time, and, through that, I was able to exchange a number of emails with him. I found him to be cordial and polite, even if we didn't agree on certain issues.

The main issue/hang-up for me then was that I felt super-heroes should age semi-realistically, and he gave me a number of reasons why that would never happen. He was absolutely right, from a marketing perspective, even though accepting his logic destroyed much of the appeal Marvel heroes held for me. (I loved the idea that the MU took place in a timeline that, however compressed it was, always seemed to march forward. Busiek helped me see that Marvel time was actually quite stagnant, though that may not have been his intention.)

Even though we didn't see eye to eye, I appreciated the time he took to compose each response to me -- and he responded to EVERY post of mine, even when I was critical of certain aspects of the first few issues. He probably would have kept the dialogue going if I had responded to his last message . . . but it was I who had nothing more to say!

Since I am the one that started the thread in question here...It was not started to bad-mouth anyone. It all started in this thread...

http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=002734;p=5

Wheere I posted that I was not a fan of Kirby'sart, but recognize and appreciate what he did for comics. That generated several responses, both agreeiable and against my point of view. No biggie to me either way, as art is largely subjective.

I brought the topic over here to avoid hijaking another thread for what amounted to friends not agreeing about an artist. End of story.

If I was going to start a thread just to bad mouth a comic professional, it would not be Kirby. In fact...it would be, and was Rob Leifeld...here:

http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=002223#000000

It's all in fun of course, but it's an abysmall book on all accounts. I have met Rob several times over the years, and he is aa really nice guy. He just cannot draw or write his ideas out well at all.

As far as Busiek goes...met him a few times as well. Nice guy, and he has written some good stuff over the years, as well as some clunkers. Most everyone who writes for comics is not going to please everyone all the time.

Prof, maybe it's just me, but I don't feel the "Kirby debate" thread is about "bad-mouthing" Kirby, per se. It seems fairly balanced and gives posters a chance to voice an opinion contrary to popular wisdom. If it had a "Kirby sucks" vibe to it, I'd lock it in a heartbeat. That stuff just isn't tolerated here.

Anyhow, I generally like Kurt Busiek but acknowledge he has some weaknesses. I also like Frank Miller and acknowledge same. But is the fact that you and Busiek have a difference of opinion about the quality of Miller's Supergirl cover (could it really be THAT bad?!?!) and had a row over it sufficient to use as a springboard here?

I've said it before with John Byrne: I frankly don't care whether or not he's a jerk; all I care about is whether or not I enjoy his work. I feel as a moderator on Gym'll's that the emphasis should be on the work and not the person. We should discuss whether Kurt's work is derivative and unoriginal but should refrain from branding him a hack or labelling Miller's cover "birdcage lining".

It's a fine line, but LW is a place where we try to keep on the more pleasant side of it. I'm not saying you are a troublemaker, Prof. You are a terrific and valued contributor to LW and Gym'll's in particular. But there was a lot in your reprinted letter that is in poor taste.

Please take this response as it was intended. I mean no offense or condescension here.

Personally don't think it's that bad, but I can see that not everyone would like it.

Chief, you hit the nail on the head with my Kirby thread...thus wh I labeled it a "debate" thread. There is no single right opinion when it comes to any creator...it's a thread to discuss the highs and lows of one particular creator that is credited with quite a bit when it comes to comics and their genisis.

The Supergirl cover looks dreadful . . . as if Miller sketched it on his lunchtime, on a napkin.

But Busiek is certainly free to defend whomever he wants to, for any reason.

Even though I didn't see any bad-mouthing in the Kirby thread, and don't see what a weird, private tiff between you and Busiek over who drew the Supergirl Archives cover has to do with a debate about his talents, profh0011, in the interests of balance I'll post my views on what I've read of Busiek's work.

His Astro City is one of the best comics I've ever read and definite proof that the man can write!

However, his work in the DCU has been nearly consistently disappointing IMO. As I wrote in another thread around here (maybe the Astro City one) Busiek just cannot keep away from alternate realities and timelines and what-not when he's writing a DCU storyline and that's the last thing I want from him. When I'm reading a Kurt Busiek story set in the DCU, I want a Kurt Busiek story set in the DCU!

Instead, his JLA arc - all about Earth 3 and the Crime Syndicate, his year-long Trinity tale - 12 long, boring months all about some other reality and characters that were so obviously going to disappear and never be heard of again at the end of the story, his recent Superman run - more alternate timelines and characters and so on.

The only Busiek penned DCU stories that I can think of that were actually set in the DCU are a couple of his early JLofA stories (not all though - the JLA/JSA story from that era was another set in a different and uninteresting dimension), his Red Tornado mini, and The Power Company.

Not enough.

P.S. I've never had any interactions with him myself, but he's always seemed very friendly and approachable from what I've seen of his online presence elsewhere.

All I'm gonna say is, I'm usually all-too-happy to badmouth Busiek, but I won't do it in a thread created for that express purpose. That, in my opinion, is just a waste.

I apologize for even having started the thread. (If the moderator would care to DELETE the whole thing, please do so...)