Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Does everyone hate Batman right now?

Everyone in the comics, I mean.

I know he did various wacky and poorly-thought out things in his own books recently--the whole War Crimes mess, and the preceding randomly choosing and immediately firing a new Robin, and so on--but it seems like he's popping up in other books all over the place just so he can get verbally/physically/emotionally beat on by other characters.

He throws a punch at Superman in his book and then gets lectured. He grouses about Hal and then gets chewed out by John Stewart in GL: Rebirth. He fights the JLA, gets mindwiped, finds out about it and then does nothing but mope in Identity Crisis. For God's sake, he tries and fails to intimidate Wally West in the last Flash issue, and then suddenly starts asking Wally for advice on interpersonal relationships.

I don't follow Bats that closely, but this caught my eye for some reason. Is it coincidence, or an editorially-mandated trend? Is the result of War Crimes and Identity Crisis intended to be that he has a falling-out with the superguys and slinks back to Gotham to do his lone avenger thing in a more "realistic" style?

Just curious.

Could be an editorial thing. The Bat-editors would certainly have to approve these appearances.

I think it might be some kind of reaction to the "Bat-God" we've had for the past several years. Though I can't see him getting pulled away from team stuff seeing how crucial he is to JLA and (obviously) Supes/Bats.

Maybe one of these days they'll try making him likable again, just to see what happens.

You forgot to mention how his super-plan to defeat Gorilla Grodd in the pages of JLA Classified got beat down in about 3 panels and he ended the issue roasting on a spit! Ha! Death to the Uber-Bat!

I'm not a huge Batfan anyway. Never have been.

Although I would certainly buy the BATMAN series that EDE recently proposed. It sounded hella-awesome.

I can't say for sure, but I think it stems from the Batman/Superman throwdown in "Return of the Dark Knight". People liked the notion of Batman placing himself above the supertights set and it's been part of his characterization since.

Thing is, most of these recent scenes have seemed to place Batman below the supertights set. It's them rejecting him for his emotional problems--and doing so more out of contempt/irritation than the fear and discomfort he's traditionally supposed to produce.

I'm not much of a Batfan either--I don't really care how he's presented provided the story is interesting--but it just seems like a remarkable turnaround in all these books where, a few years ago, he would show up like the Ultimate Dad and tell everyone to straighten up and do their job.

Well, I found that less surprising since that was Morrison poking fun at his own version of "Batgod."

Honestly, I never really thought his Batman was that uber. He was just a really smart guy who was constantly running his brain at full capacity because he knew one mistake would get his frail non-powered human body splattered. To paraphrase, "I don't have superspeed or invulnerability and I can't afford to be next to poorly-trained targets in bright costumes who do."

He was far from unbeatable in JLA, remember. Triumph slapped him down one-handed and Prometheus beat him too--Bats actually complained about the humiliation!

Bats needs Prozac.

Hopefully, he'll settle out somewhere between dad-god and emotional wreck. He was one of my favourite characters in the 70s/80s but I haven't found the plethora of current batbooks too enticing.

I've always loved Bats, and his stories (when done right, have always been some of the best). I wish he’d be more friendly though in the current DCU, like the old days.

I currently can’t stand any of the Batman books (the ones with him as the lead). Very poorly written. I also think, that like Wolverine, there is a major Bat-backlash, and lots of the current writers tend to take it out on him whenever they can get a few jabs in.

I'm with FC. I loved Batman in the 70s/80s but have found nothing (except for Hush) that I've enjoyed since the early 90s.

While not as overexposed as most Marvel characters I think he is suffering the same kind of backlash Cobie mentions.

You'd think both publishers would learn with the large number of titles that get canceled to just focus on the main ones and not overextend characters.

I think they (the infamous "they") have over done the lone gun, urban legend, Machiavellian angle of Batman for too long.

You can't be a member of the JLA and be an urban legend.

I would focus on the villians more and their various plots that endanger Gotham City. Get off the whole psychological analysis of why Batman is Batman.

And yes, don't over extend him. It calls for too much suspension of disbelief to have Batman involved in too many things.

I don't mind that other heroes are getting annoyed with him. It shows that he's actually not perfect. If he were simply right all the time and always got the last word, that'd be boring, but now his demeanor is being seen as something negative and sometimes not constructive. I like that this flaw is an extension of his positive traits, rather than something tacked on.

I've always liked the basic idea of Batman, though I've never really read his series on a regular basis.

I'd move rapidly away from the notion of him as a loner, however. When I think of Batman, I'm immediately led to think about the whole "Bat-family". Unlike Superman, who is a rather singular individual in Metropolis, Batman is part of this whole costumed subculture of Gotham. And, unlike Superman (at least traditionally), Bruce has this whole support network of people who aid him as Batman, at least some of whom are in on his secret identity.

What I see as the most interesting aspect of the Bat-mythos is the contrast/conflict between two worlds: the near utopian high society of Gotham and the often violent, strange, and surreal street culture. Bruce enters the latter to protect the former from it. I'd invest more in exploring what exactly it is he's protecting.

I like the idea of returning Bruce Wayne to his roots as a kind of bored socialite who seems to be doing absolutely nothing positive or worthwhile with his life, but has this whole secret life in which he actually is making a difference. Give him an "Aunt Harriet" character who's constantly urging him to do something worthwhile, or at least settle down with a nice girl. Maybe even give him a girlfriend, someone extremely "normal" to contrast with his other life.

Plus kill off The Joker.

I honestly don't think I'll *ever* like The Batman while The Joker is still alive.

Oh, they've killed the Joker plenty of times ...

Honestly, though overuse has diluted his appearances, he still ranks as #1 Bat-baddie for me (and dare I say most people) because the times when he's in a good story are among the best.

But there's no believable reason that he hasn't been put to death 50 times over now. I just can't buy it. As far as I'm concerned, every ounce of blood he spills (and has spilled since, the late 80s or so-- the dawn of the "grim & gritty" age) is on Batman;s hands. Batman's a reprehensible killer.

I think the evil clown thing has become a little too cliched. And there's a lot more interesting Bat-villains to use.

Yeah, to be more believable I think they have to just make sure the Joker gets away. I don't know about having Batman decide that he needs to be put down though. Batman shouldn't be a killer -- maybe some brainwashing ...

I'm beyond bored with the Joker. I groan whenever he's in a story--my old college roomate just couldn't understand why he's still around.

Bat's two other biggest villians, Two-Face and Ra' Al Ghul, are a lot more interesting, IMO, and I like seeing them more. They both get overused from time to time also, but never to the extent that Joker has been. Two-Face has real potential for emotional conflict, and Ra’s and Talia can make for excellent stories without rehashing Denny O’Neil’s 70’s run, (although I’d be hard-pressed to find an example in the last fifteen years).

I also really like Clayface, Poision Ivy, Scarecrow and a whole host of others that barely ever get time, and most people don’t even know about. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing Hugo Strange or Catman, and I think Zssazz as he first appeared was the most terrifying Bat-villian of all time. I wish they’d get more of a chance to be done right.

Look at Killer Croc: His first story (early Jason Todd story) was unbelievably good, one of the best of the late 70’s/80’s (the height for good Bat stories IMO), and Croc was shown to be not only strong, but cunning and devious. Over the years he’s turned into the typical dumb idiot strong villain, like the Rhino, etc., and recently Azzarello had him as nothing more than a very strong street thug/pimp. WTF? Croc had the potential to be *awesome* and still does…yet now he sucks. Meh.

The last ten years have seen too many Joker and Lex Luthor stories and not enough good stories with the rest of the baddies.

I agree with MLLASH and Cobalt Kid. To me the words 'Joker' and 'good story' are incompatible. He's probably my single most-hated character in all of comic-dom.

Not only has he been over-used and over-used and over-used to the point that I feel like I've now become one of his victims (except that my face is etched in a permanent grimace whenever I see him) but everything about him is tired, old and cliched.

And I agree with MLLASH that his very existence makes Batman a failure. Seeing Batman apprehend him for the murders of dozens of people and just send him off to jail knowing full well that I'll be reading the exact same scenario in about 3 issues time is just one of the many reasons that I don't read Batman comics any more.

I know reading comics is all about suspension of disbelief but the idea that *someone* hasn't found a way to put the Joker down permanently after all the horrific things he's done is just a step too far for me.

The Joker is by far my most loathed character in all of comics.

I always said that, if I ever become head of DC comics, having the Joker killed horribly-- on panel-- and then having his body destroyed-- on panel-- would by my number one priority.

I mean, REALLY. Even The Gotham criminal underground would want him dead.

Is there ANYONE in Gotham who DOESN'T want the Joker dead aside from Batman and Commisioner Gordon? Shame shame shame on them.

Not only that, but it should be some random Gotham citizen who gets to do it. Not Bats, not Babs, not even Comissioner Gordon--all people who deserve revenge. But why destroy their characters by having them commit it?

I say: Joker has Gotham no the ropes, Bats is about to be killed and...*BLAM*!. Some old lady, who life has been saved countless times by Batman and who benefits from his very existence, leans out her window and blasts the Joker right through the back of the head! Batman looks up, shocked, and finally says a quiet "Thank you".

Then, Bullock arrives on the scene and blasts five more shots into the body, or some cop or thug puts it in a furnace or something.

And jeez, this way, Doris Jenkins, the Golden Age Bat-Grandma gets her first post-Crisis appearance!

The only time i've ever like the Joker was when he killed Jason Todd..... hee hee!

i tend to like the bat -- in theory ... i'm an irregular buyer of his titles, aiming for either creative teams or guest-stars ... but i do enjoy Bats a lot more than Superman or Green Lantern

that said: let Joker & Batman take each other out -- let the DCU grow into its next phase

wouldn't it be cool if Joker got taken out PERMANENTLY and it appeared as if Bats did too? Then Bruce Wayne could get on with having a life as a billionaire playboy adventurer detective and the kids could grow up and take their appropriate next steps, right?

it's a lot better than constantly killing the characters before they have a chance to grow up

Batwoman, Spoiler, Orpheus, Jason Todd, Vesper Fairchild ... and there's probably some big change gonna hit Nightwing next year in the Countdown -- it's a sick cycle they're in over in Batland