Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Suprisingly *Good* comics of the 1990's!

Lets keep it on topic LAM. Good comics in the 90'S.

You're referring to the Justice Society Returns arc from 1999, lam, which did indeed revive various old comic titles for one issue runs.

Never read it, so I can't comment on whether it's good.

Thank you EDE...I never read that mini-series either, but the covers were excellent.

Now...Good comics of the 1990's?

Why, it had to have been both LEGION titles before and after ZERO HOUR, but before the Abnett-Lanning-Coipel run.

Is that closer to the subject at hand?

I remember reading (and buying) all of these: Spawn, Savage Dragon, Youngblood, Brigade, Bloodstryke, Shadowhawk, WildCats, etc., etc.

Wow, oh wow. I was so young and naive!

Nothing at Image IMO got really good until at least a few years into it, but I have to say that Image did go on to have some great stuff later in its existence.

When I created this topic I had mainly DC and Marvel in mind, but the same could be applied to other 1990's companys. For example: ARCHER AND ARMSTRONG by Valiant, was pretty good for a long time, and I even liked the Dan Jurgens run on Dr. Solar towads the end of Valiant's existence.

In my mind, comics went through a rough patch in the late 1980's-early 1990's, but by the end of the 90's the overall quality of comic books began to improve...so I'd expect more good ones then. I never really include JSA as a 90's comic, or hell, even Morrison's JLA.

And jeez, didn't you guys ever read Gunfire, Anima, Blood Pact, Terror Inc., Spirits of Vengeance, etc.

I am proud to say I only own one book from the "Image Age of Comics" and I didn't even pay for it.

The only Valiant comic I ever read was The Second Life of Doctor Mirage which was pretty good to me at the time (haven't re-read it since I bought it, so I dunno what I'd think now!)

And I have the first two issues of Anima around here somewhere...

Speaking of THE JUSTICE SOCIETY RETURNS (and yes, it was pretty good-- one big storyline, done by a dizzying variety of creators, JUST like the original ALL-STAR COMICS stories used to be)... I remember how Matt Wagner seemed so hell-bent in SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE on taking things SO damned "serious", and there was a couple of different stories that paid tribute to Sandman's "superhero" era, but in way that made it clear he was saying that Sandman NEVER wore a superhero garb, and NEVER had a teenage sidekick!

Then JUSTICE SOCIETY RETURNS comes out, and right there in the FIRST episode (or so) you see Sandman & Sandy The Golden Boy. So-- does this mean SMT takes place in an alternate universe, or was this just someone's way of thumbing their nose at Wagner? (Sandy, of course, has been a big part of JSA ever since!)


Also, while I loved the regular 4-part mystery format (similar to DOCTOR WHO!), which allowed for each story to stand on its own, WHILE the ongoing subplots could build slowly (a MUCH more "organized" form of writing than in MOST comics of the last several decades, I must say), the TONE and CONTENT of too many SMT stories began to bug me after awhile. Wagner apparently had a major obsession with the dark, twisted, SICK aspects of crime and evil... At one point I had a letter printed in which I lamented "the sickos" were out in force again, and editor Joan Hilty thought I meant something else...! (I told her-- I was talking about THE CRIMINALS!!!)

I've imagined for some time that the Vertigo SMT stories belong in that twilight world of Vertigo stories that feature DCU characters. So it probably isn't continuity for the DCU Sandman.

IIRC there are a few things that don't quite match up with the DCU like the superhero suit/kid sidekick. I don't remember the exact details, but I seem to remember Janos Prohaska's appearance being problematic with his prior established history, but don't recall now the exact "why".

The relationship between Wes & Dian began i the very 1st issue... and slowly, slowly developed, in a wonderful, natural way, all the way thru to the last issue. I tend to think of SMT-- the entire series-- as a "prequel" to the original SANDMAN series (though, not having read most of the original stories, I can't say where there may be contradictions).

The one BIG contradiction to come out of Sandman in recent years is Dian living to a ripe old age. Originally, she just disappeared between episodes-- when Sandy was introduced! Roy Thomas wrote a SECRET ORIGINS story where he revealed she got killed... This is one "retcon" I'm glad was later "retconned" out of existence!

Mostly after Wagner left and Steven Seagle was writing the book solo, he began slowly introducing elements of the JSA into certain stories, which I really liked. It was neat to see these characters BEFORE they formed the group.

As for Blackhawk, my main recollection is his SMT appearance was in line with the Howard Chaykin BASTARDIZATION of the character. I don't recall if there was any conflict between the 2 depictions... but both were DEFINITELY not "Earth-1"-- which is the guy I miss. To me, although I'm generally a purist when it comes to Golden Age matters, the Mark Evanier-Dan Spiegle BLACKHAWK series was the "definitive" article! They showed a man who managed to remain a noble hero in spite of the horrors of war... while Chaykin, so typical of him, showed a lowlife sleazebag even when there wasn't a war going on.

Count me in as another Power of Shazam fan. And I'm usually anti-retro, so something like this has to be extra special. I loved the graphic novel, I consider it to be the middle ground between Alan Moore's Marvelman/Miracleman (which was, of course, a re-invention of an old Captain Marvel rip-off) and Moore's more recent, more soft-edged retro creations, to which Ordway has, appropriately enough, contributed some art.

I followed the ongoing series for the first few issues, and then irregularly for awhile. Ordway's scripts were great, as were his beautiful painted covers, but the Peter Krause/Mike Manley art turned me off. The last issue I bought was # 28 (with the cover of Mary Marvel fighting "Liquid Metal" -- nice "Terminator 2" homage) because Dick Giordano did both pencils and inks. Shortly afterward, I left comics altogether for several years.

I've just had a look at the Power of Shazam run at milehighcomics.com. Seems Giordano replaced Manley as inker just when I stopped reading the book. And it also says that Ordway wrote and penciled the final six issues, with Giordano inking. I'll have to look further into this.

Re: Image and Valiant...

Back in the day, I thought Image was pure evil. I've been told that they're much better these days, but I browsed through some of their books recently, and I'm not convinced.

Valiant seemed to be like a revival of early 80s Marvel; since I personally find early 80s Marvel to be by-and-large dull, I never got into Valiant.

It was likely that James Robinson and David Goyer had Sand in mind for the new JSA from the beginning, so spotlighting Sandy in JSA RETURNS was a good way to reintroduce the character.

SMT is Vertigo, so it can be an "alternate" Sandman if one wants, I guess. I thought Wagner was either making a few jokes about where Wes would end up costume and sidekick-wise and/or telling the readership that "his" Wes would stay in the gas mask. Wagner's stories were set early enough that there really isn't a continuity problem here.

I agree about Wagner's Sandman. While there may be some inconsistancies, there's enough room for his era to fold into the DCU version. And since then, they've incorporated that version into regular continuity.

The first couple of years of Valiant, up until Shooter left after Unity were bordering on awesome!! Magnus, Solar, Archer & Armstrong, all really well done, and beautiful artwork by folks like Barry Windsor-Smith!

Then Shooter got in the way of a some prospective buyers. He basically told them it was his way or the highway, so the buyers told the current backers, "we want the company, but only if he's not part of it...". So JS shot himself in the foot again!

After Shooter left, the whole line became virtually unreadable. I dropped them all, and with the exception of the Jurgens Solar issues (mentioned above) that was the last of my money that Valiant ever saw!

And wasn't THE GOLDEN AGE the 1990s? That was magnificent! And while not in continuity (only because the wimps in charge of DC at the time didn't have the ______ for it!!!), it laid some of the basis for the truly amazing Starman series that Robinson did next. (The whole Ted Knight nervous breakdown storyline...)

And since Starman and SMT have been mentioned many times in this thread, the 4 part story arc in Starman where Jack met Wesley and Dian was a lot of fun! (issues #20-23) And that adventure had ties to the four part "The Mist" storyline in SMT... ahhhh, good comics...

"Then Shooter got in the way of a some prospective buyers. He basically told them it was his way or the highway, so the buyers told the current backers, "we want the company, but only if he's not part of it...". So JS shot himself in the foot again!"


JS had developed such a TERRIBLE rep by then for his dictatorial attidude as Marvel's E.I.C., it was a genuine pleasure to see he still had it as a writer.

The part about him getting kicked out, and the company no longer being a viable force, was like history repeating itself. When Marvel finally beat DC in sales, Martin Goodman sold it to some corporation-- who had no knowledge or respect of what they were buying, and the people involved who had made it WORTH buying. When Jack Kirby's contract was up for renewal, their attitude was "Jack WHO?" and told him to sign the new contract or hit the road, leaving him NO place to bargain-- which is how he wound up at DC. I suspect Stan Lee may have had a minor nervous breakdown over this (his decisions shortly after weren't many of his best). In effect, the company those people wound up with was NOT the company it was when they BOUGHT it. (Corporate buyouts tend to make me just shake my head in disgust...)

Had Shooter's business partners not been in it PURELY for the money (and greed) they might not have SOLD Valiant, and it might have lasted a lot longer than it did.

Shooter's Valiant partners were venture capitalists, a subspecies of humanity long rumored to devour their own young.

Comics can't really deliver the return on investment they are looking for (typically over 30%+ a year) over the long term. It's no surprise they cashed out. Also no surprise given his personality it got ugly with JS and them. The VC shareholder agreements generally give them a near total control of management of the venture. So goodbye JS.

Are you sure Jim Shooter wasn't cheesed off about all those missing royalty checks which should have been owed him, when he wrote those ADVENTURE stories?

Somehow I don't think that had anything to do with him being forced out of a company he was running in 1991 LAM.

It also doesn't have anything to do with all the enemies he made during his tenure as EiC at Marvel. The fact that he's been fired by every comics company that he didn't own majority interest in tells you something about what he must be like to work with.

He got too big for his britches?

You just brought back so many memories to me. In my household, with my Dad and Uncle comics fans since 1958, Jack Kirby is sacrosanct. Before I even read one single comic I knew the history of Stan, Jack, DC, Marvel, and all the rest. That's a topic for a whole other thread, but the history of Stan and Jack after that debacle was a sad one. I'm sure Stan must have always felt terrible, and he had really no say in any of it once the corporate big wigs took over.

I remember when Kirby died, when i was about 12, Stan left a note for his memory in CBG 'From Asgard to the Negative Zone, it was a helluva ride. Thanks for everything Jack. -Stan'. I've never seen two grown men cry over comic books like that . Just felt like bringing that up for some reason...

I'd heard for years how during the 60's, Stan slowly did less of the writing, Kirby did more of the plotting, and by the mid-60's there began to be a breakdown in communication (there's a series of articles on in in TJKC magazine), as Kirby began plotting in new directions while Lee wanted to rein things back in to more "standard" work. And there was some big magazine article that downplayed Kirby's involvement in Marvel's success to the point that it pissed Kirby off. And Lee's head got apparently more swelled as the decade went on... And at one point Kirby got fed up with having ideas vetoed, rejected, DIVERTED, or virtually stolen away from him (the SILVER SURFER series with Lee & Buscema was NOTHING like what Kirby wanted it to be, apparently). And how Kirby told Lee at one point, "From now on, YOU write it." --at which point, FANTASTIC FOUR's quality plummeted-- around a year before Kirby left Marvel.

But it was reading Mark Evanier's intro to JIMMY OLSEN ADVENTURES (a reprint collection that actually looks BETTER than the original 1970's comics!!) that revealed the mess with the new owners not knowing or caring who Kirby was. Kirby's longtime friend, Carmine Infantino, then a head honcho at DC, made Jack an offer... he accepted, without even telling Stan or giving him a chance to make a counter-offer! One weekend Jack turned sent in his last pages for Marvel, then called Stan up on the phone to give him the news he was starting work for DC the next Monday. Stan must have been in SHOCK!!!


As an aside, I personally feel that every time a privately-owned company is bought out by a big conglomerate, it undermines the very fabric of American enterprise and society-- and when US companies are bought by FOREIGN companies, it's a DANGER to our entire way of life! (I do not believe I am exaggerating in the slightest here.)

Yeah it's clear that the rift between Stan and Jack lasted until the end (for JK anyway).

As for your aside, Americans should get used to foreigners owning your enterprises because the American consumerist culture, extending all the way to your government, is creating current account surpluses so big that in short time you'll be a net creditor nation (ie Foreigners will own more US assets than Americans own Foreign assets) for the first time in well over a century.

It was foreigners like Chris Claremont who, despite not being American-born, took on the X-MEN and contributed to their lasting popularity, Tamper Lad

What does that have to due with the current US Balance of Payments situation and it's long term implications for ownership of American corporations?

Your comment about Americans getting used to foreigners owning their enterprises. Claremont was British born, X-MEN being an American-owned enterprise in itself...Claremont stayed so long as writer, that the Americans got used to it - sort of.