Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter: It's Official

Well, I wouldn't say that. A lot of my favourite Legion stuff has happened since the Five Year Gap. And the future looks more bright than dark.

I'm totally surprised about what's happened here... just can't believe this slightly emotional discussion was reason enough for somebody to leave the bord and for others to have hurt feelings or whatever...

... compared to the flame wars that happened on Legion List back in the late 90s...

You guys are just way to "politically correct" - are feelings so easily hurt in the 21st century U.S.?

Superboy, I hope you stay cause I really appreciated all the inside information you were providing those last weeks. We did not have the same opinion about WHEN the "true" Legion died - but I really will miss your postings.

Well, I'm not going to comment on all the controversy, but this discussion, especially EDE's comments, have given me quite the AHA! moment. Nothing the rest of you haven't figured out a long time ago, I'm sure. Crises, namely universe-changing crises, are the real culprit here, and the underlying cause of that is the talents obsessive desire to have everything tied up in one neat little universal bow. What did Emerson say about a foolish consistency?

The need to internalize changes in editorial direction in the story (i.e., the universe/history changing crises), raises the stakes of natural changes in creative direction by creating multiple versions of the property in question. Ironic that that the Ur-Crisis, COIE, which was intended to eliminate the "confusing" multiverse, has instead spawned a regular sequence of different Supermans, Batmans, Wonder Womans, Hawkmans, and Legions, with each version having its own adherents. This divides and fragments the fan base and turns that base against itself. Instead of having different interpretations of the Legion, we have 2, 3 or more actual Legions, each with its die-hard defenders. Instead of arguing over whose art was better--Grell's, Cockrum's, Giffen's, Sherman's--or whose interpretation of Ultra Boy is better--Shooter's, Levitz's or Bierbaums'--we're arguing about which LEGION is better. They SHOULD all be one Legion, as Matthew E regularly evangelizes, seemingly on deaf ears sometimes.

This is why I am actually happy that Shooter is continuing the 3Boot. While it may not be everyone's favorite, Shooter has a chance to demonstrate that you can make a property what you want of it without saying to fans of the previous creators "YOUR Legion doesn't exist anymore, or has been rendered part of an alternate reality now destroyed by Supreme Omnipotent Villain X."

It's always about the mutants, isn't it?

No ones feelings were hurt. And if conducting myself in a polite manner and being respectful of other posters and their opinions is just practiced here in the U.S., then I'm proud to be an American. (Although I tend to believe they're universal human traits.) They are also happen to be the rules.

This wasn't a flame war, so it's apples and oranges. The people that post here care too much about the place to let flame wars ignite.

I never read the Shooter Legion. Is he the same guy that started Broadway Comics back in the 90's?

Yes.

The thing is...is the Superman from the 30s the same as the Superman from the 70s? Or 60s? Or heck 61 Superman the same as the 63? Probably not. I don't mind as much.

That is why I don't see this "New Earth" stuff as a big deal. They are streamlining history here and there? I think every creative team makes changes here and there, etc.

Major retcons as Wonder Woman not being around for years/JLA founder and Superboy not in the Legion are a big deal.

I don't even know what this thread is about any longer.

Some thoughts though.

Was there a way to have the original Crisis but give the Legion less of a raw deal? IMO yes.

It seems that is what Geoff is doing now. But Crisis did really hurt the Legion. Supergirl dying? Horrible.

As Superboy(poster) said. The low sales on Superman led to DC getting Byrne which led to him rebooting character. Did they need to cut ties with Legion? Heck no!

For the record, I've participated in a number of message boards including the DCMB. Never have I found a place more open and accepting of diverse opinions. That being said, we insist on respectful conversation. It is fine to challenge ideas and debate opinion but it is unacceptable to attack or insult anyone.

The moderators here (of which I am one) attempt to diffuse situations before they turn into flame wars and personal attacks, the type that is so common at many other boards. That is truly the founding principle of these boards. Here everyone should be able to voice an opinion without fear of being attacked, ridiculed, insulted or made to feel unwelcome.

We often will send private messages to individuals that may be close to crossing the line (or have already crossed it) rather than post a reprimand or warning in a thread. So don't assume that something like that is just ignored. If the situation is not remedied however, you can rest assured that more public actions will be taken.

That being said, the moderators for each forum are listed at the very top left of each forum main page, right under the Legion World logo. If you see something that you feel is inappropriate or feel as if you have been mistreated, please send one of us a private message. I can assure you that it will be handled quickly. We can not be everywhere at every moment and some situations do slip past us. If you don't see one of this forum's moderators online, PM any moderator that is. We cover for each other as needed.

Superboy, I hope you decide to stay. I have found this thread to be informative, inciteful, and entertaining and you have posted a great deal of information I had never been aware of in the past. I can assure you that there are many posters on LW that share your point of view.

As I recall, it was more like 60K... Cancel-ville, if it was anyone else in that era.

Cary Bates by that time carried no credibility. He was a 70s hack in an era where Miller, Byrne, Wolfman, Perez, Giffen and a few others were the "names." Even Denny O'Neil was a second-stringer by then, despite past glories.

Wolfman wanted to start over clean... I don't support that, but at least there would have been no pretense about continuing proior timelines. Giordano and Kahn were open to new ideas (to an extent), and gave the green light, but dragging their feet to all-out change (as suits are wont to do).

So aside from the influx of Marvel talent that disliked the Multiverse, the real fault was Kahn and Giordano for being too compromising - trying to mix some of the old and some of the new. The real end result was making DC continuity an oxymoron moreso than "military intelligence," an endless revisionist cycle that is essentially still going on.

That said, what's done truly is done.

I am curious if Shooter can jumpstart Threeboot. I'd love to see someone revive Reboot. And Johns' Lightning Legion may not be Preboot, but it's closer IMHO than Bates' Legion was, and it at least leaves the door open to "fixing."

With multiple Legions and a Multiverse, it's the best scenario we can realistically hope for - no one's gonna make it 1984 again.

Thanks. I liked that line of books. It satirized the Image books, brought a certain real world feel like Marvel, but had all the fun of DC.

I think that's the only Shooter work I've read.

And as I recall, Jeanette Kahn quickly became "persona non grata" in the eyes of the fans back then. Lots of people were calling for her head over the sweeping changes to existing continuity.

I sometimes think that the best solution for the competing-Legions problem is to have a comic book where the first page is devoted to as concise a synopsis of Legion continuity over the decades as is possible, and then you have a transition page with some kind of cosmic-looking event on it, and then we see:

the Time Institute. Which is suddenly a very crowded place, because all the members of the original (and/or Lightning Saga) Legion are there, and all of the members of the Legion as of End of an Era (including Catspaw, Computo and Dragonmage, but the other SW6ers will have been merged into their older counterparts), and the whole reboot Legion, and the threeboot Legion.

They all look at each other and say, "Wow. That was weird."

And it turns out that their respective timelines have merged, but without mapping anything together. So there's more than one Earth in Earth orbit, for instance. And there could very well be two or three or four of some characters! But that's okay. Everybody remembers their own histories; there's no thought that the universe was always like this. The cast of characters for the Legion title will be a bit unwieldy for a while until it can be whittled down in some nontraumatic way, but that could be fun itself.

Imagine 5YL Ultra Boy giving pointers to his reboot and threeboot counterparts!

And then things could move on from there.

[/b]

The thing is that I'm not even sure the question makes sense in that context (though, for the record, Siegel always maintained that the character he was writing in the 60s was the same as the one he'd created in the 30s). It only really becomes relevant once you have the idea of the DC Universe, of this integrated fictional continuity in which all of the events the company publishes are supposed to take place in a coherent fashion. It matters where you've got Superman involved in the latest epic storyline which is supposed to build off the events of the last epic storyline, which may be radically altered by the next epic storyline in such a way that only the most dedicated fans can understand the differences, and which you have to read x number of books to comprehend, etc.

Is the James Bond of the 60s the same character as the James Bond of today? Is the Hercules that joined the Argonauts the same guy who lost a drinking contest to Dionysius? Is the Jack that climbed the beanstalk the same guy who catches Death in his hunting bag? Is the Superman who fought Hitler the same as the Superman who performed missions for JFK? These questions are all on a par.

The problem with the "New Earth" Superman is that the basic feel of the character is still the post-Crisis Byrne version. It doesn't matter how many elements of the pre-Crisis "history" they "retcon" in, or how many pre-Crisis concepts they try to hammer into the proverbial round hole, it's still not the classic Superman. Contrast that with Morrison's All-Star version, for example, which has much more of the "feel" of a classic Superman story, even though he's borrowing elements from a bunch of different eras.

You know what I'm tired of being a mad Legion fan ,I wish DC could publish a Legion book or two that made all the Legion fans happy,Maybe with Jim Shooter on one title and Geoff Johns on another.

Hopefully thats the plan

Morrison's All Star version has the "feel" but it isn't classic Superman. But I agree with you. My point is we use that "feel" of a certain era to define the character. "Your" Superman vs. "My" Superman or Legion.

They all are Superman just like your Bond example. That was my point when I said DC says who Superman is. Sure we all think for ourselves and Superman is many different things to different people.

I think the New Earth stuff is trying to use the best from both worlds. Not everything pre-Crisis was hunky-dory. They didn't just do Crisis for fun.

Ohwell, I just think we are comparing different versions of characters even the pre-Crisis versions and everyone has their own idea of what pre-crisis was.

Oh, Lone Wolf, I fear that making all Legion fans happy is about as attainable a goal as achieving lasting peace in Iraq.

No joke!

CBR's got a new interview with Shooter here .

He mentions his favorite Legionnaires and a few teasers (Lydda fans may be happy), including who he sees as the core team (at the moment, but expect a few changes).

I remain excited by the future!!!

Finally, someone else names them in the correct order.

Um, didn't the solicitations already remove her from the title?

FWIW, Byrne says that he was willing to go either way, total reboot or make changes within the existing Superman continuity. He says it was editorial who insisted on the total reboot idea.

I corrected that for ya.

Amen brudda!!!

Night Girl! You pretty little Night Girl! Night Girl, I love you! Who would have thought such a minor character could send me into a celebratory dance of delight?

Seriously, it IS lame when you think about it: so far in the 3Boot (which I have enjoyed) NO tryouts, NO new Legionnaires except Mon-El (who's gone already), NO subs, NO Academy. These things are an essential part of the Legion. How could they have been ignored so long?