Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow Shooter off Legion?

Blow? Wow, strong words in here... Guesses, people? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My guess is this may be a troll. Hopefully, I am wrong and just jaded from too many trolls on other message boards. If not a troll, I apologize. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i promises that im not a troll, all i cant tell you is that some ppl are right about a few things
and that the news is going to make some ppl very happy, and others very mad...i was not happy when i herd the news</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, whatever decision is made, they can't please everyone because Legion has been so messed up in the past 15 years there's no way they can please both the older fans and the newer ones.

To be fair, there's apparently been some people un happy at DC that Shooter was offered the job in the first place. He might be a legendary Legion writer (and quite a legend in his own right), but he's made a lot of enemies in his carreer. Which is why "creative differences" wouldn't seem too surprising to me.

I also believe that the only reasonable return to "para-classic Legion" would have to do something with CoiE - probably taking everything before as canon (unfortunately, they will leave some things out that don't fit into their plans) and picking out some stuff from afterwards which is then added to the canon, like Sensor Girl for example.

This will alienate many AR fans and new fans alike. To me, it's way better than Archie Legion and Threeboot combined, even though I have to sacrifice my beloved 5YL to the Elsworld cosmos. But that's just my opinion: Better a para-classic Legion in full bloom than another all-new one or (shudder!!!) an amalgam version...

AS pity to see Shooter screwed, though...

Definitely agree on the Shooter Screw.. shouldn't be done to any decent creator (although I still hope it's just a rumor)...

From the point of view of the Company/Producer it was maybe a artistic/creative masterpiece but (foreseeable) a marketing mistake to get Shooter on the Legion.

Shooter is by now one of the "old daddies" with a chequered history in comics. A boon for old fans, but not really actively attractive for new readers... = dwindling, at best stable sales figures

On the other hand, at the same time put on hotshot Geoff Johns on the project, give it back its original tie with one of the most profiteable icons in your product line... = instant success.

Sooo - was Shooter set for failure from the beginning? Before fjm pencilled the first page?

Actually, I don't wanna know...makes me sad

And for the record - I don't think the Action Legion will/would have a long lasting success.
The Johns Formula would necessarily run out of new stories to tell.

I firmly believe that Shooter/Manapul - given enough time - might have pulled / may pull the Legion through to (modest) success

Is Cary Bates the new writer????

I totally agree with I-Man about the Shooter/Manapul team creating some great stories, given time.

The problem is with the constant retcons, reboots, do-overs, etc. DC needs to draw a starting line in the sand, then permit a creative team to go from there for at least a few years. Starting over takes at least that long just to get momentum up, and since it's been tried enough times already, and failed every time, it's obviously not the way to go.

I've never been a big fan of Waid's reboot, but it's here. Mr. Shooter has done a good job picking up the pieces and going forward. In a year's time I'm confident he would get the title to a point where it's HIS Legion and entertaining stories will flow naturally. Given the chance, of course.

PS - Where did "Is Cary Bates the new writer?" come from?

why?

I think because Cary Bates is writing again for Marvel.

I don't know, if Shooter is off the Legion (big IF) than it is reasonable to assume that is because the 3boot is going away and that Johns' Legion will be taking over.

In a way I'm conflicted over this and will probably have to wait until Lo3W is finished before I can tell if I'm happy or not.

Happy that Shooter might get screwed over: No
Happy that current arc probably won't get wrapped up: No
Happy that original legion is returning: Yes
Happy over some of the changes Johns has made: No

I'm starting to warm up to the 3boot and I'm really looking forward to some exciting stories. I feel that the Johns Legion will spend far more time tugging at the ole nostolgia heartstrings and telling SUPERMAN stories rather than giving us Legion stories and moving the Legion forward.

I want the 50th anniversary year to be a celebration of the legion, not tearing down (again) something to replace it with something else.

Also, I'll go out and say it, I don't think Johns is going to give us the 'original' Legion, he is going to give us the 'original' Legion with some twists, just like we've been getting since the Pocket Universe hit.

if i had to guess, i'd say that nobody foresaw the overwhelming response to John's Lightning Saga. when that happened and the net was swarming with positive screams of "They're back! the original Legion magic is back!", they planned a sequel in Action.
DC editorial, still sticking by the vow to Waid that his newboot would be this earth's legion, asked for tweaking of the costumes for Johns' Legion so as not to confuse readers.
And proceeded with 50 anniversary plans for Shooter to take on the current series. Again the Johns' legion appearance in Action sold really well, and DC editorial saw a trend. the legion was stronger with Superman/boy. they gave the go ahead for adding Legion of 3 worlds into Final Crisis with one legion continuing into it's own book. this inadvertently screwed Shooter who was told his job was to revive the franchise using Waid's boot.
Francis? can you comment on any of this?

I feel exactly what Steph said:
"... that the Johns Legion will spend far more time tugging at the ole nostolgia heartstrings and telling SUPERMAN stories rather than giving us Legion stories and moving the Legion forward."

Either that or some "Heirs/sons/legacy of the Legion" stuff.

Which would not be bad in itself... but not what I would like if I could have ... 3boot, for example

Cary Bates has said to Newsarama he will be writing for DC in late 2009 a project related to some previous characters he was heavily associated with. Since he basically wrote most of DC books, it can be LSH as any other book. Also, it is in about a year and a half. More like a project than a monthly assignment.

Jesus effin' Hockeysticks--I actually laughed out loud at the Cary Bates reference. Then I go further down the thread and its SERIOUS?!? Cary Bates?

Bates might be better suited for the Mini-Squadron of Super-Heroes. If he comes onboard, he needs to be teamed with a Dave Cockrum circa 1970s-level artist.

I'll defend Johns' ACTION arc as being just as much about the Legion as it was about Supes. The whole purpose of it was to re-establish Supes into LSH continuity and re-establish his ties with the team.

I was always against the re-intro of Superman into the LSH mythos, wanting the team to stand on its own. After the ACTIOn arc, I'm sold. Tie it into the Superman mythos as it always was meant to be. Both franchises are the better for it.

I'd prefer that we not put creators on the spot. If he wants to comment then that's fine, but let's refrain from calling him out on it.

Agree on all three of these comments 100%.

I think defend Shooter and Manapul's LSH over Johns'. I don't know exactly how to explain, but Action Legion is more about Superman and less about the LSH. And that bugs me. Brainy's portrait in particular seems very off-character.
Johns' does the same in GL, which seems to be more about Hal Jordan and his companions than GLC as a whole. Yes, he brought the concept back, but Dave Gibbons handled it better than Johns' as a team concept.
And Superman-Prime is a boring character.

I 100% agree that Super-Prime sucks colossal Earthquake beast ass.

I can't complain about John's Action Legion. There's too many people and relationships and history that I care too much about (superdork!) to have any problem with the concepts. Superman with fond memories of his youthful adventures? Who-hooo! Dawnstar? Karate Kid? Sensor Girl? I'm sold. I'm just not sure that it's the Legion that would be most successful, or least confusing.

so far it doesn't look like johns stuck his legion to nostalgia. i think the action comics arc took what good there was in the levitz legion and improved it with a modern sci-fi feel. i felt like reading something new, not something old. and it didn't feel like it was a superman-centric story, especially considering it was published in action comics.
anyway, i hate so much 3boot that i'd like best the legion series to end for good instead of continuing the way it is now. and i'm not blaming shooter's writing, which i like. but the characters are too far from me.

Very few complaints about John's Legion either. Its not perfect and there are some minor thinks I don't love, but hey, no era in Legion history has ever been 100% perfet to me, including Levitz and the Shooter Silver Age, which come closest (for me).

I don't feel the same about the threeboot unfortunately. That being said, shady corporate politics leave a bad taste in my mouth always.

What people here need to realize is that in order for a comic book to be successful, it has to have a hook other than the creative team. If people are only reading the Legion to see what Jim Shooter is doing with it, well, what happens when the day comes when he's not writing it anymore? (And I mean that in the sense that all runs eventually come to an end, not in reference to any current rumors). That's really short term thinking.

People originally bought the three-boot for Waid and Kitson. People are buying it now for Shooter. If a less talented team gets its hands on it, people are less likely to buy it. In order for a franchise to be healthy, it has to feature characters that people want to read about regardless of the creative team. The Action Comics Legion sold 55,000 copies on average, whereas the current Legion sells about 30,000. If DC is planning to choose one over the other, can anyone blame them if they choose the one which sold the best?

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Bates to return to the Legion...even though it was DC's top seller when he wrote it.

#1. He didn't particularly like writing it because it had such a large cast.

#2. The Bates Cockrum Legion was pretty much Cockrum's baby. At least according to Cary.


That said...it's pretty cool that Cary Bates is coming back to comics. When Cary was cut loose from the strict editorial constraints of Superman he was a pretty creative writer and extremely under-rated in the characterization department....although I don't think he ever particularly sought to be cut loose from those constraints.


All that said...the Legion was DC's top selling book when he wrote it and you never know for sure what DC is up too, except that they are definitely trying to fix the Legion now...so he just might be coming back.


And BTW...if anyone could come up with a story that fixes every continuity error in the Legion...it'd be Cary Bates. He's extremely inventive.


IIRC, he had a proposal to completely revamp Superman without rebooting the character...I believe Alan Moore and George Perez were going to be part of the creative team at the time he made his proposal, but then Alan Moore started to have issues with DC and their desire to label his books for mature audiences and DC also elected to go with Byrne and his name.


As I am sure anyone that has read Moore's Superman would agree...that was definitely our loss.

Well said...


IF Jim Shooter couldn't sell the Supermanless Legion...I don't think anyone can. And the interest was there when he took over the title..but it didn't hold the audience in signifigant numbers...

The same problesm Giffen, Waid, Simone, DNA and every Post Crisis Legion creator have had...


The same problem Waid and Kitson were having...which was only staved off by adding Supergirl to the title.


Those folks aren't bad writers...that's not why the PC Legions have failed...they've failed becuase conceptually they were more or less an X-Men Ripoff once Superman is removed from the concept. And that's about the interest level they generated to the greater comics buying audience.


And the Action Legion sales figures...while not overwhelming in and of themselves(unless compared to sales of the Post Crisis Legions), the way they held their audience was incredible given the current trends of comics...they were even surprising for a Geoff Johns Title...

And that's the Legion does at it's best...it holds it audience, for years at a time.