Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Race and the Legion...

I do prefer if race has nothing to do with powers, so Tyroc, Invisible Jacques, Kid Quantum, etc. were at least a breath of fresh air, in that they didn't have anything to do with jungles, animal-powers or voodoo. Sonic powers, invisibility and time manipulation, all neat powers, and not associated with 'color.'

Karate Kid, the half-asian martial artist, is a bit stereotyped, but doesn't seem caricaturized about it.

Dawnstar, on the other hand, ugh. Me heap good tracker, kemo sabe, watch me press my head to the ground to tell you how many horsemen are coming! (Not that Marvel was any better. Thunderbird, Red Wolf, Shaman, etc. I can't tell whether they are trying to make deliberately offensive caricatures of Native Americans, or just trying to offer the Village People some alternative band-members...)

I have to agree with Blockade Boy.The reason was Sales and the attitude of that time. It was the late fifties early sixties when the legion was born, I doubt anyone was thinking we should add a minority hero to the group.(The Shooter/Ferro lad info was a surprise to me I'm sad it never got to see the light of day.) So I would never expect the founders or anyone from the Silver age to be black.

But in order to attract new readers the legion should be a diverse book. Growing up in the 70's I had to justify to my father why I was spending my allowance on comics that did not have any blacks in it. My excuse ( I was ten at the time)
was I enjoyed the stories, but you would be surprised how many of my friends prefered Marvel over DC becasue blacks were in the books more.

I agree the Rebooot was as good example of diversity ( Snekie being the worst example)
but if the PTB really want to attract new readers there are a lot of ways to do it And lets start with no more Recons, reboots, Crisises, Hypertime, Superboy prime punches, and just get back to great story telling.

Actually, Jacques is kind of on the borderline, since it's kind of hard not to take his name as reference to Ellison's The Invisible Man, a novel about black people being "invisible" in our society. But generally I agree with your point.

I could accept that scenario to a degree but then evolution would have to jumpstart into high gear to explain how those worlds' populations got their eventual natural powers.

Still considering that, I would think the UP would be expanding their borders and initating contact with other alien civilizations. Maybe I have the wrong idea but I do see the UP as analogous to ST's Federation. Thus, I still say more alien-type beings would better reflect the Legion and the time and society they live in.

Is Karate Kid half-Asian? If he is, then that is real sterotyping now. I remember one of George Takei's lines from Futurama in which he said,(paraphrase) "Just because I'm Asian, you automatically assume that I know karate."

Well since hispanics are not a race any member of the legion could've been hispanic.

Well in the case of Karate Kid I think it's better to make him asian. Mostly cause the codename already is asian (karate).

The reason I think it's ok is because the oppossite mainly in pulp heroes. the master of kungfu was always a blonde hair/blue eyed guy. The master of the jungle tarzan? white guy. Inca master? Blond european that learned all the secrets from a shaman. You get the idea.

Karate is a asian term. I rather have an asian be the karate kid rather than another example of the white man mastering another culture.

If it was the Samurai Kid or Sumo Lad I would prefer a japanese character. Lets avoid characters with these codenames in the future.

And yet I'd rather see him half-Japanese than have it be something like 'The Last Samurai' with Big Nose Cruise. Or any of those other appalling movies about white people becoming the best kickboxer / ninja / whatever and kicking as on all those asian losers who've forgotten their cultural heritage. 'Cause that got old back in the '70s.

If somebody is going to be a Cherokee shaman, tapping the power of the Raven Mocker, I'd rather it be someone with Cherokee heritage (or, paradoxically, a *total* alien, like Tellus, or something, to completely throw the stereotype on its ear!), rather than have native american cultural traditions embodied in some Great White Hope.

In fact, I'm loving the alien angle. The reactions from the various human practitioners of whatever culture it is aping could be amusing.

"Uh, mister tentacly squid / antelope / pineapple thing? I get that you're an expert on qabala and memorized the Torah and everything, but you *do* realize that you can't actually be Jewish, no matter how orthodox you act? Those dangly head tentacles? They're not scalplocks... You're not fooling anyone, sir."

Making Val half-Japanese also kind of helps to explain why he'd name himself Karate Kid, when he supposedly is a master of all known forms of combat.

But, yeah, while it's bad to assume all Asians know Karate, if you've got a character whose schtick is martial arts, I'd rather they be Asian than white.

I'd also like to see Asian characters from places other than East Asia, however. Asia's a really big continent, there's a whole lot more to it than China and Japan, but so often it seems like those are all we get to see in comics. A character from Turkmenestan or somewhere would be really cool.

Set, you've often commented that you find Dawnstar, the Amerind tracker, to be an offensive stereotype. But I've always thought of her as being someone who has taken skills from her heritage to the stars, into the future. Her costume is meant to honor her culture. She does not speak with an embarrassing Hollywood accent. So my question is, where is the line between stereotyping and homeage?

(Remember, I'm a Dawnstar fan. I think her powers are fascinating. I think she's beautiful. I think her sort of aloof personality was a nice change from all the other girl Legionnaires at the time. I like what we've seen of Starhaven. I like her dilemma with the body-less Wildfire.)

EDE, I think in the Legion broad strokes are needed. Just refer to them as Asian maybe? This is where Jacques may have run into trouble. He could've just been a black new Legionnaire. France didn't need to be mentioned at all and thus we could've avoided all the bad french.

In other words no specific countries. They are from Earth. Maybe a region. Middle Eastern Legion member rather than an Iraqi Legion member. Even then I don't think they should delve into where they are from. Just can lead to problems. Maybe their names will indicate it. Teleportation Lad aka Amir Ibn Mohammed. He may or may not be from the middle east but we get the idea.

Jacques was from the Ivory Coast rather than France, actually. I think the idea that that particular region of the world maintained its French language/identity was kind of cool touch, even if I don't think the way it was used was all that great. So I guess I kind of like finding out what's happened in particular regions of the world in the 30th century (like the Saharan desert being turned into fertile farmland), and so having characters specifically from those regions kind of facilitates that. Of course, there really aren't particular countries the way we know them today in the Legion's time, but I don't mind people still having a sense of cultural identity.

Speaking of race and the Legion - does anyone think that they might've changed Bouncing Boy's race in the cartoon?

He's coloured an almost greyish colour - a noticeable difference to the pinkish hue of the other Caucasian Legionnaires. In comics "grey" characters are usually meant to represent people of East Indian or Hispanic background - I wonder if the writers have purposely done this to inject some racial diversity into the otherwise all-white cast of the toon?

If they have done so, I've gotta say I don't mind it - Chuck could very easily have been from a Hispanic/Latino background in the comics and so to emphasise such in the cartoon is an example of a good way of changing a character's race without changing their visual too drastically. (Unlike threeboot Star Boy.)

I think that this would be a terrible idea. For one thing, there isn't enough diversity in the Legion as it is. And for another, they were very distinct characters in terms of temperment and origin. Accordingly, the suggestion is even somewhat offensive because it essentially says, "Look, all black people are the same and therefore interchangable," when they definitely are not.

Not convinced? Then think about this: how would you feel if someone said: just retcon the Phantom Girl character with the Triplicate Girl's powers and be done with it?

Right on, Sketch Lad! I'm a Cree man, and I agree with everything you said. Mind you, that's not to say that others are wrong to feel otherwise; I just happen not to see things the same way.

I imagined today an Affirmative Action episode of the animated cartoon.

Lightning Lad: Okay, whose autobotic American?

*Brainiac raises his hand*

Lightning Lad: Okay, we need an alien. Superman qualifies but barely.

Superman: I agree. I don't want to be the token alien.

Lightning Lad: Okay, anyone Flamboyant?

*Color Kid raises his hand, Porcupine Pete coughs and raises his hand*

Lightning Lad: I don't see your hand up Elemental Lad, you're not helping anyone by being in denial.

At this point, you've lost me. Accent? Was she in a previous cartoon that I've missed?

I think Jacques was the only one actually lettered in the comic as having an accent, and, given that the entire team speaks something other than English as their native language, it was just a laughable act of stupidity. It's not like Garth has a thick Winathian brogue, or Rokk has a gravely Braalian accent, or Jo belts out the Rimborian gutter-speak, after all!

Somewhere farther away from a woman who wears buckskins with the dangly fringes and acts like the 'noble savage.'

Like darn near every other native american portrayal in the comic books, she's defined by her culture. As pointed out upthread, Kid Quantum II is presumably of African descent (by way of Xanthu), but she's not dressed up like a Moari, and her powers don't involve anything stereotypical like athleticism or chucking spears. How is Dawnstar being a tracker, like the Legion's own Tonto, any less a stereotype?

Even her name, 'Dawnstar.' Yeah, *some* native americans still use that sort of name, but most have first and last names these days, and the first name is more likely to be John or Sarah than Runningdeer or Greatfire. She could even have an actual native american name, like Arawanah (a very pretty sounding name from someone I went to school with), and not a couple english words slammed together like Dawnstar. How hard would it have been to check a phone book and find a native name, instead of stringing together english words to sound vaguely 'indian?'

Checking stuff like that is even easier today. I can do a search and click a link, and BAM, there's the tribal council of the Cherokee nation, the one tribe that actually has their own alphabet and would be most likely to use their own native words as names. John, Don, Nick, Mary. The usual suspects. A notable lack of Greybirds and Mistwolves.

'Dawnstar' might even make sense, for a spacefaring people deliberately trying to reach back to the ways of the past, assuming that they've completely forgotten their native language.

But Mistwolf? Greybird? How many of these sorts of critters do you tend to run into in deep space? Wouldn't Sunjumper or Nighteyes be more appropriate, things that refer to the space they spend their lives flying around in?

Would you name your kid after something from the distant past that you've never seen and never will? "Yes, this is my son, GreyAnkylosaur, and his sister, RunningDeinonychus. What? No, no reason. I just wanted a traditional sounding name, so I picked earth animals out of a book."

To me, she's as cliched as El Dorado, from the Super Friends.

I'm still confused about her powers. She's got a tracking sense. She's got white feathery wings that let her fly at faster-than-light speeds in space. She's got some sort of environmental adaptation that also allows her to survive in space. And I've fairly recently read that she's invulnerable, which is news to me (and isn't mentioned in her Wiki bio), but makes sense, since she couldn't be flying at lightspeed without it anyway (without pulling a Lazon and turning into energy, or pulling a Flash and surrounding herself with a protective field of 'speed-force').

When all these exact same powers were combined to make the character of Shikari, they flowed together. But on Dawnstar, it felt like, 'oh yeah, and she can do this, too!'

No argument there. She and Shady are my two favorite Legion women for sheer graceful beauty!

I like that she was serious, even, at times, a bit ruthless, but the 'aloof' thing came off as the standard native american stereotype.

I grew up shuttled between reservations (Arizona and Oklahoma, mostly), and so I've always been annoyed by white writers portraying native americans as all in touch with the land and aloof and whatnot, when most of my friends were laughing pranksters and rabble-rousers and all-around fun people who liked to dance and party. Some cared about their heritage, and we'd go to the festivals, others were more interested in being artists or whatever.

Dawnstar might stand off, arms folded, looking vaguely put out at (or confused by) a social occasion, but that's a freaky Hollywood stereotype that has nothing to do with the sort of people I grew up around. The whole 'confused savage stands apart' thing just didn't apply to them.

I didn't see much of the Starhaven stuff. I remember when she was introduced, she was supposed to be a mutant, and her powers unique, but then later her whole family (and possibly all of Starhaven, I wasn't clear on that) seemed to have wings and be able to travel through space, so I lost track of which powers were special and which ones were racial / gene-mod.

I did love her relationship with Wildfire, 'though. It was very Beauty and the Beast. Apart from her appearance, the best thing about her.

Up until Dawnstars people turned out to be into arranged marriages and the whole 'primitive culture' stereotype reared it's ugly head again.

Note, that as someone growing up immersed in that sort of thing, I was initially *stoked* to see a native american superhero. But I got annoyed every time she opened her mouth, since she didn't sound right. She sounded like she was a diversity token, and not an actual character. Even worse, she was a *generic* 'indian,' of no specific tribe, meaning that any cultural details about her were just completely pulled out of someone's butt.

The more we learned about Dawnstar, the more it felt to me that Grell and Levitz had never even met a native american. [Bear in mind, this is all just my opinion. For all I know Grell & Levitz could *be* native american, in which case, gosh, won't I look silly! It's just my impression.]

The group definitely needs more diversity - we're all agreed on that! I tend to agree with the previous posters who said the reboot had the best approach to it, introducing a morew diverse cast - gates, Monstress, Kid Quantim, XS etc. Lets hope that the next writer takes this onboard and starts introducing some fascinatingly diverse characters. If they want to bring back Dawnstar at least lets hope they're clear on the culture she's from and let the reader know why she is apparently a stereotype - surely there's nothing wrong with a planet being settled by a spexcific race or political movement or religious body who want to keep their traditions alive so become 'set in their ways' is there? There's enough people here in the 21st century who don't want their culture to be eroded by rampant homogenisation that it's totally understandable that in the future people will be the same - and have the space to do it!

Yeah that's a new slippery slope these days. With the introduction of things like Euro many are fighting to keep their distinct cultures.

IMO, in the Legion that should be ignored. Homogensation on Earth is ok by me in DC 31st century. Other planets? No. It would be fun to see an alien member have an accent much like Jacques did. As I said before I think the Legion should avoid having their earth members be from a specific place. Keep that vague. Focus on the alien cultures more IMO. Sure have more diversity but lets not say if they are from the Ivory Coast, South Africa, Austrailia, etc.

I believe you are referring to Ze Tongue.

And what about Computo and Catspaw?
I like those female afroamerican legionnaires, but why the writers has to kill the youngs Val, Jeckie and Reep to introducing with Drangonmage...
And I don't like the current Star Boy, I think his name is James Culumm not Thom Kallor.
And for another part if Bart Allen is the current Flash, his cousin Jenni must exist in some place.
The perfect afroamericans legionnaires are :

Ferro Lad
Tyroc
Invisible Kid II (But with anothers powers)
Computo
Catspaw
XS
And for Kid Quantum, James is good for me.
Jazmin never like me, because I'm a big fan of the original platinum blonde Quantum Queen.

EE, good points about Computo and Catspaw. With Timberwolf around not sure how well Catspaw fits in but Computo certainly.

Set,
Thank you for the response. I'll need to get back to this thread to give further, more in-depth discussion.

But, I do want to mention that I said that Dawnstar did NOT speak with a lame Hollywood Indian accent. No "heap big flying wagon" speak. That's a good thing....

That's a good point along with what Set and EDE mentioned. For some reason, it just never occurred to me that Val could be Asian or half-Asian. I have no problem with that, but as someone mentioned before, the art has been quite vague in racial depictions over the years.

As for any regional homes on Earth, I would find it acceptable in using just broad locations. For instance, so-and-so is from North America or she is from Australia. You might could use countries but nothing more specific than that I would think.

It would fail to bother me.

And my suggestion isn't as bigoted as you would like to make it out to be. Lyle and Jacques both have a fanbase, and it would be a shame to lose one of them because of overlapping powers. Tyroc, meanwhile, is an embarrasment as a character, but he has an intersting power set.

But if it makes you happy, substitute Tellus or any of the other not-shown characters for Tyroc in my statement above.

I think that in the past, one of the problems writers of LSH have had when they have tried to bring racial diversify to the cast has been that those writers don’t have an intimate or (as Set and others have pointed out) in some cases even a passing knowledge of the people they are trying to write about. I personally got so tired of the ‘angry black man who lives in the ghetto so he can teach his people’ character in comics that it was not funny. But I also came to realize that another problem that writers have in portraying characters of a race different than their own is that this is a commercial product after all. So they dumb down the characterizations to stereotypes in hopes of appealing to what they perceive to be the broadest audience. I once heard that sci-fi readers don’t buy books with a black character on the cover but will buy books in droves if there is some weird looking alien creature on the cover. So if that’s the case, real subtle characterization may not be commercially viable in the minds of comic book publishers. Name a character Wyatt Wingfoot and right off the bat just about everybody knows that he is American Indian. Name a character Pie Face and well you get the picture. I’m not saying that its right, I’m just saying. I thought that Icon was a fascinating premise for a black superhero, but whatever happened to that book? Do any of you know about Icon at all? Will DC ever bring him back, or Rocket or any of the Milestone characters?

It may have only been since Spawn first came out that every new black superhero wasn’t some cliché. Heck, look at how cliché most of the female characters in LSH are. My answer to the question of diversity would be a writer, artist and editor’s nightmare. I say get rid of the membership limit, then you can add all kinds of new members (powered only please, none of this hippy/commune/youth movement stuff) but focus on a few characters’ adventures per story arc. That way you can spread the LSH adventures all over the universe at once and you can tell limitless types of stories, focusing on a wider variety of characters and sub-units within the team structure (and each sub-unit can star Superman and/or Wolverine). You could throw so much information at the fandom that they would all be giddy from continuity overload. Not just in the name of diversity but in the name of the legion in the Legion of Super Heroes.