Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! It just feels wrong...

Characters who are glimpsed in passing. Characters appearing in one panel or even as a joke in the mail replies. Characters being used as plot devices or page filler or the vessels of some message from the Writer.

Does anyone else feel a little cheated in this Threeboot? Dynamic, facinating characters squandered or just plain ignored? Does anyone else really not like where this reboot is going? Anyone else think this is just the tip of a very large iceberg?

Anyone else hoping, just maybe, to get the Legion from before the boot back?

Sorry, just had to get it off my chest. That whole 'Reflecto' bit in 14 really bothered me (for the life of me, I can't put my finger on why...) and I just had to finally post my feelings on this Threeboot...

*ding*

(won't happen tho )

Actually, the big element of concern I had with the "Reflecto" scene was that it smacked too much of the previous version of the team. The previous incarnation had ten years of wasting characters with the "Let's use Starfinger just to have a new version of Starfinger" or "Hey, I know, let's make Matter-Eater Lad a chef; that'll be funny!" formula.

And I don't think anything would annoy me more than having to read a title featuring Sneckie again.

Unless Lori Morning was in it.

Speaking of the brat, who's gonna be the next Time Trapper if he/she ever resurfaces?

John Byrne.

What I feel cheated out of is the Adult Legion. We got this excellent older Legion after the Five Year Gap where people's lives had moved on. Moopsball, Royal perogatives, military tours of duty, corporate intrigue, children, politics and lots and lots of barely comprehensible sub plots. I thought it was a wonderful ride all the way up to Zero Hour.

I loved seeing "My" Legion grow up and take on the next level of life while nurturing yet another "generation" of young Legionnaires. I'd still be buying THAT book if I only could.

Whatever ill feelings the 5YL run might have festered, it did come up with a few logical scenarios which had slipped through the cracks of continuity in times past:

1) Lightning Lad WAS killed by Zaryan the Conqueror, he was never brought back to life - it was rhe first Proty who "lived" on and experienced the dramas that Garth went through: losing an arm from battling the Super Moby Dick of Space, marrying the woman of "its" dreams (Saturn Girl), simulating a "nervous breakdown" after discovering that Imra and T-Wolf had possibly "bonded".

But there is the matter of how Proty I was able to approximate Garth's lightning powers, how "it" and Imra were able to have children and why on earth was Garridan chosen to become Validus when he and Graym had possible Protean genes in their make-up?

2. Shvaughn becomes a man.

One of the more outrageous plot-lines of the series in order to validate Element Lad's "closeted" outlook. It advocates the use of a hormone-altering drug to change Shvaughn's physiognomy...and to what end? Jan still ended up like an emotionally-bereft dunderhead, awkwardly trying to cope with Sean and his feelings towards him.

3. The confusion behind the SW6 clones and the "real" Legion.

There was confusion as to the true origins of this teenaged "batch" and even more after the destruction of the Karate Kid, Princess Projectra and Chameleon Boy. All of their counterparts were dispatched mysteriously (by the Time Trapper?) except for Reep who would become an adult advisor to the young Legion.

4. The destruction of Earth

Powerful, shocking and utterly dramatic - too bad the rest of the Legion's universe was to follow suit during the events of ZERO HOUR. Again due to the mechanations of the Time Trapper...

I guess the dude just never lets anybody have a happy ending...

The original Legion reboot was the biggest mistake DC ever made, with the possible exception of the elimination of the multiverse. Whatever mistakes were made during the 5YG stories, there was nothing that couldn't be fixed, and plenty of great stuff that was lost when the reboot occurred.

All of which massively sets it apart from the post-Zero Hour...

I liked Matter Eater Lad as a chef. It was his best role ever.

I do feel a bit cheated seeing glimpses of some of my fave characters.

As for the original Legion/adult Legion, etc. I would love to see a Legion book begin "One year has passed since the Magic Wars..."

The 'reflecto' character who appeared last issue was only called that in passing by people watching, he didn't actually call himself that. An offical 'Reflecto' could be introduced later and this small incident ignored.

As for the appearance of Polar Boy in the letter page. I'm surprised there hasn't been more outrage about that in a 'you wasted the reintroduction of my favourite character as a joke' fashion, as we all *know* how passionate we Legion fans get about our characters.

As far as I can tell the letters pages are out of continuity or at any rate, shouldn't be taken too seriously. (Notice how the characters 'break the fourth wall' all the time in the letters pages. That's a clue that they aren't strictly in continuity.) Therefore Polar Boy can appear 'officially' at any point in the future and it will be as if his small letters page appearance never happened.

I do think that they relied a little too much on the 'retell old story with a twist' technique in the reboot, and it became an albatross, but I did think it was rather interesting at least at first. And I loved seeing what new characters would be introduced and how their new selves would compare with the old.

I wish they would hurry up and reintroduce more old characters! I think they are holding off on it because of the perception that they relied too much on the old last time. But I hope that they don't hold off on it completely! In moderation I enjoy that.

I have a feeling Bouncing Boy may be a staple of the letters page but not actually appear in the title as a regular character.

For the first several issues of the reboot, I actually didn't understand that it was a reboot. I kept waiting for the "actual Legion" to arrive. Then, they finally published a letters page from the editor saying something like "Uh...hi there!" I had no idea that the original Legion continuity was not coming back. Once the idea sunk in, I mourned and moved on, but as we're constantly being reminded, those old stories live on...somewhere...and to this day I find myself looking back on that Legion as my Legion.

I did accept the postboot Legion, though. I patiently went through all the rebooted versions of characters and stories. I was a fan of Jeff Moy's artwork. That helped a lot. I was an instant fan of DnAnCoipel and they got even better and better, then they started losing steam and left, too. I wasn't really all that heartbroken about the end of that Legion era.

Now that we're into this third-boot, I'm used to being patient with my Legion comics. The Lemnos storyline went on WAY too long IMO, but Barry's art has been fantastic, making it all worthwhile. I'm not sad about the death of Dream Girl, in fact, I'm in denial about it. I'm not bothered by the Polar Boy or Reflecto thing. I'm used to stuff like that happening. I'm looking forward to more Legion than ever now that the animated series is being made. The merchandise and companion comic series should be fun to collect. I say this is a great time to be a Legion fan!

The great thing about THIS message board is how intellegent, insightful, and caring its posters are. And we know Kitson cares enough to pay attention to what we're saying here. I'm grateful and encouraged that we have a voice among TPTB.

I think its really a problem that essentially Legion has become too damn large.

Let's be honest, they have an entire freaking DCU and fans want their Azteks and Captain Atoms while there's only real room for Batman and Superman plus a few others.

The size of the team, confusing continuity, etc., are famous excuses non-fans give to ignore the LSH. I think the real reason most of them lack interest is simply because the Legion is irrelevant to the DCU -- it's neither directly tied to mainstream events/characters nor does it have an impact on them. Plus, it's viewed by some as a private fanclub for pre-Crisis nostalgiaphiles (and there's probably something to that).

The creators are bargaining that Supergirl will change the perception of irrelevancy, but I think something more is needed -- like the Legion setting up an outpost in the 21st century and/or a Legionnaire (Karate Kid or Cosmic Boy would be my choices) becoming a member of the JLA, Titans, Outsiders or whatever. If Booster can operate in the past, why can't a Legionnaire or two?

Apart from its isolation, the only other thing I see as "wrong" is that after 14 issues we're still in the dark about how this incarnation of the LSH became the future of the post-IC DCU, and what (if any) relationship it has to previous versions of the team. So far, a partial explanation for the latter appears to be that the pre-Crisis past is comic-book mythology. I'm not optimistic about getting straight answers until OYL is over, though.

While Bouncing Boy and Matter Eater Lad remain in limbo, I have pretty high hopes for Mon-El ("possibly" in 52, said Waid) and Wildfire (whom he keeps mentioning). I can think of few other characters, arguably Dawnstar, who'd make a difference to anyone but a tiny cadre of devotees.

Otherwise, as I've said before, I consider this Legion virtually the same LSH I started reading about 40+ years ago so personally I have little reason to mourn the past (the current, unappealing portrayals of Element Lad and Triplicate Girl being exceptions). The main premise seems to be realigning itself with the original one now that they're officially "sanctioned" by the United Planets. For this reason (and the arrival of Supergirl) I suspect the second year of the LSH will seem a bit more familiar to older readers, and possibly also less "wrong".

I sure hope so...

I could not agree more, Eryk. I still don't think DC gets the idea - continuity exists to serve good storytelling, not the other way around.

I also find it interesting - all of the reboots are based on the original Legion. They seem to be trying to recapture what they got rid of, without actually bringing the original Legion back. If DC said they were just going to ignore everything Legion since 1990, and pick up from the end of the Magic Wars, I would be the first in line to get the next issue.

The richness of the Legion's history was an enormous asset - one they chose to borrow from for other incarnations, rather than keep building upon. Such a shame. I have not felt like I was reading MY Legion since 1990.

I have always believed the Legion was unique in the DC universe Because of its number of members. To me, it always worked best when it had fresh stories about a handful of Legionnaires at a time. These characters could rotate, so different combinations would interact, and no one Legionnaire would be tired out. Cary Bates and Paul Levitz did it best, although admittedly some characters got more exposure than others.

Still, I am patient enough to want to see a variety of new stories with a variety of a handful of Legionnaires from a very large cast - 30-50 Legionnaires. We should be able to see any particular Legionnaire at least once every 3 or four issues, with a 30 page title.

I think what really bothers me is that I don't really buy the notion that "relevancy", a notion which has really only taken on importance for DC since the first Crisis, is really a virtue. I think the idea that every title not only has to be set in a single, interconnected universe, but that it has to constantly assert its importance and impact by crossing over other titles has been extremely damaging to the industry, particularly books like the Legion that don't lend themselves to fitting into that model.

Why did Proty/Garth have to "simulate" a nervous breakdown? You don't think he was capable of a real one?

Proty/Garth had lightning powers because he was Proty's mind in Garth's body, which was altered physically to generate lightning. The children didn't inherit Proty's shapeshifting or telepathic powers because Proty no longer had them. Garth was not telepathic nor could he change shape, therefore he had no shapeshifting/telepathic genes to pass on. It was only Proty's consciousness driving Garth's body, not Proty disguised as Garth.

No actually, the problem is that fans aren't fans of the Legion of Superheroes is what I'm trying to say. Whether you believe me or not is up to you.

Fans aren't fans of teams. At least largely.

Fans are fans of characters IN teams. You can satisfy the Saturn Girl, the Cosmic Boy, the Lightning Lad but can you satisfy the Light Lass and the Shadow Lass?

Argue with me all you want but I stand by my decision that the fanbase is too diverse for one book to sustain. You have to stick with ONE team if you want to keep even a portion of it.

I agree. Although I have tried to find the good in every other incarnation.

As for the current one, while I may not agree with every plot and character development, I am reassured by the fact that the book is in the hands of an artist and co-plotter who is both a major talent and a fan of the book. Besides, he promised us that we still have a very, very interesting ride ahead of us.

Beyond this, I also try to keep in mind that a book can't be static, and that the Legion's fans have many different preferences. So, increasingly, I try to be philosophical when continuity changes are made that I disagree with. As long as the plotters are respectful to the quintisential (sorry, I know that I've just mis-spelled the word) essense of the Legionnaires--and I think that Mssrs. Kitson and Waid are mostly--I'm willing to keep on reading the book.

That is exactly how I feel. And I can only imagine that some of the best creators feel the same way too. Can you imagine having a passion for your work on "the Flash" or "Wonder Woman" and having to fit your work into a corporate framework of the DC Universe? In the past few months I've picked up Identity Crisis, the Watchmen, the Authority, and some Squadron Supreme. The pleasures of reading those titles are (1) the stories are good and (2) I don't feel as if I need to pick up a half dozen other titles with cameo cross-over appearances in order to find scattered tidbits to complete the stories. Although I think the Supergirl arc may be a good one, it bothers me a little to see this title potentially sucked into the universe of DC plot threads. How long will Mark Waid want to coordinate his ideas for the Legion with those of whoever is writing Supergirl or JSA. Committees aren't known for good artistic production. And, frankly, I'm probably in the minority here, the Infinite Crisis, reeks of committee design.

I think the homogenization of the DC Universe is a great threat to its sustainability. If I can suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy a story about an alien baby crashing to earth and being adopted by a passing farmer and his wife, I can get over Wonder Woman saying something in issue 222 that is inconsistent with JLA number 106.

The other trend that I find discouraging is the trade paperback -- not that there's anything wrong with TP's, but they seem to add another layer of structure onto the creative team. One issue story arcs are not good for TP's. Overlapping plot lines that begin or end in different issues aren't good for TP's. But one-issue story lines and overlapping asynchronous storylines are good for loyal readers. And they are good devices for strong creative teams.

The toughest issue for me to imagine resolving for the Legion is the issue of aging. I liked the aging of the Legion in the time that I read it in the 70's and 80's. I'm not quite sure how I would feel about Garth and Irma as grandparents now, but probably it could have been good. The Legion is not the JLA. Its characters are not so iconic that they could not age and evolve (just not die prematurely like Dream Girl!) I can't imagine a JLA without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, but over time a Legion without teenaged Rokk, Garth and Irma could work. To me it's analogous to there being successful Star Trek series without Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Maybe it was the direction of some of those 1990 - 2004 Legions that I never read.

Anyway, Waid and Kitson have proven their talent, and the Legion is a rich source for years of solid work. The next few months might be the best indication of whether this series is an artistic powerhouse or just a minor product in the corporate lineup -- a Corvette or an Alero?

But many writers were able to do just that for decades. I like the whole team whent hey are written well. The trick is no overblown long arcs and keep to shorter stories with bigger subplots brewing in the background. The best way to handle this team is smaller sets of groups on missions and such and not an oversaturation of certain characters all the time. The LEgions biggest strenght is their huge cast since it appeals to everyone. You just have to know how to use it right.

The problem Waid has is he is such a Silver Age guy that he only wants to use those characters, and honestly some of the most beloved Legion characters are from the Bronze age. He did the same thing in the last reboot he did with a few new characters thrown in here and there. With this new series we have seem more of those dumb kids in the square than we have of alot of the team members, and that is not good. Since the LEgion was already established and up and going in the Threeboot Waid should have brought in few of the Bronze age characters right form the start.