Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Which Legionnaires do you think got ruined during Levitz' run on SLH?

Every creator has their strengths and weaknesses. Certain characters benefit from certain writers, and others do not. Often there is a mixture of both good and bad. Shooter made Luornu one of the most interesting female Legionnaires when he wrote her crawling through Superboy's secret tunnel and then crying herself to sleep. He also paired her up with Bouncing Boy, which is one of the worst things to ever happen to the character. I think it is a bit extreme to say that any character was "ruined" by a certain writer.

1 - Karate Kid. Kill a big one in the legion was a mistake.

2 - Colossal Boy. The silly marriage with Yera.

3 - Lightning Lass. She must die in the place of Val. For me, the worst female legionnaire in all the baxter series.

4 - Sensor Girl. Cool powers. Ugly costume.
After the Cockrum vision of Jeckie... nothing was the same.

5 - Duo Damsel. Doomed another body of the poor girl. It's not fair. She lost her first love, live with Chuck. Is not enough pain for Luornu?

"Mr. Giffen is one of those artist/writers who says he loves the Legion. I would hope he wouldn't go after Jim Shooter-created characters for some sort of revenge. That would be pretty sad. KK hopefully was just the tragic hero in a good story."

All I know is, I heard the story about Keith's vendertta several YEARS before Karate Kid was murdered-- so when it finally did happen, I suddenly remembered when I heard about it-- so far in advance. (It could have been George Perez-- or Dave Cockrum-- both guys are really friendly and love chatting while doing sketches during store appearances.)

Okay, clearly you're talking about comics I haven't read, because I don't know about any of this. Do you have the issue numbers?

I've got to say this has been a very interesting thread, so hats off to The Beyonder.

That said, I'm quite surprised by some of these criticisms. I am especially surprised at how differently The Beyonder and I interpret Levitz' Timber Wolf. I absolutely loved his Brin above all others. After a long stretch where his only personality trait seemed to be that he was a terse misfit who only interacted with his girlfriend we were shown the lonely, awkward, good hearted person. The fact that he was so socially inept was a clever contrast to his physical prowess. Even though the Legion was his only home and his surrogate family, it wasn't til Ayla left him that he really had to try to find a place for himself in the group socially. I find it very sympathetic that he carried a torch for her, but didn't really know how to go about reaching out to her. The PI was the sort of thing that I intepret as a wild, immature shot in the dark that a well-intentioned guy who needed to grow up a little might try. As things progressed he made friends with Blok, fulfilled Karate Kid's final wishes, handled Ayla's return as well as could be expected and even became one of the few Legionnaires to date a civilian. All the while he was one of the more humble characters on a team that was full of cliques and people pursuing private agendas.

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As a side note, I'd point out that Levitz depiction of Mon-El seems to me was an extension of the way Cary Bates used him in one of the early Superboy backups with Dave Cockrum. It's the earliest I remember Mon-El being depicted as a more pensive character than Superboy.

Well said, Matlock.

Definitely one of the most interesting threads to come down the pike in an age.

I've always been a little wary about the notion that some fans have of Levitz as the "be all" and "end all" of the Legion, and/or that he could do no wrong.

While I am of course a big fan of the Levitz era, I am also a big fan of the Silver-Age, Cockrum/Grell and TMK eras, despite their flaws.

Interesting to be discussing the flaws fans perceive during the Levitz era.

I think it is how we intrepet it. Some people think that action X by writer Y made this character very interesting while others think it made them weak, etc.

I consider any Levitz critcism blasphemy. And consider many of the criticism strong points of his series. Ofcourse I didn't know these characters under another writer...Levitz was my first.

But I understand you guys...and you make good points.

Actually, most of us were being very polite about Levitz-- and we DID try to give him the benefit of the doubt in cases where it could be seen either way.

Fact is, Levitz DID screw up many Legionnaires, turned them into whiners (Cham, Garth, Imra, Mon-El, Polar Boy), bitches (Sun Boy,)creeps (Timber Wolf,Polar Boy, even Phantom Girl, to some extend)and so on; downright REFUSED to use certain characters, thereby killing them potentially of: Kid Psycho, Tyroc, both of them could still be around as fan faves, if only Levitz had gone to the trouble to find a place for them within the context they were designed in; killed of a lot of important franchises: Superboy, Karate Kid, Mon-El, the Subs, the Fatal Fife).

Can you back your snide remarks about T.'s origin & powers up? If so, let's hear it.

Alas, I don't have the books anymore. I sold them in 1993...
Maybe I'm misremembering something about this? (Or misinterpreted something important? Can somebody help out?)

You know, Matlock, this could be interpreted either way. Sure did Brin fulfill Vall's last wishes: but a case could be made that he HAD to do it, to get Val's fortune.

As to pre-Levitz Brin only being depicted as one-dimensional misfit with girl-friend is not QUITE true: he was probably the least-used Legionnaire this side of Tyroc, but if he WAS used beyond cameos, we see a very interesting side of him indeed.

Take the Legion of Super-Assassins' first appearence, for instaance; Or, his fight with Lightning Lord; Or,uring the Reflecto Saga, when Brin went up against Grimbor single-handly, after everyone else (except Lightning Lad) was downed. Those are the cases I remember best, but there's got to be more of them.

And NONE of them depicted Brin as foolish or less the the perfect gentleman.

But both his mystery, his intelligence and his nobility were stripped from Brin-- stripped by Levitz.

That said, you are amazingly polite, Matlock, considering that I stand at odds with "your" Timber Wolf...

Sketch Lad,

Yeah, Cham went through a lot, much of which was tortured characterization. I tend to forget about it since 1) He had a great "redemption" arc on Takron Galtos and on Durla with his father, and 2) he was one of the characters that did very well by TMK.

I was about to write something like this: "Why did Levitz think it remotely plausible to have a petulant, neglected son hastily invade a hostile foreign power because he had serious issues with his father?" Then I remembered that whole Iraq thing...

Beyonder, I suspect we just have different interpretations of the story. It's hard for me to name specific issuesm, too, because my collection has lots of holes, and the issues I do have are mostly "Tales" reprints.

As for the Timberwolf/will thing, didn't he give away the money to charity, or something? I can't remember.

What Levitz-era character traits do people think should resurface in the WaK-era?

Going strictly by memory, Ayla left the Legion the first or second issue after The Great Darkness Saga. The issue featured Blok and T-Wolf hangin' in the Mission Monitor Room the "day after doomsday", viewing an untold Adventure Era story tape about a renegade Green Lantern. That should make it LSH #295 or 296. Ayla then did not return until the start of the Baxter series.

I believe Timber Wolf did something "for the kids" with the money, but per TMK the Dominators ultimately absconded with it after the whole crappy Furball thing went down.

Beyonder, I just enjoy chewing the fat about the Legion and your couple threads gave me something to think about. I hate to say but I'm probably more inclined to agree with Levitz' splitting Brin and Ayla now than before. It still bums me out that my two favorite couples bit the dust under his watch, the other being Star Boy and Dream Girl. It seems like in the case of Nura and Thom, his take was that she was ambitious and a risk taker and he was sort of complacent or at least content with his modest role in the team and that was what undermined their relationship. I do think it was natural that some of the couples from the Adventure era had to fall out though. How many people really stay with their high school sweethearts?

In fairness, though I won't say Levitz "ruined" Chameleon Boy, he couldn't do much to interest me in him either. That Starfinger II plot with Colossal Boy bores me to tears still.

Now, I thought the Starfinger II saga was a great story device for Gim, who had been keeping a low profile around that time. The storyline put a spotlight on him - establishing an old connection with the future Starfinger heir while they were on Mars (he as a SP, Burrane as a convict), but more importantly solidified Gim's character as THE Legion foot soldier. He would never be a Legion leader under Levitz (even though both his parents held authority positions) but he was the consumate team player, unselfishly taking a bullet (or surgical laser) for the cause. His willingness to go undercover in his crippled condition spoke volumes of his heroism to sacrifice himself on behalf of the greater good.

You know I don't want to rain the posters parade who agree with most of this. But to tell the truth Waid has done a good job with the character traits.

Cham! A far cry from the smart plotting Cham.

Ultra Boy. I'm over this. This Jo is very immature. But Brin isn't. I call it give and take. But my favorite Jo was v4. annual #2. Best UB story ever!

Princess Projectra. I loved Sensor Girl. The confidence. This PP has shown some of that lately.

As to Val's will, I don't remember details, either. But, in my case, that's probably merely because I started to resent the series. Don't get me wrong, the stories WERE good, the writing itself was second only to the Titans, and IMHO it maintained its peak quality far longer then the writing of Titans.

Also, I truly believe that between 1985 and 1979, there simply wouldn't be a Legion book, without Levitz serving as guardian of the LSH,, as DC tryed to strip itself from any TRUE imagination, and let's face it, a "super hero club from the future" IS a lot more whimsical and unrealistic then an god-like Superman, or the other removed DC concepts and genres such as Kamandi.

But the Legionnaires and their concepts were in excellent shape before Levitz started to shape his pencil-shaped scalpel on them-- and look who they, their concepts, their overall continuity and their status quo were when he left.

Levitz DID Legion fandom an unrepayable favor by keeping the Legion DC's #2 seller at the time its continued existence was more threatened then at any other time since 1961.

But fans of individual members have every reason to scream in outrage, as we have a very good cause claiming that he runied this or that character, what with all the costum changes for no reason, simply obscene character-warping (Brin, Imra & Garth spring to mind at once), weird retcons and and a throughoutly depressing continuity-- an continuity Levitz is ALONE to blame.

I know people are fond of saying Giffen ruined the LSH-- but he was working from the splinters Levitz left it, and he really only followed Levitz' blueprint, didn't he. Only a bit more extreme...

Good question. Right now, I find very little laudable about him at all. But that's gotta be an side-effect of my love for the seventies-era Brin.

Let's see, what'd work?

Slight sense o' humor? No, it just doesn't work for that character, seeing how he stands with one leg on a potential "Animal Streak", and the other leg on that traumatic episode when his dad's android tortured Brin by rendering him amnesiac, then convinced Brin he was just some life-less android, and finally tryed to murder him. He's got to morbid a past to develop humor. It helped Wildfire, but it wouldn't do at all for Timber Wolf.

His, umm, "modest" IQ? Hell no.

C'mon, guys, that version of Brin has got to have something positive about him, else he wouldn't have any fans. After aall, NO ONE likes Reboot's Kid Quantum I...

But Matlock, Brin's formerly modest role in the LSH doesn't HAVE to mean that he did less or was third-rate. I allways interpreted it that he either went on misions with other members but we simply never saw those adventures, or else Brin went often on single misions, since he's a loner, and he DOES wield the raw power to manage most low- and mid-level menaces single-handly.

Okay, about Chameleon Boy being "ruined", I was kinda getting carried away I admit it.

But nonetheless, Levitz wrote him either als whiny loser who thought he had to "prove" something, or else als slightly sarcastic holmes clone.

Yes I know. Wasn't it great!

The Cham now is really Proty II. He has that generic alien blank think going on. Give me a sarcatic holmes alien any day.

But I understand where you are coming from Beyonder. As I said I didn't have anything to compare them to before Levitz.

As I recall Brin kept control of the money, and in fact stated that he was quite willing to allow Jeckie to take it back after she returned as Sensor Girl which she refused to do

The "bashing" remark was meant to be a humorous comment on how sacred a cow Levitz has always been around here. No offense taken, none meant.

Re: Tyroc's powers

In a comic book world in which we are to believe the unbelievable, Tyroc's powers made little sense, were not consistent from writer to writer, and were IMO silly. They amounted to sonic telekinesis...which is just uninteresting. Tyroc suffered from the same problem that Chemical King had--inconsistent, undefined, difficult to write powers.

Re: Tyroc's origin

Tyroc originally was a borderline caricature of the "angry black man," spouting off about racial injustice until he is successfully shown that white folks just ain't like that anymore. Go back and read the origin issue. It's almost laughable. At least he never says "Sweet Christmas!"

I could be misremembering, but it seems to me Brin had a strange sense of serious optimism (for lack of a better expression) in most of his portrayals. Not that he was chipper and cheering people up, but I don't remember any whining or "we're doomed" rants. He usually seems to just assume everything's going to work out somehow. I may be mostly thinking of the DnA version, though. (It's hard to keep them all straight somwtimes. )

He's been very laid-back (still not the right word) when he wasn't angry. I'd like to see that continued.

I'm just thinking as I type. I apologize if I'm not making any sense.

Was it Conway or Levitz who suggested the R.J. Brande-Cham relationship? That idea kinda came out of the blue...