Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Which Legionnaires do you think got ruined during Levitz' run on SLH?

...Now, I fully understand that Paul Levitz greatly increasened the Legion's overall popularity. He secured the Legion a secure place at comicdom, when supposedly "stronger" franchises - such as Weisinger Superman, Silver Age Wonder Woman, the Flash, and, heck, ALL of Earth-1 - fell into the swirling white maelstrom which was the Crisis, never to return.

And we can never thank him enough for that. Imagine where the Legion would be today, if it had still been the wall-flower it was in the late Seventies...

But even so, I still think he ruined many a Legionnaire's concept.

Who of your favorites do you think he raped, made unusuable, changed him un-redeemnably, killed off needlessly, or otherwise busted him up? Why don't you post a list in this thread, explain in detail in just what way he busted the characters on it?

I do wish he had tried to make lemonade out of the lemons that surrounded Tyroc. Troy got the royal shaft.

I'd say those 2 where abused the worst:

Timber Wolf: Man, they could have done so much with him. He had the most fascinating costume/look EVER-- but not only got he stuck into ugly ensembles for the rest of his life, but also wroten as a jerk and comic reliev.

Besides, I'm a BIG fan of the Brin/Ayla relationsship... :rolleyes:

Karate Kid: Quite possibly the second-most abused L. of all. He was by far the most popular Legionnaire, allmost rivaling Superboy himself-- and Levitz killed him off, and let him STAY dead!

Umm, I didn't get the reference?

Anyway, Tyroc got off easily; he was only IGNORED. He could have been killed off, or changed into some kind of slimy creep like poor Brin, or maybe even turned into some rassist villain...

I think there's at least 2 legitimate takes on Levitz's Legion:

1) He allowed the characters to grow up, or, in Timber Wolf's case, not grow up. To be fair, I think Levitz was trying to "fix" Brin (bad pun) after Karate Kid's death.

2) He wrote the Legion as if it was ending after his run (which, in a way, it did) and violated so many character's core "premises" that you had to start over, almost a "scorched earth" approach to the book.

To be fair, by the end of his run, the Legion's concept had become a burning platform, with Crisis, the death of Supergirl and the retcon of Superboy cutting Legion history off at the 'nads.

So, with too long a preamble, a short list:

1) Lightning Lad: As if dying and losing an arm weren't enough, Levitz made Lightning Lad the literal loser of the team, cursed by the Luck Lords. I think this paved the way for the abomination of Garth/Proty (again, a great concept, but it destroyed the character in the process).

2) Karate Kid: I agree with you Be'.

3) Sun Boy: Again, a good idea of a character's flaw (vapid, womanizing) became all-consuming, leading TMK to destroy the character.

4) Mon-El and Shadow Lass: Mon-El, in the original concept, was a brave explorer, obviously a bit of loner, but with the strength of character (patience, faith, curiosity) to survive, sanity intact, 1,000 years in the Phantom Zone. Shadow Lass was a cunning warrior and winsome ingenue who viewed all the Legion's males as potential conquests before settling on the most powerful and noble of them all. Levitz turned all this on it's head, TMK took it to their usual extreme, and DnA also felt we should have a wimpy, tentative Lar Gand. ARGHHH!!!!

None.

(Who says I can't come to the point? {g})

The guys:

SUN BOY - Levitz turned a once brilliant hero into an ass-grabber and set him up for the big fall under TMK, who spun his womanizing into congenital moral weakness. The idea of a "chauvantistic pig" in the 31st century was not only repulsive, but implausibly anachronistic. His comeuppance at the hands of Gigi, Yera and Laurel Kent was good only for a few yucks at his expense. After Levitz, there was nowhere for Dirk to go but downhill and there hasn't been a viable depiction of Sun Boy until now, imo.

LIGHTNING LAD - Here's a hero who survived death, dismemberment and numerous other tortures, and proved himself to be a strong and competent leader, but he breaks down like a baby when his wife takes a powder. Go figure. Then, to make things worse, he's subjected to "electrical brain fever" and later assigned the job of Imra's babysitter as if he were nothing but a worn-out husk. Not only an abominable mischaracterization, but a fate worse than death.

COLOSSAL BOY - I neither liked nor disliked pre-Levitz Gim, but his courtship and marriage to yucky Yera was enough to make me gag. Did Levitz honestly think he could pull off a romance based on utter falsehood or was he making fun of Gim as a big, stupid lug? To this day, I really don't know. All I know is that the Yera thing completely ruined CB for me and it's little wonder the postboot team transformed him into a martinet with the IQ of a log.

STAR BOY - He transformed happy-go-lucky Thom into a whining, clinging co-dependent patsy, until he finally gave him the cojones to quit the Legion and leave Nura behind. I'm overjoyed the WaK SB is not glued to Dream Girl.

WILDFIRE - Drake lost it when he started obsessing over his impossible love for Dawnstar.

TIMBER WOLF - Even his delightful friendship with Blok couldn't compensate for the painful castration Brin suffered during the Levitz years. It's astonishing how many of Levitz's male characters were reduced to foils for cruel, confused or diffident women. Brin epitomizes Levitz's unfortunate bias against strong, romantic male characters.

ELEMENT LAD - Levitz spotlighted E-Lad as leader and deputy leader and gave him some fine moments, but his relationship with Shvaughn was all wrong and, in the end, the "spiritual philosphy" stuff he started gave later writers license to turn Jan into a weirdo - or worse. It's one of the reasons Jan (as a character model) is still in trouble today.

POLAR BOY - Levitz hated Polar Boy, and it showed. After he turned Brek into an incompetent idiot the original Subs became little more than a joke.

INVISIBLE KID II - And Levitz thought Tyroc was an embarrassment? If I never see skunk-hair and his creepy little sister again it'll be too soon.

MON-EL - I can believe it of Brainy, Imra and even Luornu, but I don't believe for a single moment that this monumental hero would participate in a secret conspiracy that went against everything the Legion (and his pal Superboy) ever stood for. His slow, agonizing death was torture - for the readers. So too was his unbearably cloying relationship with Shadow Lass.

The gals:

DREAM GIRL - He made Nura stronger in many ways, but at the same time he also reinforced the anachronistic sexual stereotype that made her such a joke. It wasn't until DnA that Nura became a viable character again. The WaK Dreamy thankfully avoids (avoided?) that pitfall, for the most part.

SHRINKING VIOLET - a.k.a. Shrinking VIOLENT. What's wrong with the idea of a shy hero who can also kick butt? Nothing, that's what. The tough-chick stereotype is a cop out, imo. I hope there's something of the Silver/Bronze age Salu left in the new WaK version.

LIGHT/NING LASS - Among the most unconvincing scenes ever written by ANY Legion writer was Ayla dumping Brin, both before she left the Legion and after she rejoined. Her pursuit of Pol Krinn was distasteful, to say the least.

SATURN GIRL - The asteroid incident was the moment that Imra jumped the shark. Forever.

SHADOW LASS - No one in Legion history ever wrote a worse portrayal of Tasmia than Levitz did. No one. Thanks gods for Umbra, if only because the new Shady has inherited some of that character's vitality and guts.

WHITE WITCH - Levitz took a perfectly lovely character (the Silver Age White Witch) and turned her into a freak. How'd she grow those antennae, huh? Apologies to her fans, but I thought Levitz-era Mysa was a travesty.

That's quite an interesting list, Trom!

The only one I can say I agree with at first read is Colossal Boy. I too found the whole Gim/Yera thing pretty creepy. And crappy.

I'll have to re-read your list and think on it more, but my initial response is to say that I myself don't think vanity and woman-chasing (ass-grabbing) will EVER be so a thousand years ago. There will always be people like that. And I liked Levitz' take on it with Nura and Dirk.

Troy Stewart = Tyroc.

As for Wildfire and the whole Dawnstar thing, I myself found it fascinating.

I also found it a little unbelievable that they couldn't have whipped Drake up a flesh-like, anatomically-correct suit in the form of his human self. I kept wondering when they were finally going to do this and let he and Dawy be together.

I guess Brainiac 5 never thought of it.

Jillikers! Everyone knows Jim Shooter ruined most of the Legionnaires long before Levitz ever got hold of 'em!

Note to newbies:

Posts prefaced with the exclamation "Jillikers!" (or its kindred, "Willikers!", "Suffering Sasquatch!", "Leapin' jeepers!", etc.) are not always to be taken seriously.

Or it never got past the Comic Code Authority.

I liked Sun Boy. It's true that Levitz took the concept a bit too far, but I put the real blame entirely on TMK. I liked Dream Girl a lot, too. I never had a problem with her vampiness because it mostly seemed to be an act for her own ammusment.

I agree that T-Wolf suffered a lot under Levitz, but he did mange to maintain a bit of charm. Ayla, on the other hand... I don't think I'm ever going to like Ayla.

I started reading during the Levitz-era and Shrinking Violet became my favourite almost immediately, but Waid's take on her during the early post-boot is much better, IMO. I hope he remembers to leave a touch of shyness in her character.

Well, Levitz wouldn't have had to have been too overt about the suit's... endowments.

Levitz could have beaten Marvel to the punch with this years ago, but Milligan already did the concept in X-STATIX (Venus Dee Milo was also a ball of energy that had to wear containment suits).

Levitz improved Legionnaires more than any previous writer, hence the enormous success of the title under his writing watch. Dream Girl, Element Lad, Blok, Invisible Kid II, White Witch and Sensor Girl all rose to become engaging characters, while Brainy, Saturn Girl, Mon-El, Ultra Boy remained active and interesting.

Still, to answer the question - two Legionnaires who did not fair well were Polar Boy and Magnetic Kid. Both were depicted as having second-stringer qualities and were never portrayed to their full potential IMO.

I'll agree with that, especially re: Polar Boy's leading skills.

Imra Ardeen is such a shameless hussy.

wow !!

it's pretty interesting reading some of those thoughts on LEVITZ' characters !!

i never thought about most of them in that way !! probably because i read these issues years ago [ i never looked into them like that !! ]

i always had such a fond regard for all of them !!

but i guess i'll have to think about them again ........

Matthew.

See, I never have gotten this. All that is shown on-panel is a HUG. A HUG. There *could* be an argument that there was a kiss as well, in that shadowy scene.

It was Light Lass' unnecessarily hysterical reaction that made HER jump the shark, I thought, until TMK explained it all by lesbiafying her.

I saw nothing wrong with what Imra and Brin did myself. Very human, very natural considering the circumstances.

More evidence that Ayla is a complete nutjob. Which, of course, is more evidance of Rokk's longtime decision making skills!

Seriously, I think for the most part that Levitz' characters were all done very well and don't agree with almost 90% of the thinking that they suffered under him. For instance, I thought Levitz's Dawny and Wildfire was the best those characters ever were. And I place the full blame for Sun Boy on TMK.

However, the ones that I will concede are:

- Polar Boy (for reasons above) - still, of a team of 25+, there *has* to be some Legionnaires that aren't great leaders.

- Timberwolf - I don't like him being portrayed as such an idiot either.

- Mon-El - this is the one I thought Levitz didn't fully get the most. It seemed he kept trying to establish things that made him weaker and less heroic, when Mon should have been the strongest of them all.

- Tyroc - but really, what could he have done with Tyroc? The concept of the character really was stupid. It was only after reboots that we now have the opportunity to make Tyroc a fascinating personna.

Some tidbits I didn't always love (Tinya was a bit too snippy for my taste), but Levitz made them all interesting (well, maybe not Gim), and for the most part, I think he handled them better than any other writer before or since.

If you turn the page and hold it up to the light, you can see the bunn pinch, in my copy anyhow.

Y'know, I always thought it would be interesting if Wildfire tried to get his body back. The Miracle Machine could have done it. Since it was destroyed, I thought Drake could go hunting for the Controllers to see if they would grant him his boon. If anyone could have restored his body, it would have been the Controllers, since they built the Miracle Machine in the first place.

Imra was a bit hysterical herself at the time but, consciously or not, I think she was *begging* for it. A woman doesn't weep and wail to a guy about her troubled marriage -- especially a hunky guy like Brin who wasn't even a close friend -- unless she's looking for some, um, "comfort". She practically admitted it anyway: she wanted what Ayla had with Brin. Fortunately for her, Brin, bewildered as he was by her ravings, acted like a gentleman. If he'd responded erotically instead, you can bet your Latka Gravas it would gone further than a hug - or the bum pinch in BB's copy

If I'd been Ayla, I would have flayed Imra's hide for messing with my man's head and causing my brother a nervous breakdown. Instead we got the usual scenario where other people suffer for Imra's bad judgment while she gets off scot free. Ayla and Brin split up, Ayla leaves the Legion, Garth almost dies of electrical brain fever, and poor little Imra gets to shed a few crocodile tears before living happily ever after. It made me want to spit.

Ye gads, I wasn't really aware how much I totally dislike that episode until now. Truth be told, though, I've been anti-Imra since the medallion incident. The asteroid story and its aftermath just lowered my opinion of her even more. It also signaled very bad news to come for every other Legion couple. By the time Levitz finished in 1989, he had messed up just about every classic Legion romance except Tinya and Jo.

Well, I'd argue that the *real* reason for Brin and Ayla's split was for Ayla to go "find herself"... at the local Winath lesbian bar!

The Brin/Imra hug was a convienient excuse. If she hadn't been salvaged by TMK, I would have considered her insecure and unstable from that point forward.

Hmmm... so I guess I agree Light Lass suffered under Levitz.

Jillikers, Trom-- you *really* dislike ol' Iron-butt! It's cute!