Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Which would you rather have seen in December 2004? (only for pre-Crisis fans!)

This is directed at people who are primarily fans of pre-Crisis Legions, whether or not they came on board before 1986.

I have wondered: Since, for many 80s fans, their attachment seems to be to the creative team (understandable, there was no choice of continuities yet), what would they want now? Some fans have (wisely) pointed out that the neo-80s Legion isn't bringing any talent from that era with it, and for that reason alone is going to be different. So, where do your priorities lie?

Legion fandom seems to be one of the fandoms most ruled by nostalgia. But what is it actually for? That's why I finally decided to ask this.

Cant do it. I don't do sophie's choice questions, lol.

Forgot to mention, Lightle on anything is worth a look. Hated that his DP run only lasted about five issues.

I guess I'd rather see a new continuity (ugh) from writers I trust than a continuation of the team I loved by Waid.

But really, it's a choice between getting kicked in the ribs or poked with a sharp stick...

To me, the answer is obvious, and the polling results here so far back it up. The majority of fans are interested in original stories about the original team.

Bouncing Boy described it best in another thread, that the creative teams are stewards to the concepts and stories of any characters that come before them. It is the responsibility of the writers and artists to add to and advance the tradition.

Where the Legion has gone horribly wrong are the situations where that has been jettisoned for a new 'vision'. Time and again for the Legion, these reboots have failed, and the continuity of characters has been so schizoid, the characters themselves have been depleted or destroyed completely.

Elseworlds stories are fine on occasion. A whole reboot is irresponsible and lazy handling on the part of the editors and PTB, and undermines any sizable fan base. In the case of the Legion, the huge cast of characters allows for an enormous potential of exploration of different ideas and situations. There is no need for a knee-jerk restart, just an evolution of the existing template. Anything else is not Legion, and so far has been a poor imitation.

Thank you, Kid Q! I agree completely!

The thing that no one at DC seems to get is this:

How many Legion stories are there from Adventure #247 until the end of the magic wars? The answer: only one.

Characters grew, married, and even died in this very long and complex story. It was the complex membership of the Legion evolving over time, and the relationships that changed along the way, that gave the Legion its magic. With the reboot, all of the history was wiped out, so the creators needed to start the history all over, and try to create the magic of the Adventure era anew. At this, they have failed miserably. I would love to see the Legion pick back up with #64, right after the magic wars, and I would happily suppress everything since.

I would rather see something new that reminded me of the thing I loved than watch it slowly have all the life and soul sucked out of it.

A Re-boot would be disappointing but with that team it would have enough similarities to keep me happy which is something I cannot really say with the other option

At the time I probably would have voted for #2 based on all the good-will Waid's early work on the reboot created in me but looking back on his turd of a threeboot all I can say is "PHEW!". Bullet dodged!

If he'd written the original team half as badly as he wrote the latest one that would have been the final nail in the Legion franchise's coffin IMO.

It doesn't really appeal to me now but in retrospect I would love to have seen what #1 would have brought us.

I'd want to read any version done by Keith Giffen. He is consistently one of my favorite creators. I'm not saying everything he does is "great" or even that I like all of it, but he has always been a favorite of mine, as has his Legion.

Well, I opted for option #2. After all, if Waid were to script new tales of the original Legion, he would use "classical" characterications & conceptions of the Legion Mythos, not power-hungry Brainies, mute-but-telepathic Saturn Girls, or hyper-contemplative Karate Kids.

After all, I greatly enjoyed his depictions of the ReBoot reality, as long as he did it. He is one of DC's best writers, even if we don't care about "TrashBoot".

Levitz, on the other hand, simply sucks. Sure, I first meet the Legion in his JLA/JSA/Legion War; but it was Conway, whose writing fostered my love for the team, and the team-up was one of the badder, anyway.

Levitz ravaged Legion continuity to the point that the original version of the Legion had become unusable even before Giffen got to inflict his retarded "5YL" (meaning, among others: Salu (Gay Girl/Lesbian Lad) Digby, Lightning ("I'm a protoplasmic Blob") Lad and Shvaughn "Sean" Erin) on top of it.

Levitz raped many Legionnaires, most notably Timber Wolf, Sun Boy, Polar Boy, Phantom Girl, Chameleon Boy and Shadow Lass, and did so with Duplicate Boy, too.

He killed off both Karate Kid and Mon-El for no reason except to stroke Giffen's "best piece".

He did nothing to protect Superboy from the Post-Crisis DCU.

No, he or Giffen would be the last creators I would want to see inflict their madness on the Legion myth. Better by far to leave the Legion and their book in limbo for 2 decades or so, until another "retro writer" comes along...

Wow! Pretty strong words there Beyonder. The image of Paul Levitz raping Duplicate Boy, Polar Boy, Chameleon Boy, et al. is going to be a difficult one to get out of my mind.

You have an interesting perspective too. It's not often you see someone around here bash Paul Levitz's work on the Legion in one line while praising Gerry ('Lord Romdur's Castle') Conway's in another.

I'm not sure I agree with all of your points, or with the vehemence of how you made them, but I do kinda agree that Paul Levitz's work with this team, while impressive, wasn't really as worthy of being held up on the pedastal that a lot of fans seem to do with it. Nor was Gerry Conway's as bad. (Though it was pretty bad.)

But oh well - Vive la difference.

"Romdur's Castle" was bad. And the basic premise of that so-called "Reflecto Saga" was even worse-- while the story itself was quiten good, the premise (Reflecto just doesn't exist; he's really an amnesic Superboy who thinks he's Ultra Boy who is believed dead but is really trapped in another dimension...) was both disappointing and way too convoluted.

Doesn't change anything. I had the opportunity to read much of their Legion stuff during my childhood-- and Conway always won out.

For one thing, Levitz' Legion, during his first run, was too violent. Conway, however managed to give the Legionnaires personalities without having them fight with each other all the time. Legion wasn't Conway's best work-- that would've been JLA and Wonder Woman (a series he only faltered at as he used evil "secret societies" as a theme for three times in a row: the Cartell, Cobra, the Red Dragon). But Conway didn't warp the personalities of the Legionnaires, nor did he run Legion continuity into the wall, nor did he obsess about relationship problems, nor killed he off important Legion Characters (Karate Kid, Superboy, Emerald Queen, Nemesis Kid, Cosmic Boy's little brother), Legion relationships (Brin & Ayla, as well as Salu & Duplicate Boy), or important Legion concepts (The Legion of Substitute Heroes being the most important).

Levitz' overall quality of writing may have been better then Conway's; but the price is simply to high for it. The Legion was finished after Levitz was done with them.

Everybody whines about Giffen. But Giffen didn't step in onto a healthy Legion status quo and forced his "5YL" crap on it; he worked from the Legion as it was left by Levitz.

I've never been a fan of killing Legionnaires, but Magnetic Kid was not what I would call an "important character". He was a supporting character at best, though I admit his death was pointless and stupid. I thought Emerald EMPRESS's death was very well done and it's rare that a villain dies instead of a hero in a Legion story. Superboy's death was mandated by DC policy, so we can't really blame that on Levitz, and Projectra's executing Nemesis Kid added depth to her character, though I didn't think that death was welll handled either. And Mon-El was brought back to life.

As for the diverging couples you mentioned, I thought that showed growth and realism in the relationships in question. Very few people stay with their first high school cush forever and ever and ever as almost every Legion couple had done prior to these dissolutions, The Hall of Wedded Heroes in the adult Legion story was a very bad idea, imo. It made all the Legion couoples seem very static and stale by making them predestined to marry and live "happily ever after." That's a fairy tale that we're all old enough to see through by now.

You're not wrong, Jimmy. In fact, I am myself of two minds about that one. I never really liked Pol-- I always found him to be boring and little more then "Cosmic Boy Lite". The character himself seemed to be superfluous and pointless-- merely brought up so that the Legion has a magnetic member after Cos left the team. So, from that perspective, I'm not terribly sorry to see Cos' kid-brother go.

However, there could've been done so much to help the character. One or two "spotlight" issues focusing on Magnetic Kid (his personality, his place in both the Legion and its world, one or two subplots centering on him, and not just Ayla's attempts to "snag" him - sheesh, I'm still wondering why Ayla didn't just break down and offer to serve him on the spot, considering how she kept forcing herself on the poor lad -, and delving deeper into that "Fireball" crime, that killed off his mom-- wasn't he feeling vengeful at all? He just let it slide??) might have salvaged the character.

Also, wasn't he one of the first Legion relatives we ever saw? I think that alone makes him one of the more important characters, even if he was, all things considered, the least important or interesting new member from the "Sensor Girl Era".

Well, I thought the Emerald Empress' death was done quite well, myself. But that's not the point, isn't it? we finally get an Emerald Empress who's more then merely "evil cheesecake", he builds her up to a truly frightening stature-- and then he kills her off. Just think of all that story potential never tapped, all just because of short-lived dramatics.

As to Nemesis Kid, I disagree. His death was one of the best-written (and -drawn)comic book deaths I ever saw. But it has been a long time. Maybe you got it mixed up with Karate Kid's death? Val's death was adequate: not bad, but nowhere so awesome as the just vengeance inflicted by Queen Projectra upon the murderer of her husband.

Superboy's death might have been mandated by DC Regime, that's true. But think of all the clout Levitz had with them, both because of his position and the fact that his books sold second only to TITANS (and, later, SUPERMAN). I think, if had he really wanted to save Superboy (and, thusly, the fundament of the entire Legion Mythos, he would have found a way.

(The fact that Superboy's death is, again, one of the best-written, alongside the deaths of Nemesis Kid, Supergirl and Chemical King is, really, irrelevant.)

Mon-El? His death was even worse then the Invisible Kid's. First off, he gets nearly killed by the Time Trapper. No surprise, considering the fact that the Trappers full power hovers somewhere between Dormammu and Trigon-- probably much closer to Trigon. Then he spends a year near-commatose (while being married against his will off to Shadow Lass, I might add). finally, he dies as a side effect of the Magic Wars. If that doesn't make the top three of lame Legion deaths, I don't know what...

And it was Giffen who brought Lar back (in 5YL#4), not Levitz.

No. The Legionnaires are not "high school"; their cosmic responsibilities, their hardships, their sacrifices all matured them way past their age. Also, the Legionnaires are much sterner in their devotion then most of us can ever hope to be. If you're forced to go up against guys like the Fatal 5 on a daily basis, and might not be alive tomorrow, or one of your friends might not, as Cosmic Boy, Saturn Girl and Sun Boy found out when Garth died, then you tends to feel your relationships a bit more. And that discourages shallow school-girl/boy crushing.

Besides, the Legion Romances are as archetypic to the Legion as the Bat Signal is to Batman-- it helps to define the characters, and their place in the world of the Legion. Change them around, and you're undermining much that defines the group-dynamics of the Legion.

The same might be said about removing the "no marriages, please!" clause from the Legion. It might make no sense even in our time, but it made big sense within the context of the Legion's world: You get married, you got to leave the Legion.

Do we only get two poor choices?

Not interesting in either choices unfortunately. Waid has proved time and again that he should stay away from LSH

Should stay away? How do you mean?

Is this about the ThreeBoot? I hate them, too-- but isn't it time to move past that one fiasco, and give the guy another chance?

After all, everybody makes mistakes.

Beyonder:

I thought Karate Kid's death was lame. He wasn't even killed by Nemesis Kid. He flew himself into a powersphere and blew himself up, which accomplished exactly nothing.

I thought the artwork on Nemesis Kid's death was awful, especially the funeral scene at the end where he's lying there in the gutter and some stray dog is nibbling his bones. Gross! Besides, I thought you were complaining about his death. Now you're talking about how awesome it was.

I disagree about your logic on the Legion couples staying together. Yes, they grew into mature adults, but they were just kids when they all met, and I think the stress levels they face, fighting super villains, space fatigue, risking life and limb, time travel, etc. etc. would put even more stress on a relationship and make it more likely to fall apart. Look at real life instances. You often hear of a couple breaking up after going through a tragedy like losing a child, or becoming victims of a crime, or one of them being convicted of a crime, etc. etc.

Besides I got SO bored with all the couples clinging to each other all the time. Phantom Girl accomplished nothing in the entire Levitz run but hang around with Shadow Lass and make fun of Star Boy et al. and cling to Ultra Boy's biceps. Blech!

About Karate Kid: Right. I forgot. I thought he smashed into the generator, and slowed Orando's dimensional shifting through it. But it was a long time. I'll have to reread the story sometime.

Anyways the death isn't nearly as lame as the deaths of Mon-El, Mentalla and the Invisible Kid.

However, it is one of the great crimes of Legion writers, as he was one of the Legionnaires with the greatest untapped story potential, and the most fans.

Nemesis Kid: Okay. In his case, I goofed. He wasn't an important Legion character, but he was well-known, which is why I included him among the fatalities of Levitz' writing. My mistake.

But I'll stand by the comments of the "awesomeness" of his death. All the trappings (the art, Nemesis Kid lying in the trash, the dialoges, etc.) really just added to it.


About the relationships: Nope. Sorry. The Legion tales always stressed heroism over "humanness"-- and being true to each other even under duress is a big part of heroism.
The Legionnaires are neither high school students nor cops or soldiers-- they're HEROES. This also means they should be true to each other. And they were-- until Levitz came along. For you, it's "mature writing"; for me, it's hack-writing, and a major failing of his run, and one of the many reasons I wouldn't want him to return to the Legion franchise. He did more then enough damage the last time around, thank you very much.

Besides, it's specifically that attitude among later Legion writers that led to Saturn Girl's sad state as this board's resident "Space Hussy", isn't it?

About Phantom Girl: Man, don't let Phantom Girl hear that crack about her "clinging to Ultra Boy's biceps"...

Too late I already heard that!
I agree whole heartedly. I can see stress in a relationship, temporary break ups, even some relationships being written with the idea that one character is more faithful or in love than the other. The relationships should always return, at least in the comics. At least that's what I want from Legion.

Oops wrong button AGAIN! Geez I wish they would let us delete out mistakes.

Exactly. Mess with that, and the Legion loses much of his appeal.

I may have voted hastily. Mostly because I would like to see Giffen back on the Legion but other posters have made some good points. I don't find either premise that appealing but I have no idea how Waid might write un-revamped Legion. Might be good, I did like many aspects of his run.

As far as consistency of relationships/ongoing plotlines. I would certainly expect the relationships to evolve. Not every couple stays together, not everyone has the same goals. If it's just a bunch of do-gooder robots in costumes having different battles every issue, count me out, it's been done to death. I'm not saying that's what you mean but I want to read a well-written, believable (to the extent it can be i.e. people shooting flames and lightning out of their hands etc.)comic, continuity or no continuity.

I am with you, man. It's time to put Legion back into more mature territory. And be done with Teen Titans/X-Men wannabes. One can always do "Legion Year One" sort of stuff to keep it floating.

That sounds like an excellent idea to me, Ricardo!

and Griffen has proved he needs to stay away from the Legion...for Karate Kid's sake he just needs to stay away. That and killing other legionnaires he doesnt get!