Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Lightning Saga Legion in Action!

DC's website always had it coming out on Dec. 26th. I remember looking it up right after the last issue came out on November 21st.

The banner of covers here at Legionworld says Dec 19.

My mistake. Fixed.

Actually, even newsarama has it on for Dec. 19 http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Dec07/previews/19.html but thanks for the clarification, guys.

No one's talking about issue #860 yet? Or has our crappy-ass server prevented people from doing so?

Here's the alternate cover by Steve -



Beautiful job, despite the fact that I hate the costume. I wish he'd stop by and talk with us again.

Here's some interesting bits from inside -







And...

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">



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Is it just me or was there waaayyyy too many splash pages in this issue. Really this was half a comic.

I haven't been very happy with most of the new uniforms, but Polar Boy's was kinda snappy.

Lighning Lass's was okay, though I'd have preferred an update on her 70s look instead of the 60s look.

Shadow Lass looked great, but Night Girl should never have brought back the boufant.

You know, the story is okay, but it's seeing the classic Legion working with Superman that I find so interesting.

This one's off my pull list. Large pages of silly looking (to me) characters doing nothing. While I was with others, excited about a more "classic" Legion, I cannot follow the logic of this depiction? I feel like I'm missing an inside joke?

Even if I were not biased against the Johnsboot Legion (I won't pretend I'm not), I couldn't get past Frank's freakishly ugly artwork. Any artist who can make the magnificant Lydda Jath look downright ordinary shouldn't be drawing the Legion, imo.

I wish Steve Lightle had drawn the interiors, too.

So, Brainy is florging nuts again. What makes *this* B5 different from 3boot Brainy? What makes any of the LSaga Legionnaires different or special except for their relationship with Superman? Nothing I can see. I'm so bored with this pretense.

This issue was ok for me. It doesn't seem to move as much as the previous ones, maybe there were too many splash pages? I did like the fact that the Legion (and the subs *yay subs*) aren't taking this lying down.

As for the art, I think Gary Frank will be fine on Superman, but his Legion sure is ugly. I find the costumes to be blah, it reminds me of some pieces of modern art where the artist combines colors that shouldn't be combined so the end product looks like my dog just threw up. Maybe some people like it but I don't. The only costume update I'm cool with is Dawnstar's. The others seem uninspired.

Also, faces are a problem. The women are too ugly and look to old (THAT'S Night Girl, for a second I thought it was Tinya's mom). The guys do look emancipated, but hey, they are on the run, but for some reason the females come across more unnatural looking than the guys.

And I'm hoping Brainy is just tricking the Coluns in order to save the day, I don't really want to read about evil Brainy, I mean, come on.

However, I do like the Superman parts and this issue is still alright. Personally I've always had problems with future stories that are like this, especially since its a dark dystopic future only a few years removed from happy Legion. It just implies that none of the ideals of the Legion were ever really part of society, and that as soon as the Legion (or heroes) disappear all the baser parts of humanity come out and no one raises above it. So I was against the PREMISE of this story going it. The fact that I'm not hating it shows that I do find this Legion to be admirable and I'm ignoring the commentary on human society because it is a comicbook and really, it is the type of story to be told in a situation like this.

All that said, I'm still looking forward to how this ends and if we'll see other Legionnaires show up to save the day. I'm hoping for a happy ending, and not a non-ending ala Lightning Saga.

Yeah, the issue didn't move much. Seems like they're relying a bit too much on reveals of legionnaires. Speaking of which, who's left? So far, I count no mention or glimpse of Sun Boy or Element Lad. Anyone else? And, I'm a tad puzzled at Ayla's situation--it doesn't seem like as big a revelation as was hinted at in Lightning Saga.

I dunno about Brainy being crazy, though. Looks like Superman was in a trance and saw a projection of Brainy--not necessarily the real thing.

No mention of Luornu... I suppose her situation would be too complicated to address what with one of her dead selves being back in time fighting at KK's side.

Yes, well, I'll have to wait until I read the issue before I comment on the story but regarding the art, I don't think you can be more wrong.

Have you or have you not noticed that each Legionnaire has a different and individual face and body type - something very few artists bother to do - and the story is dark enough to warrant a more "haggard" look for the Legionnaires?

This is neither "Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica" where everybody is cartoonish, has exactly the same face and is happy all the time, nor is it the 80s.
If people can't accept a new look and a classic/modern artistic style that's as distinct and "right" for the Legion's vast universe as the artists' we consider "classics" was, then I feel they might be happier rereading the old issues they liked or the 3boot. I'd also like to remind you that the classic/original Legion in Action is NOT the 3boot, so if people expect what they've come to know as the Legion in the 3boot, they are definitely going to be disappointed. There's no "eat it grandpa" in the classic Legion. There's only sci-fi and heroism! (OK, I'm kinda joking here. The 3boot has had its good points).

Not that I wouldn't have liked Lightle or LaRocque or Grell or Cockrum to draw the Legion again, but Gary Frank is a great artist and if people get over the "bulging eyes" thing they may actually notice ALL the art instead of focusing on a detail.
Not to mention that some people seem to capitalise on such details in order to bash Johns and Frank and the return of the classic Legion -without any real constructive criticism - and also rain on everybody else's parade which, frankly, isn't very nice.

As for the overall story, if this storyline doesn't make sense then what does? "Eat it, grandpa" and "we'll show the adults who's boss?" or the "Svaughn/Sean" and the destruction of the Earth thing?

Thanks for the advice. :rolleyes:

"If people can't accept a new look"

the old "if you can't be happy with something 'new' you must be wrong" attack.

It's subjective. How can ther "wrong" and even if there could be, is it worth such an attack on otheres with an opinion different from yours? As for art, there is no "new." It's all been done somewhere, somehow.

Nobody here (that I can see) wrote that the ARTIST is a bad artist. They wrote words to the affect that they do not like the style, so how can they be "wrong?"

In this case, I imagine using your reasoning that the artist purposefully chose a specific as opposed to applied his own general style to this issue. The "eye" thing may be a signature, much like Bryne's faces or they may be something the artist chose to do distinctly here, but it's fair game to say it's not appreciated now isn't it.


As for the panels posted, I can't see any reason from a story telling POV that the 2nd, 3rd, or last of them would take up so much issue space and I PERSONALLY wouldn't consider any of them Poster material.

First of all, I didn't attack anyone. Each person is entitled to their opinions and my reply was impersonal.
What I consider an attack or harassment is the fact that it seems increasingly difficult to post anything positive about the Legion in Action here in Legion World (and in a couple of other forums) and have a discussion about it with others who like it, because some people seem never to miss a chance to curse, bash, tear it apart and generally make things miserable for others.

You are partly right about the "if you can't be happy with something 'new' you must be wrong" thing but it doesn't apply either to me personally or to any of my posts. I suppose it could apply to people who only like the 3boot Legion (once again, I read every Legion comic that comes out. have never dropped it and never will)who seem to use it all the time on those fans who just don't like the 3boot.

I don't doubt it's subjective - and for the record I don't give advice - but I DO get the feeling that some people confuse "subjective" with "arbitrary" when they bash Frank's art or John's writing. It's one thing to not like his art style and another thing to use the "bulging" eyes as proof of how "ugly" his art, in general, is.
Please don't use the "different opinion than mine" thing because I've always respected everyone's opinion here and if I have nothing good to say about an artist I usually say nothing.
The same goes when people talk about something I hate about the Legion's history. I don't go around "raining in their parades" every chance I get. It's one thing to state an opinion once or twice and another thing to make it a point to suck the enthusiasm of others. We're supposed to have fun with the Legion, we're here because we love the Legion.

And my point stands: Look at the whole art in each issue and get over the bulging eyes thing. I'm sorry but it's not an opinion I can respect when someone focuses on one detail in a few panels and bases his/her opinion only on that. It is too biased, for lack of a better word, and biases aren't even valid subjective opinions.

Matthew E. and I argued a few weeks ago about the "originality" of the Legion in Action and my opinion was different than his, but he really defended his position and I enjoyed our discussion regardless of his having "a different opinion than mine".

And yes! People who got to know the Legion through the 3boot may not like the one in Action and people who first read an older Legion version may not like the 3boot or the Legion in Action or whatever. There are even new fans who never liked the 3boot and love the Legion in Action (stranger things have happened!)
There's no question about each one having the right to have his/her favorite Legion but chances are they are going to be disappointed by a Legion version that's too different to the one they like.

Finally, I thought it was clear in my last post that it's not constructive criticism that I mind, it's kneejerk negative reactions so what I said in my post didn't necessarily apply to everyone.

I'm not so impressed with this issue.

The 'world turns against the Legion' trope is a tried and true one, and I've loved it when it's been used well (the Universo Project being my favorite), but this one isn't doing it for me.

I liked Frank's art in Midnight Nation and Supreme Power, but here it's just not working for me. The Legion has always felt young to me, and all of the faces look wrinkly and their smiles like grimaces of pain.

This certainly wasn’t the strongest issue of the arc, but, hey, middle issues of continuing stories kind of droop sometimes. We’ll see if it picks up.

I’m still having a real mixed reaction to the artwork. Some panels and characters work for me, and others don’t. Shadow Lass looks hot as hell. Polar Boy, Night Girl and Light Lass just look scary. Superman and Colossal Boy still look great. Dawnstar is growing on me. Overall, this storyline is suffering because it was over hyped. All the talk about the return of the “original Legion” created a certain expectation and sense of nostalgia on the part of a number of readers. Many were looking forward to Cockrum era costumes. Many responded positively to the sleek commercial appeal of the costumes and look of the Legion in the Lightning Saga. Good or bad, this is an abrupt change. In my opinion, it was a miscalculation on the part of the creative team. Fans were already pretty divided over the claims of the return of the “original Legion”. Now we are divided even further over the look of the team.

That being said, I’m getting more comfortable with Dawnstar’s look. The decision to make her a key player in the storyline was a good one. It was exciting to see her in the Lightning Saga simply because she is a great character who hadn’t seen any action in years. The more panel time she gets here the better.

Polar Boy was used well this issue. Having him lose an arm to Tusker makes the reject Justice League seem a little more formidable. His dialogue contrasting the reaction of the substitute heroes with the Justice League to their rejection is an important point, and adds to the feel that this is somehow the pre crisis Legion.

I hope Brainiac 5 as the bad guy is a diversion. It will be a total let down if it holds true. We’ll see what next issue brings.

I can only say that for me, I'm having difficulty jiving those two paragraphs. We're all entitled to our opinions. Great, everyone agrees but your second paragraph seems to be telling me we're all entitled to our opinions as long as they are only "positive?" I've always thought, correct me if I'm wrong, that message boards were for the enchange of ideas and opinions, positive or negative? Individual artists/writers have "fan" boards, which may have a different purpose.

I'm honestly not seeing any direct bashing,..., of your opinions here that would cause you to be miserable. You directly addressed the opinions of others saying they were "wrong."

If I for example, do not like the art only because of "bulging eyes," why's that a ruin on anyone's day?

If there's something about disparity of opinion that's bothering anyone here, they could start a thread "those that love this comic/issue/art..." Anyone posting otherwise would be clearly off-topic and there'd be bliss in the valley I think.

I'm confused by the ending? Why would Brainiac 5 send a time bubble back for Superman only to be a genocial dictator type when they find him on Colu? It probably is related to Kal getting networked in to what the Coluans see or something, nothing else makes sense...

I think since Brainy sent the time bubble he's been brainwashed by the Coluans. Classic Legion twist...Brainy saving the day...also going crazy.

I agree with Jerry about the art. Some panels look good and some I don't care for. The eyes just make the characters look like some b&w horror comic characters. Shadow Lass looks amazing though!

This issue wasn't as good as the first two but hopefully it picks up again.

I enjoyed #860 quite a bit... how long is this storyline supposed to last? It probably won't be enough.

Some random observations--

-- I liked the effect of Dawnstar's dark eyes gone gold as she tracked Brainy's teleportation.

-- Has Polar Boy ever gotten such respect? From his torture-defying 'Long Live the Legion' (with the visible breath) to his snazzy, pain-ignoring entrance. He's like a Howard Hawks macho character, making jazzy comments while he's crafting himself an ice forearm to replace the one lost to Tusker. At first I thought it silly that he placed his flight ring on the icified hand, but it really is in perfect keeping with his dialogue and the attitude his words are expressing, isn't it?

Not too smart if his arm melts, though. But as an illustration of character at this moment , it works.

I may be in the minority, but I quite like his uniform... though it's counter to the character's traditional origin of coming from a world that's hotter than Earth. When he's not using his power, he'd be *cold*, wouldn't he?

After one great entrance, why not a pair?

And what a pair-- I love the duo of Shadow Lass and Night Girl. These two should've been operating as partners *always*. What a treat seeing them used as they are here, for me.

Shady's look is very close to the Cockrum/Grell uniform-- though skimpified, to be sure. The only thing I don't like are those high-heeled boots with the cutouts. Maybe she and Lydda use their flight rings subtly to cushion their steps, 'cause if they don't, those girls are in some serious pain after a couple of hours of running around.

I like Lydda's modified bouffant (I'm torn about whether I'd rather see it higher or not... campy or traditional?). I *don't* like those cutouts where her owl symbol's eyes and beak should be. That's just bad taste.

I'm inferring that Shady's using her power throughout the pair's intro... letting the darkness abate to show us the "Heroes Square" sign.

The two-page spread of old Metropolis reminded me of a panel in S&TLSH 205, where a mind-controlled Legion was building a space-ark for The Master. There was a similar sense of scope-- with tiny figures flying and scurrying about their business in the distance. Wanting to know who those tiny people were helped hook me on the Legion many years ago... I wonder if some new readers will get hooked here?

I notice that Bats, Supes and Wondy get statues. No Flash, GL, Hawkman, Aquaman, Atom or Black Canary? Spread the wealth a bit, DC!

Lightning Lass and Timber Wolf didn't make quite as much of an impression as did Tasmia and Lydda. I liked the detail of Ayla supplying the HQ and the underground space railroad with power.

The bit with Brainy is disturbing. I'm over this particular character as insane and don't want to read that again, so I'm hoping there's something else going on here. I'm pretty sure there's some mind-control going on-- or this is part of some stratagem or other. We'll see.

The Justice League of Earth-- I'm liking Spider Girl's sort of wicked dishabille. Her cobwebbiness and the gray/blue tones suit her. Especially as a villainess. I'd prefer the bad girl from her time as a Legionnaire, but-- comics can *always* use viable villainesses.

Something else else in Golden Boy's face in one of the opening panels makes me wonder if he might turn on his team and aid the LSH?

Storm Boy seems just damaged... broken, even. I wonder what his story is?

Tusker and Radiation Roy are just there.

Earthman... he continues to interest me. Will he become a viable recurring menace? I think he *could*. If he turns out to be a stooge, which I think is quite possible, then perhaps not.

I think Johns and Frank's depictions of these lesser lights as a creepy team of villains who maybe think they're heroes, maybe are knowingly corrupt, is possibly their most notable achievement in the ACTION LSH storyline.

I did really like the bit with Polar Boy, with his attitude and positive reaction to everything. He's got the, "we were rejected too, but didn't let that stop us from making a difference" when comparing the Subs to this psuedo-JLA group of Legion rejects. Between that and his question to Lydda about how "their team" is doing, I can't wait for the Subs issue to get here (I believe it is part 5??)!!! Big fan of Brek now (I can even overlook the spiky ice-hair...)!

And I know Brainy's gone crazy before, I just don't want us to go down that path again!

I just can't get past the way Gary Frank draws eyes...

I think this story is doing a fine job in what Johns stated he wanted to do: tell a "high school reunion" story for Superman. That's exactly what it feels like, which is not a bad thing. It is inherently nostalgic, sometimes overwhelmingly so. It does feel like a Legion story, if only because this story has been told before, but Johns is a master of retelling old stories.

I keep thinking about how I felt, in the mid-1970s, reading the Adventure-era "Adult Legion" story. From my vantage point at that time, the "real" Legion had moved on, to a new headquarters, new costumes, hipper, older tone. But here was the Superman of the mid-1960s visiting a "Leave It to Beaver" adult version of the team in a clunky new/old headquarters, the same outdated costumes, pipes, male pattern baldness, mustaches, love handles, etc. It was a fascinating case study in cognitive dissonance. Had those hip, sexy young adults of the 1970s embraced a nostalgic, conservative revival in their old age? I couldn't reconcile it. Apparently, neither could Paul Levitz, so he later wrote LSH #300 to explain it away. Don't get me wrong, I loved (and still do) the original Adult Legion story. But I think I realized at that time that these characters couldn't really grow up. Being young was an essential part of their story.

So we have, almost exactly 40 years later, a new version of that dissonance, with a "current" Legion title telling tales of the aspiring young heroes, and a Superman story showing us a glimpse of the now-adult Legionnaires Supes hung around with in his youth. This time, it's explicit that these are 2 separate Legions, at least at the moment. Like the original Adult Legion story, I am struck by the funky headquarters and the truly awful costumes. Nevertheless, reunions are fun and instructive in reminding us what we should carry from our adolescent years into adulthood. It's also instructive that nostalgia, like an overpowered rear-wheel drive muscle car of an earlier era, easily careens out of control into kitsch.

You know, my first exposure to the Subs was the Legion of Substitute Heroes Special and I loved them ever since. for some reason I can take a character who is used as a joke and see the wonderful concept behind them. Having had the opportunity (thank you Showcase) to actually read the Subs orgin and some other stories with them my love for them (and Polar Boy) grows for just the above reason. They were rejected, but they were still heroes and still strove to be better. That to me is probably more inspiring than the Legion proper itself.

to me the subs are like Rudy in a way. The guy who just didn't have the physical chops (whether their powers are too ineffective or not enough control) but who had more than enough heart. the entire purpose of the subs was to stand in for the Legion if they weren't there, and they didn't want any glory from it.

I've always loved Polar Boy and the subs and I have a feeling Johns does too because it is looking like they are finally getting the respect they deserve.

I suppose I can't deny that some of Gary Frank's faces look ugly, but I still really enjoyed this issue. It was exciting, witty, and reminded me of the greatness that was the Levitz Legion.

To mention a few specific points: Seeing Ayla and Shady felt like revisiting old friends (even though they're both in the current series). To my surprise, Geoff made me feel admiration for Brek, who is one of my least favorite Legionnaires. And it was nice to see Night Girl finally get a flight ring.

And so the affirmation that in the future sleeves will become obsolete continues! Seriously though, I am rather amused. Still enjoying the arc and still loving what Geoff has done.