Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! The Suicide Legion??

Just re-read some issues the other night, and this is bugging me. Jeckie said that Nemesis Kid murdered Val. Actually, Val died by flying into a power sphere and blowing it up. Pol died by walking into the lock surrounding Sorcerer's World. Condo threw himself into a radioactive pile to stop the reaction. Ferro took a header into the Sun Eater. Seems to me that the suicide rate here is through the roof. For the most powerful teens in the galaxy, they sure do just jump on the grenade instead of using their abilities to get out of a jam.

You might add Duo Damsel to that list, when she went off to face the Time Trapper - she, more than the other members of that team, was really on a suicide mission.

B68

I wonder if this part of your post is somehow the crux of the matter.

How many of our grandfathers and great grandfathers saw exactly this during the two world wars. Then there are a number of films of people throwing themselves on barbed wire with colleagues running over them giving a similar image.

A person sacrificing themselves for the good of their colleagues seems to be a feature of warfare and, let’s not forget, the emergency services. I tend to see the legion of old in a similar vein. They are to some extent a closed group, separate from “civilians” but dedicated to the safety of said civilians. There may be a sense of elitism in the ranks of the legion and one which inculcates a sense of self sacrifice and the idea of others before self. They have suffered some extreme stresses and through team work and reliance on each other have come through it. Some have fallen in love with their colleagues. All of these factors would perhaps indicate why such self sacrifice could be contemplated by the legionnaires.

Then again what do I know?

Lyle flying up into Validus' closing hand must rank as the stoopidest sacrifice of the lot....

While technically true, I believe it was said that Val's injuries were grave enough that he wouldn't survive even if he hadn't flown into the power sphere. Or I'm just remembering wrong.

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Pol died by walking into the lock surrounding Sorcerer's World. Condo threw himself into a radioactive pile to stop the reaction. Ferro took a header into the Sun Eater. Seems to me that the suicide rate here is through the roof. For the most powerful teens in the galaxy, they sure do just jump on the grenade instead of using their abilities to get out of a jam.

It would be kind of funny if the Legion got shut down for being a suicide cult.

I think Ferroboy is right on the money with Val's death. I'm pretty sure the injuries he sustained with his fight with Nemesis Kid were pretty grave. He just chose to "go out" on his own terms...or make it appear so. On a side note, this was not as much as of a defeat as it was a showing of the great skill Val had. It was ultimately a battle against himself, when Nemesis Kid adapted Karate Kid's power.

Personally I count Supergirl vs the Anti-Monitor and Superboy sacrificing himself for the survival of the pocket universe as Legion deaths too. Only one of those happened in a Legion story but they both went out doing something they knew was beyond their abilities.

Sometimes, I guess, the difference between suicide and sacrifice is pretty thin. I see one as a selfish act and the other as selfless, the real difference I suppose would be the motivation.

Let's not forget Wildfire's origin. He sacrificed himself and wasn't even on the team yet. Luckily he was brought back (only to sacrifice himself again to reignite the sun (only to be brought back again...)).

It has always been the highest ideals of heroism to sacrifice your life for others - and since the Legion embodies the heroic ideal of the 31st century...

Suicide = Self-murder = An act of violence and hopelessness, often pre-meditated.

Self-sacrifice = Giving one's life in the hope others might live = An act of selfless heroism, often spontaneous.

BIG difference. No Legion death fits any conventional definition of suicide, even reckless and senseless ones like Kid Quantum's, or sacrifices that failed to eliminate the threat, e.g. Leviathan's death. As for Val, Pol, Condo - they may have had complex motivations but none of them were looking to be killed that day. They saw no option, except for others to die in their place. Add to the growing list the obvious: Lightning Lad's death defeating Zaryan the Conqueror and Live Wire's sacrifice in Legion Lost. Add the not-so-obvious: the sacrifice Element Lad made to return the lost legionnaires to the material universe. In a sense, he gave his life for others too.


"... they sure do just jump on the grenade instead of using their abilities to get out of a jam."

They usually DO use their abilities (and teamwork) to survive given enough time to contemplate a plan of action, as we've seen time and time again. Otherwise the team wouldn't have lasted a year. But a person who hesitates to jump on the grenade when others are in grave and immediate danger, or when life as we know is coming to an end, is probably NOT Legion material.

Imo, Brainy's FINEST moment in recent memory was not when he used his intellect to save the universe, but when he threw caution and logic to the wind and rushed the Omnipaghos. That's when I knew he had "the right stuff".

While self-sacrifice to save your comrades-in-arms is indeed noble and admirable, I think it is used FAR too often in the Legion mythos. The great heroes of D-Day knew they would pay a price in blood to free the European continent, which makes their sacrifice that much more heroic.

We are talking about some of the most powerful sentients in the galaxy, people! While the science police go through more personnel than the Enterprise has red-shirted expendables, I expect more from a person who can control electro-magnetic fields!

In the Legion mythos, there are CERTAINLY some necessary sacrifices, most notable being Pol and Andrew. I just believe that an organization that is packed with members, any one of which could take over a planet of non-metas, should have a better freakin idea than stopping a bullet with their torso. It's like that old joke: "Geez, you look terrible. Were you in a fight?" "Yeah, but if you think my face looks bad, you should see the other guy's hand!"

"Jumping on the grenade" should, IMO, only be as a last resort. To be used as often as it has only cheapens the meaning and the impact. And just for the record, Nemesis Kid beats the crap out of Val, only to have Jeckie calmly walk up and break his neck? I have an easier time believing that Lobo converted to Mormonism.

Sometimes power comes from belief. If my, admittedly limited, knowledge of regimental training is right a great deal of fighting sprit is engendered by a belief that this regiment is better than any other. See the Black Watch for example.

So Nemesis Kid had the belief that his powers could adapt to protect him and to make him win every time. In that issue we saw his belief waver, crack and finally desert him leaving him unable to use either his powers or indeed his normal strength to fight off Jeckie. She on the other hand was in a berserker rage, giving her increased powers, strength and strength of will.

Jeckie had the belief that she was going to kill NK. But just as importantly for that moment in time NK also had the belief that she was going to kill him.

Sometimes firepower alone is not the standard on which to judge which side is going to win.

Darden, that may well be the BEST explanation of that "odd" event in Legion Lore I've ever seen or heard. I've always found that event to be more than a little bit unbelievable exactly for the reasons expressed by B68. Over the years I've accepted it but never believed it until now.

Thanks!

Beautiful explanation. I always saw it as NK trying too hard to adapt to a power Jeckie wasn't using. It seemed that Nemesis Kid always depended on his power and didn't bother with developing any of his own skills so when he had nothing to adapt to he had nothing to fall back on.
Jeckie on the other hand had to work really hard to be a fighter and often kicked nass right along side her husband.

But then the alternative is that nobody ever dies or they're *killed* like Lyle or two of Lu's bodies. I think the writers didn't want any of the Legionnaires to go out that way - they'd rather send them off with a more heroic death. A tad sentimental perhaps, but look at the negative reaction to how Blok, Laurel and Dyrk bit it.

let's face it -- teenagers at DC or Marvel are just more likely to die than the other heroes, whether it's Justice League vs. Legion/Titans counts or looking at the deaths in the X-books

especially the deaths that 'stick'