Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Garth in Jan or Proty in Garth?

I posted this elsewhere, but maybe it deserves its own topic:

Lots of people hate the Garth in Jan plot device. I wonder how it compares to the scads of readers who hated the Proty in Garth plot twist of the preboot.

Which would y'all rather have? Garth in Jan or Proty in Garth?

Me? I'd take Proty in Garth in a second. The revelation was shocking, yet it made perfect sense and didn't really change anything except how we think of the character.

The whole Jan goes crazy, then merges with the Omniphagos, then gets killed by Garth while killing Garth, then gets his own body back except now it's crystal and it has Garth's "electrical essence" thing just ain't working for me.

I honestly don't care for either but I have to say I hate the Garth is Proty more since it was, to me, done for shock value rather than for any real story advancement. Just another character assassination done during the TMK run.

Uunh uh, I'm not going there! I know what happens to people that make that mistake!

<marquee behavior=alternate>BANNED! BANNED! BANNED! </marquee>

The Proty in Garth issue was shocking (to say the least) at first. But it turned out to be a fact for so many decades, and I think people were able to accept it quicker. Whereas with the Garth in Jan "thing", we're being told from the beginning...a little harder to swallow. They (the creators) NEED TO STOP trying to shove this continuity changing crap down our throats! We need to start seeing some quality, character driven plots that made the Legion one of the top books during the 80's. Stop trying to fix was wasn't broken and build on the characters (and the characterization) that made the Legion successful in the first place!

It's not a question of which one is more believable. They're BOTH unbelievable. It's a question of the writers' integrity and intent.

The Proty thing was introduced as an irreversible fait accompli and served no purpose but to cast Garth as an imposter and a liar. In case you doubt that T&M's true intention was to subvert the character, keep in mind they also depicted his SW6 counterpart as a jerk. And no, Proty/Garth wasn't believable at all. It blatantly contradicted facts previously established during the character's 35-year history, and asked us to ignore that his wife was an alpha-class telepath. Recently (read "The Legion Companion") Tom Bierbaum all but admitted it was a mistake, and put the blame on Giffen: "I think, left to my own devices, I'm not sure I would have done that particular plotline. We suggested it to Keith, and he loved it. I'm not sure I would have done it myself". Sure, Giffen was the goad, but T&M's names alone appeared in the writing credits. What a hypocrite!!

Garth-in-Jan may be repulsive but it's reversible (for Garth) because the essence of the character remains intact. Judging by the current arc, there's no intent to malign him -- quite the opposite. It's worse news for Jan, and it's undeniably disturbing to readers (like me) who love Element Lad, but it doesn't necessarily preclude his eventual return if we assume Jan's sentience not in the "crystalline debris" with Garth. I'm quite certain it is not.

So I consider Garth-in-Jan the lesser of two weevils because, while it's crazy, creepy and bizarre [insert other adjectives here], it has some artistic merit, wasn't done for pure shock value, and was never specifically intended to damage the characters involved, as was Proty/Garth. Plus, enough loopholes have been provided to ensure it can be undone when the next writers are ready for Act II. No matter it's unbelievable. It's sufficiently comic-book believable.

Ummm... this isn't "continuity changing crap." Groty was - that was a retcon. A retroactive change of events. Jarth is new, it's in the present, and no past event has been significantly altered.

True. But then, if they hit the reset button at the end of every story, things'd get boring quickly. A saying involving eggs and omlettes leaps to mind.

DnA haven't done as well with this twist as they could have, but that doesn't make the plot bad in and of itself.

The title of this thread reminds me of the old Peter Frampton tune:

I'm in you
You're in me
'Cause you gave me the Protean I never had ...

OK, sorry about that. Serious discussion here.

As I've said before, I was sitting out TMK when the Proty revelation came about, but I find the various arguments interesting. On the one hand, it doesn't change Garth's character from ADVENTURE # 312 on one bit, and may suggest why he was so different from the hot-headed jerk of his earlier days (a characterization I disagreed with and found even more bothersome than the Proty idea, by the way). On the other hand, it is an unnecessary idea and makes one wonder what was going through Imra's mind the whole time.

Garth reappearing in Jan's form is just silly and contrived, though even the worst ideas can have some merit. His likeness is being put to good use in # 32, for example.

There are also some other possibilities that may be explored: If someone were to come back in the body of Adolph Hitler, for example, that person would be reviled and feared, but may attempt to use their likeness for good (say, for example, to convince neo-Nazis of the error of their ways). Garth could try to do the same thing by rallying the surviving Progeny to his cause. It probably wouldn't work, but it would make a good story.

I really don't care for such blended personalities/bodies stories. I believe that the Proty/Garth thing was a disaster and I find Jarth to be derivative. However, I'm actually looking forward to #33. Maybe there will be a decent resolution to this.

It's true that Saturn Girl should've been able to tell it was Proty and not Garth via her telepathy, but 2 explanations spring to mind:

1: Their relationship hadn't really gotten started by Adv. 312, even though it had been revealed in adult Legion stories that they would eventually marry, they weren't even really dating yet at this time, or if so, not very seriously. Imra took a vow not to pry into fellow Legionaires' minds early on. By the time she and Garth became seriously involved and she began communicating with him telepathically, the Proty personality could've been deeply enough entrenched that she didn't realize it wasn't Garth's original persona.

2: Maybe Imra knew all along and kept Garth/Proty's secret because she loved him.


I see Jarth as more derivative of Reflecto: Ultra Boy's mind in Superboy's body. I thought it was a lame idea then and I still think so now. Next we'll be going back to Superboy's mind in Dillinger's body. etc.

To follow jimgallagher:

1-Agreed!

2-Imra has a history of not revealing everything she knows. It would have been logical for her to shield everyone from a second "death" of a hero.

To answer which plotline was preferred, the Proty/Garth plotline was easier to accept. the Jan/Garth plotline is just painful.

I wish both were erased.

I liked the Proty in Garth surprise. LSH was the only series where the dead heroes stayed dead. Except Garth. Having Proty take over the shell made sense.

That said, other complications arising from that information were handled poorly. Why didn't Irma know right away? Why didn't Ayla suspect sooner. Your twin has a sudden personality change and it's no big deal? I don't think so. And finally I think all telepathic abilities of Proty should have been terminated when he assumed control of Garth's body.

But even with those caveats, I liked it. I can't speak on the Jan/Garth thing, as I've not read the re-boot material.

I don't think Garth/Proty was ever shown using telepathic abilities was he? He was shown talking to other Proteans in that story, but I think he was doing so verbally. Or else it was the Proteans communicating telepathically with him, just as Imra did.

As for why Imra did or didn't know, see my post above.

As for why Ayla didn't know right away: she said in the story that she was never really fooled. She was probably just trying to make herself believe that her brother was back and not to look a gift horse (miracle) in the mouth by probing too deeply and revealing that he really wasn't.

And I think the hothead Garth personality was retrofitted wasn't it? I don't recall Garth being a hothead in early Legion stories. Characterization was pretty limited back then and the Legionnaires were all pretty 2 dimensional. Garth's hothead personality wasn't introduced until the SW6 Legionnaires came along and Imra mentioned him acting like he used to, which was a hint that they might all be clones. Since this later turned out not to be the case, the new hothead personality didn't make much sense though.

Jim, I'm going off memory of the scene with Garth communicating with the proteans. You could (and probably) are right.

Also, my points about Irma and Ayla were more in retrospect. Of course back then, there was no real effort for any of the characters to have a consistent personailty. Just one of those things you look back and say "hmmm."Your reasoning makes sense.

Maybe it's just me, but I really like the TMK 9does that stand for Tom Mary and Keith?) run, so maybe I'm biased. But I thought those three did an exceptional job. With the exception of Dawnstar.

Hey, Tab, I liked most of TMK too, and yes, it does stand for Tom, Mary, and Keith. The stories and characterizations were much more complex back then. The villains and their motivations were more complex and interesting too.

Okay, I've tried composing my response a couple of ways. It's just hard to put down how nauseating I find Jarth to be. Especially in contrast to Garoty, my reaction to which was, "Huh! ...well, whatever." Undoubtedly it has to do with the fact that Jarth involves my favorite character, Element Lad, whereas Garoty only marginally involves another of my favorites, Imra.

Of course, that's where most of the frustration is created, isn't it? The folks who's favorite character has been messed-with. In regards to Garoty, I was fine leaving the detractions to Garth fans. I certainly wasn't going to disagree with them and insist that it was a good plot development--especially since I thought the whole "heart of antares" plot was pure dreck.

But it apparently wasn't enough to just mess with one character at a time. Now we have to mess with two--with the added benefit of pitting the interests of the fans against each other. And one of them has to be my favorite. Gah! The only thing that can make me feel better about Jarth is it is fixed and eventually put as far in the past as Garoty is now.

On the plus side, once it's fixed we can focus on the next character-combining monstrosity of the reboot.... Chumbra or maybe Ferrosmic Boy.

Hey! I just had a thought! Maybe this new "Jan" body is Proty in disguise!

After all, nobody's seen the little fella since before the blight and the rift and all that jazz. He could've been on the Legion Outpost during the rift adventure, disguised as some instrument panel or something. Later, he could've followed Garth and thrown himself between the Omniphagos's acid breath and Garth's lightning, while reading Garth's mind and SHAZAM! Garth's mind gets zapped into Proty's body through his lightning. Meanwhile, Garth's body is destroyed by the acid breath/spit/whatever.

Maybe Garth's mind is now really in Proty's body! How's that for postboot poetic justice?

Proty in Garth was Retcon at its worst, a betrayal to long-time readers and it made Imra look even worse- whichever rationalization one employs.

Jarth is still Garth at heart- just in a different shell. It's a story still-in-progress, and I for one don't mind seeing where it goes.

I would rather not have either. I particularly hated the Proty in Garth idea, since it severely altered Imra's personality to make it work. The story depended on Imra being aware of the change but pushing the idea away because she so desperately needed Garth in her life. That's not an Imra that's ever been written, and it was a terrible idea.

As for Garth in Jan, I just hope it gets cleared up soon. It is definitely preferable to the other scenario because there is no secret about his identity.

How do we know it wasn't Proty/Garth that she fell in love with?