Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! On a scale how powerful are the Legionnaires

There's been a lot of discussion here based on for example Lightning Lad and Live Wire being the same character but Lo3W shows that they are separate individuals from parallel worlds. There is no reason to conclude that the power levels of the different Garth Ranzzes are the same. We know that Superman's powers pre-crisis were much greater than the post-crisis level. The pre and post crisis Mon-Els seemed to reflect that - could post crisis Mon-El (or Valor later) break the time barrier?

Tinya Wazzo and Jan Arrah have slightly different powers in the threeboot from those previously seen. So while the pre-crisis Element Lad may have world destroying powers, I suspect that his threeboot counterpart does not. There could be similar variations in the power levels of each of the three versions of a character.

Certainly, Tinya. Even if you did nag too much in your Levitz & Reboot incarnations...

The way I'm going to do this is as follows: I'm using a scale from 1-5, and within each of those Tiers, I'm giving a Level rating, again from one to five, but this time around 1 means least, not most. As usually, I'm using the Disco/Bronze Age/Seventies Legionnaires, as that was the best era of the Legion, ever.

Let's start with Fifth-Tier.
The members at this rank are the least powerful of the Legion. They'd have problems to hold their own against Dick Grayson or Daredevil. Aquaman - a very low-level Aquaman - would be at level 5 of this rank.

Invisible Kid: Level 1. The weakest of them all. All he could do was turn invisible. Barely super-powered. No wonder he was killed in action...

Color Kid: Level 1. Can change the color in organic and inorganic matter. A very pretty power.

Elastic Lad: Level 1. After ingesting "Gingold Serum", Jimmy Olsen could S-T-R-E-T-C-H himself. I'll bet the girls loved it...

Fire Lad: Level 2. Can breath fire. Nuff said.

Duo Damsel: Level 4 (as Triplicate Girl: Level 5). The most powerful member in this class. Crossly underrated for decades! Possesses the power to be in two (or 3) places at the same time, and engaging in entirely different activities while doing so, too! She may not be much in the Legion - the most powerful hero-group of all time -, but try sick her on Daredevil...

Whaaaaat.......Oooh! I did not nag! When? Where? Over what? Show me.....

:rolleyes:

And your right the 70's was the best, that's why my game is based off of that with bones thrown in for the other eras.

Well, there was the time you snapped at Timber Wolf about some comment he made. You explicitly said: "Ohh... No wonder you get along so good with Block!" There were others, too.

And in the Reboot/Archie reality, all you did was nagging.


Glad to hear it. The Silver Age and the Reboot were not bad, but the Bronze Age rules.

People seriously underestimate the sheer power of Matter Eater Lad. He has partial super-strength and invulnerability (his teeth can cut through anything and not break, his jaws are strong enough to power this action, his mouth and digestive tract aren't harmed by what he's eaten), and he has Hyper-Acidic Saliva (how else does he break down what he put sin his mouth?).

I'd love to see him spit at an opponent!

And don't get me started on Bouncing Boy! Nigh Invulnerable, Very Strong, and converts Potential to Kinetic Energy in a Single Bound!

I see you must not be a fan of Aquaman, and I have to disagree. Aquaman (the comics version and not the Super Friends version) could definitely take down Nightwing. Aquaman has super strength and limited telepathy while Nightwing just a body in peak physical condition. Nightwing could take down Aquaman, but it would require Dick to use his smarts to take down Arthur instead of just relying on a fist fight.

I agree that people vastly underestimate Matter-Eater Lad because he has a humorous power. But if you think about it, like you described ME Lad basically has a shark like mouth. Opponents should be glad he never turns his power on organic beings - that could prove to be quite messy.

Something else else that I've always thought would be a good way to "power up" ME Lad for modern expectations would be to internalize his power so that he becomes like Mano in a way - he would be able to use his hands to touch something and if he so choses to he would then disintegrate what he was touching while absorbing it as "fuel" to give him temporary super strength or something like that.

I won't try to classify characters into general ranges, as superpowers are very specific.

A few notes:

- The different Element Lads are quite unequal. Even the threeboot version (power has no range, transmuted matter reverts after one minute) is high-powered. I think only the reboot Element Lad was shown to alter his own body.

- I consider less physical powers generally stronger. This is mostly because it's harder for writers to put quantifiable limitations on them.

- Super-strength is not a very useful power, compared to most others out there.

Some characters have extremely high power level, but not matching usefulness.

- Dream Girl, before the late 70s. When strict predestination was in effect, her power was less useful... but it could never fail.

- Brainiac 5. Specifically, the threeboot version. He has 10^18 times human intelligence. What does that even mean?

For really usefully powerful characters, I'd have to say Element Lad (even the threeboot version) and Star Boy (particularly the animated version with his planetary-scale power). I'd put these characters in the same bracket as Superman, at least a Superman with anything less thatn Silver Age power levels.

But there's another level above those. This is the level a Green Lantern is on.

Saturn Girl. In the Silver Age, she could pick up thoughts across time. Telepathy surpasses almost all physical powers. She's nearly invincible. (There are telepaths even stronger, like Universo.)

Tyroc. Probably the most powerful Legionnaire ever. A variety of powers, many useful, some just strange. Reality warpers are the most powerful characters in comics below gods and cosmic beings. Actually, they probably deserve to be compared to those. Their powers are too versatile and hard to define.

Element Lad bugs me because of the presentation of his powers across boots.

1) Great Darkness Saga - This element lad was able to change the atmosphere of an entire planet, with a wave of his hand, but I don't think that he was able to make complex compounds or affect living targets.

2) Reboot - Could definitely affect living targets, and therefore could turn people into stone, if he really wanted to.

3) Threeboot - Sixty second duration *and* touch limited range. Shown to affect living targets. Massive depowerment, but the duration thing means that he could turn a person into a statue, and they would revert after sixty seconds, something that most other versions of Jan couldn't do without just killing the person (since it would take a Brainiac level brain to transmute that statue back to the thousands of complex compounds that make up a living human body!).

4) Shooter - No longer touch range, and he's been shown making simple compounds (debris into sand) in specific forms (had he merely transmuted the barrel into silicon, it would have been a barrel made of silicon, but instead, it turned into particulate sand. He didn't merely transmute it's substance, but also it's *form,* which is an entirely new level of power!)

Other Legionnaire's have had just as much power variance as Jan, Set. Some of them even within boots.

Like the just-mentioned Saturn Girl. Sun Boy and Shadow Lass have had some odd twists and turns to their powers. Chemical King was probably written out because writers couldn't keep his powers straight (why, I have no idea- seems not all that difficult to understand, to me).

But the king of inconsistent power presentation is Cham. There's what's written in his character summaries, and what's shown. I applaud Shooter for just going ahead and saying that he has the properties of what he turns into. The super-disguise bit *sounds* interesting (and appropriately limit-giving), but it's *never* been written consistently. Never.

For most kings, there's a queen. And in this instance, the queen would be one Jazmin Cullens. Kid Quantum.

Nope, Jan altered his own body in ADVENTURE COMICS and in one of the S&TLSH issues.

That power usage wasn't utilized again until after the reboot, I don't believe. Threeboot Jan hasn't done it.

I wouldn't say that super-strength isn't useful, but I sure find the less physical-based powers more interesting to *read* about. Actually, a combination, is the best. That's what I liked best about reboot Element Lad- his sensory experience of his power. The presentation of that idea was poor, but the concept was one that could've really added to the character.

Oh yeah, I know, it was just easiest for me to point out the specifics that he seemed to be able to do, and then not do, across boots.

Her, Tyroc, White Witch and Chemical King had the most inconsistent portrayals, IMO, and were doomed to do so, because of the squiffy definitions of what their powers did in the first place.

For all that his power was listed as 'super-disguise,' Cham has been able to turn into large or small creatures and use their abilities pretty much from the start. The Threeboot paid lip-service to retconning that out and specifically said that he could only look like something, but not mimic it's properties (and then contradicted itself by having him turn into that massive creature on Colu that clearly demonstrated super-strength that Cham wouldn't have been able to use!), and Shooter promptly threw that back out the window, so we're back to Cham being a shapechanger, not just a 'master of disguise.' I'm a little dubious about Cham being able to turn into non-living material and assume it's properties (energy reflectors, for instance, or in Superboy's Legion, where he turned into a small spaceship!), but if that's where they wanna go with it, that opens up a scary new level of power for him, making him able to replicate Element Lads powers to an extent as well, as he could then create any sort of element or compound out of his own masss.

I haven't actually read most of the Legion's history firsthand.

The vaguest and therefore strongest power in comics, along with reality warping, is generic "magic" or "sorcery". Why? Because magic, logically, should be a source of power, but a magician has magic itself as the power. This is usually vaguely defined, and amoutns to reality warping.

With that in mind, can anyone tell me what the observed extent of Dragonmage's power was?

Between White Witch and A. Stefanacci?

I mean, what specific things was he shown to do?

Fourth-Tier.
Definite potential here. Powers at this rank, while being limited in scope and theme, are nonetheless quite lethal, as well as being able to function in a wide range of situations, despite their inherent fixation on a single theme. Spider-Woman (the "classical" version of the late Seventies/early Eighties) would be at level 5 of this rank.

Chlorophyll Kid: Level 2. Can control the growth and behavior of plants. Not bad.

Stone Boy: Level 1. Can become stone, but needs to get catatonic to do so.

Bouncing Boy: Level 2. Can become a "human bouncing ball", and and could, in theory, use that power to clobber whole armies. Not somebody you'd want to mess with...

Insect Queen: Level 2. Her ring changes her lower body (and sometimes parts of her torso and head) into any insect she choses; but she can use every insect but once per hour. Very useful power.

Chameleon Boy: Level 4. Possesses the power of "Super-disguise". Can also duplicate the powers of Shrinking Violet, Phantom Girl, Elastic Lad, the Insect Queen and Invisible Kid to some extend.

Shrinking Violet: Level 3. Can become sub-microscopic tiny. Quite a dangerous power.

Dream Girl: Level 4. Can "dream" the future up to a year in advance. An even more dangerous power, as she could bring down whole empires by deft use of that power.

Shadow Lass: Level 3. Can see in the dark, as well as creating non-material clouds of darkness. Far more powerful then you'd think at first glance-- just ask Sun Boy & Night Girl!

Light Lass: Level 5. Can "dispel" gravity itself-- once proved herself able to lift a whole mountain by using that power on it. Almost makes the grade into the next tier.

Phantom Girl: Level 5. She can become immaterial, as well as being able to enter at least two other realities: the Phantom Zone and BGTZL.

Princess Projectra: Level 5. She can create realistic illusions. Before she became Sensor Girl, she never made much of this power (which is why I'm dumping her in this rank), but even so, she can simulate the powers of Shadow Lass, the light powers of Sun Boy, the power of Color Kid, the core power of Chameleon Boy and made both herself and her whole team invisible like Invisible Kid. Even more so then Light Lass, she's but the tiniest bit below Third-Tier, even prior her "Sensor Girl" mode.
(In fact, if we disregard her persistent use of this era as a mere "foil" for Karate Kid, and the fact that she seemingly was too stupid to do much more with her power then spiriting up illusions of generic monsters, we could well place her at Level 2 of the Third Tier!)

Third-Tier.
Now we're starting to get somewhere! The member of this power rank are powerful enough that any one of those could conceivably bust a whole team of 20th century mid-level super-heroes. Think Spider-Man (Level 3). Think Red Tornado (Level 5). Think POWER!

Polar Boy: Level 1. Can create intense cold. Able to incapacitate vast numbers of opponents fast.

Collossal Boy: Level 2. Can grow to giant-size proportions, complete with increased strength and enhanced "hit points". This power also enabled Gim to be depicted more often on covers and books then most other Legionnaires by lazy artists.

Cosmic Boy: Level 3. "Super-Magnetism", able to shatter Khundian war ships with a gesture. Bad dude. (And lay off of his black corset, already! It looks great...)

Ok, quick question regarding Super Srength...I know that throughout the years the physical strength of Superboy has been portrayed differently. With that said, what would the maximum amount of weight Superboy could lift with extreme difficulty? What would be the lower end of this weight scale in which a die roll should be required for success (in a game) and anything less would be automatic?

I did an internet search and I got results for Superman ranging from anywhere to 100,000 - to 500,000 tons. In some cases I got the "He could move planets response". What I need is something that is game mechanically friendly for super hero portrayal. Currently I have him doing a maximum lift of just shy of 130 tons. How does this sit?

A blue whale is the largest animal in the world and it typically weighs 100,000 tons with some females (which are larger than males) possibly weighing up to 150,000 tons. A 747 weighs around 81 tons that's empty weight, so I'm not sure if it means fueled or not, definetely no passengers or luggage. Apparently the world's largest cruise ship weighs 51,000 tons. It looks like military tanks range from around 40 some tons to around 60 tons?

So do you think I am really off base or not? What would you recommend? How about Timber Wolf, what could he lift?

I think that it's better to avoid precise measurements (due to the long story of creators' contradictions reagarding this subject) and rely on a sort of 'abstract scale'.
Ultra Boy 100 (potentially +)
Valor 100
Blok 100
Superboy 95
Supergirl 90
Colossal Boy 90
Night Girl 75
Ferro Lad 75
Timber Wolf 50
Chameleon Boy 12

Are you talking pre-Crisis Superboy and Supergirl here? If so, I don't remember ever seeing an instance where Blok was shown to be stronger than a Kryptonian let alone close to a Daxamite. Colossal Boy seems a little high on the chart as well.

Why do you have Mon-El as stronger than Superboy instead of equal. Is it because Mon-El has been portrayed as being older than Superboy? I would say Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El, and Ultra Boy
and would be in a class unto themselves and the
others listed here not even close to them.

But then how do you rank those four heroes since their super-strength has been portrayed most always as all but equal? Do you go by muscular definition and lifting strength and give the edge to a gym rat like Ultra Boy?

I'm not sure where to put Timber Wolf and Colossal Boy on the super-strength scale. I can't recall the character summary, but one pre-boot description said that Timber Wolf had strength almost on the scale of Ultra Boy. Most other versions have had him with lower strength. With Colossal Boy, I recall a preboot summary that suggested that, despite his size, he wasn't actually that strong.

I always had the impression that Timber Wolf could throw around objects the size of a tank with no difficulty what-so-ever. In issue #209 of Superboy starring the Legion of Super-Heroes there is a scene where Princess Projectra is attempting to land a spacecruiser but she has developed the Pain Plague. Her attempt to land the cruiser is very botched and Timber Wolf grabs a cable and lassos it, bringing to a crash landing. This is about the only real act of super-strength I've seen him portay (that I can recall). In his thoughts he thinks:

"The strain...is incredible...But the cable held...and so did my back!"

This is a far cry from picking up an ocean liner or a blue whale, so I always thought his strength was considerably lower than Ultra Boy. Of coarse we know these things change from story to story, but in a game they need to be set in stone and consistent. I was going to put Timber Wolf towards the mid beginning of the Super Strength categories for my game, which for him would be Epic. Colossal boy I was going to vary based on his height, but I wasn't going to let it exceed Unearthly. When he was his normal height he would be about the same as the rest of the male Legionnaires who don't have super strength. Validus I was going to put 2 categories higher than Supeboy, but I could get talked down to one category higher if you guys think that is more appropriate.

Super strength categories range as follows:

Heroic 10 Colossal Boy (Once he grows)
Powerful 11 Colossal Boy (Getting Bigger)
Epic 12 Timber Wolf, Colossal Boy (Bigger Yet)
Unearthly 13 Colossal Boy (maximum strength) based on height)
Ultra 14 (Ultra Boy, Supergirl?)
Super 15 (Superboy, Mon-el, Supergirl?)
Galactic 16
Universal 17 (Validus)
Godlike 18
Infinite 19

I'd put Superboy, Supergirl and Mon-El at the same level (as well as derivatives of them, like Andromeda), as well as Ultra Boy, Blok and people like Thunder. Possibly even Night Girl, of the Subs.

I'd put Timber Wolf in the 'can lift ten tons or so' area, like Spiderman. With the agility and strength combination, he's always felt 'Spiderman-y' to me.

Colossal Boy's strength depends on his size, and his maximum size isn't really discussed much (although he and Duplicate Boy once got in a fight where they seemed to tower over *mountains*). Square-cube law would require his mass and strength to octuple each time his height doubled, so at 48 ft. tall (8x height), he'd be at least 64x times stronger than normal. That's still chump change compared to the earth-shaking strength of Kryptonians and Daxamites, and those portrayed as in their weight-class (like Ultra Boy, Shazam people or Blok).

As Chamelon Boy can also assume larger forms, and still support his own mass, he can presumably also increase his strength to a lesser degree.

At the lower ranges, both Dawnstar and Shadow Lass have been described as 'stronger than human.' Neither has been shown lifting tons of stuff, but it wouldn't be out of line to put each of them a notch above a human bodybuilder, despite their slimmer physiques.

Technically, the Legionnaire with the greatest 'lifting strength,' could be Ayla, if she's using her powers to 'lighten the load.'

Re: Timber Wolf, I just found the comparison to Ultra Boy that I mentioned above. It's from the "Origins and Powers" of the Legionnaires that appeared in the S/LSH issue with Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad's wedding -- and was reprinted in the DC 1,050 Years of the Future. It says that "Brin's agility is unmatched by any Legionnaire and his speed and strength are almost comparable to Ultra Boy's." (I guess Ultra Boy is probably supposed to be on a slightly lesser level than Superboy and Mon-El.) Also, for Colossal Boy, that feature shows him holding a space cruiser, so that probably gives an idea of his strength during that time period.