Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes LSH 2021/2022 commentary

Hey all.

I'm really not trying to be a fly in the ointment here. But after Nighty's thread AND (separately) being called out (Negatively) on a Legion podcast about a positive critique, I feel like I need to say something.

Just becaue I am not a fan of how Brian Michael Bendis writes the Legion does not mean that I hate him, nor his fans, nor ESPECIALLY the Legion itself. The caveat here is that there are some that do have significant problems with things. But my advice here is to not throw the baby out with the bath water (horrible analogy, I know, I got a million of 'em)

I'll admit it - I came to this latest Legion iteration a bit late to the game out of the pandemic. Frankly, I found the *narrative* lacking, but the design AMAZING. I found the odd changing of the Ranzz'a race at the last minute very curious, but honestly I could care less. My super fave character is Salu Digby and the worst criticism (WHICH IS NOT!!!!!) is that she looks like the punk version of Marvel's Storm. So if you want to criticize me for being critical of Bendis' writing - PLEASE MOVE ON!

Yeah, we may have been over the top with the snark. Probably a combo of pandemic claustrophobia plus narrative starvation. But I think that 99% of the foiks here really WANT to LOVE what is coming out. If tthat also means 99% more the community on Twitter or Facebook, I can't help that. But it doesn't change my investment to the Legion in all its forms (I'll spare the screen shots of my longboxes), regardless of the fact that I was dormant for many years here.

I'm neither a hater nor a gatekeeper. If I've come across as either, I apologize.

But I will be honest in my reactions to what I read, and I will not apologize for that. If a Legion story isn't great, I'll say it, and I'd hope others would too. Personally, I want them all to be amazing because I want them to live forever. But their stories need to be well written.

I look forward to open discussion about the Legion moving forward. It's just that lately, I've had the feeling that only good vibes are allowed, across the internet platforms for the Legion.

Nice post GL! Long Live The Legion!!!

I myself have been quite vocal with some of the stuff that bugged me prior to the Bendis "Legion" first coming out and also during and after it was done. One of the things that really bothered me is that most of the "legionnaires" didn't even get a proper introduction and remained background characters right through to the end. Case in point: Punky Storm-like Shrinking Violet (I agree with your comparison) We didn't even get to know her, or see her in action. She's not the only one, and I've said this before on here and elsewhere, the same goes for Sun Boy, Star Boy, M-E Lad, Green Skeleton Girl, Princess Projectra, Monster Boy, Chameleon Boy ... I'm sure I missed a few.
I maintain that Bendis's creative decisions regarding a lot of this iteration of the Legion lacked integrity. There was no commitment to the characters. It was as if he radically changed their appearance from the start, not because he had some real reason to, but rather as a shock value stunt to get us hooked. " ohhhhh, look what they did to Sun Boy/Element Lad/Shrinking Violet/Star Boy/Princess ProjectraRanzz twins! I wonder what that's all about!! "

Then he never delivered on the goods. Well I'm sorry but I was very disappointed and felt ripped off. It was as though the series never really lived up to its potential. For that reason alone it's probably just as well that it ended so quickly (plus the creative team clearly ran out of what to do with this version of the Legion, which is obvious to any long-time Legion fans like myself that read the last two issues).


My point is Bendis could have done a better job at introducing us to the entire cast. Unfortunately his style of story telling does not support this however. Others like Levitz for example could have done this in four issues or less.
It's not Bendis' fault but rather the blame goes to DC editorial staff that gave him the assignment. They took a shot but, IMHO, failed the Legion mythos in the end.

I like to look at this experiment of this Legion as simply a glimpse at yet another multi-universe (Earth 999 or something). Is it my Legion? Absolutely not. Would I support it by buying it if it came back? Yes ... as I did when it was here. Any Legion is better than NO Legion.

The upcoming Travis Mercer et al story of Polar Boy and Quantum Queen looks promising though! This is my gut-feeling first impression. I really hope we see the rest of this version soon after. This esthetic seems to be spot on for old-timer Legion fans like me!

GL, I'm sorry you feel singled out for criticizing Bendisboot.



I think this is the key here - we should all feel free to be open about our like/dislike of a certain run, issue, creator, character, development, whatever as long as it's done politely and respectfully (both to the creators and to fans with a different opinion). And I think the vast majority of posts and posters here on LW do that. Those who don't, should of course be called out and corrected... but I haven't seen any of that from you.

And I think you, Catonyx above, me, and many others who disliked Bendisboot honestly, truly gave it a chance and still did not like it for various reasons - and I think that's fair, we shouldn't have to like it just because it's a Legion book. On the flip side, we are also not disliking it simply because it's new and different. I know I didn't like it because of the writing style, lack of characterization for many characters, and so on. I liked some things (changes to Ultra Boy), and disliked others (changes to Mon-El).

And on the other side, I absolutely support anyone who likes Bendisboot for liking it. you do you, and it's great that you like it, and we can agree to disagree on liking it

I saw this thread, but my reading of it was that it's simply a request to keep that one thread positive. Nighty has stressed that everyone should feel free to comment (whether negative or positive) on any other thread in this forum, and given examples. I think it's just trying to carve out a space for some positivity somewhere, which I think is fair - it's just asking for that one thread to remain so.

i mean, it's why I avoid discussing the Legion or other stuff on Facebook, or why I'm off Twitter and barely check Instagram. There's so much negativity elsewhere, it tends to bleed over. I think in general we're more level-headed and kinder here, but I do understand wanting to have a little corner, like an oasis, of calm I come here to LW to recharge from all the cr*p elsewhere, so I totally get wanting a small space within it for fans of the current run to just enjoy it.

I guess in summary, I still find that here, Legion World, is a good place for all fans who are respectful. I've never felt like I cannot say my piece here, and i've never felt pressured to like or dislike something here. I think we've managed to keep it that way so far, and I hope everyone continues to feel that way too.

As for the rest of the Internet (like Twitter or Instagram)... eh! Let them crumble (it's why I don't use Facebook much anymore, frankly, too much toxicity!)

And my number one rule: never read the comments on a Facebook post

A number of comic book creators have looked deeply into the works of Lewis Carrol, from Alan Moore through Grant Morrison (on Moore's coattails) to Bryan Talbot. Each have...oh hang on, wrong snark... carry on....

Thanks for the support, all. I'm someone who very much believes that you should say what you need to say without fear of retribution, as long as you are not saying something with the intent to harm. The other online platforms make it easy to be boxed out of conversations on the whim of someone who didn't like how a sentence was phrased.



I think there was commitment, but only to certain characters, not the greater team in the broader sense, so the Jon, Imra, Jo and Brainy took center stage, while most of the rest of the team was background. But to your point about the storytelling style I think you are on the mark. Bendis is really good when he has a couple characters to focus on over the course of several issues. But in a team, that means the rest of the team is left out, or they get watered down.

For example, I actually thought Bendis did a decent job with the Future state story - it was pretty tightly told in two issues. But the main title that preceded it, while beautiful to look at, was too drawn out and watered down and didn't do its job. His Legion was my first experience reading a BMB story. I honestly didn't get the hype after reading the run.

So with the upcoming book, I'm hoping for the best, but with a bit of trepidation given my earlier experience.


One million percent agree with you both here.

This is ultimately my take. I would much rather have a Legion book being published that I'm not as excited about that others may love (and hopefully be super popular!) than have no Legion title at all.


Yes, I definitely understand that. Goodness knows the last two years have been so hard on most of us that it does tend to bleed over more than usual.


I agree, and frankly find LW to be a much better platform to have these kinds of discussions.

The true source of my frustration with the fandom at large is that there is a small but vocal group on the popular platforms that seems to think of themselves as gatekeepers to the fandom club. Now that the vast majority of online users have drifted to Twitter or the Meta platforms, that's where they've moved, too. Unfortunately (and ironically) those platforms ironically make it more difficult for people to really communicate. When you have to fit a complicated opinion in too short a space, criticism can be easily taken the wrong way, which leads to misleading assumptions on both sides, and anger and all that which can lead a person to feel ostricized, and that's not OK, and I was frankly shocked to see it in the Legion community. But lesson learned on that front for sure.

I will definitely move on from anyone in fandom who would shut down someone not saying anything controversial.

LOL

So funnily enough, I first became aware of this poem from the novelization of Star Trek 2!

You guys know me, and you know I was vocal for years about the possibility of another Legion reboot simply doing more damage. When the concept has been restarted so many times over a short period of years, I genuinely believed starting over from scratch yet AGAIN would only make things worse.

At first I tried to reign myself in when Bendis's book started because I knew I was biased and didn't want to ruin the experience for everyone else. I didn't lie about enjoying it and if I knew someone else hated it, I'd chat with them. I did force myself to give the book a chance, and it... it doesn't click with me.

I feel like in most spaces we can't say anything bad about Bendis's Legion, like at ALL, without people falling back on "Well it's for new readers" or "It's not for you" or "Stop being afraid of change," or just a very curt "Okay bye now." I've been accused of being toxic in regards to my negativity about the Bendisboot and should stick with the mentality of "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Yet I am still more willing to give Rich Bernatovech's story a chance because I feel he's a creator you can trust with the Legion, even though it's Bendis's setting. And that says more about how the problem is rooted in everything that Bendis himself has done with this concept, rather than the concept itself being the problem by default.

But it's like... I love the Legion and the Legionnaires. I really do. But I do not love THIS Legion and I'm tired of having to feel bad just because I don't like it. I'm not trying to make anyone else feel stupid for liking it, even if at times I do feel like they're ignoring some of the actual problems with the book like the dialog or the underlying racism in some of the redesigns or the lack of queer content.

But, I mean, why did we even have to reach this point.

It's relatively easy, and 'rewarding' to post something pithy and 'cool' and provocative, rather than engage in a page long back and forth discussion of substance where mutual understanding can develop.

Short-post formats like is more or less required by a platform like Twitter just accentuate that, and give a huge microphone to the drama-stirring 'drive-by' posters that tend to get dismissed as trolls, there just to stir up drama and show off their iconoclastic wit, which, IMO, drags discourse down and encourages people to think more and more in shallow witty sound bytes, and not deeply, or with consideration.

That said, I'm occasionally prone to the witty drive-by myself, so I'm totally part of the problem.

Like, for instance, this whole 'Twitter rewards conversations that are 100% style and 0% substance' tangent totally captures my problem with Bendis' writing in general. He's totally a writer for the Twitter generation.

Great point re how many platforms now don?t encourage nuanced communication or digging deeper. Even Facebook comments don?t lend themselves to longer discussions . Short and pithy indeed?

Yeah, while you can do threads on twitter, facebook, and reddit, sites like this and tumblr do a better job of allowing space for longer discussions.

This is basically where I'm at. I mean, if I'm going to torch the place with comments about how BMB is a horrible person, then, yeah, comments like that are probably over the line and shouldn't be tolerated at all. But if the commentary is around the story, then we should all be able to engage in a good dialog about what people like and dislike. As lots of you know, I came into the Legion with the 94 Reboot, and it connected to me, and I vividly remember the online discussions on Usenet, AOL and elsewhere about older fans having massive problems with the reboot. And let me tell you, I get it now. But me as a new reader was never going to push back and call people "haters" and mute their voices. If anything, I tried to be the voice asking people to not give up on it, whenever my voice was heard, at any rate.

Now we are in an era where if you don't like this Legion for just about any reason, you get caught in the wide net of being cast as a hater for all of it. That's not the Legion's message, last I checked.


You bring up a good point about the racial angle. I think we're in a place culturally now where any discussion of race, whether its even questioning a character's (re)design, is a delicate enough topic to immediately set people on edge. Combining that with:


...puts us in a really bad spot for any kind of meaningful dialog. You literally can't have a meaningful discussion about a subject like that when your posts are limited to 255 characters (or whatever it is) and will be shortened by a "MORE" tag if it runs long even for that! ANY discussion begins to get reflexively more strident and negative, and accusations start to bleed over into other subjects.


Agree, and this is the saddest thing to me.


Yes, me too, and the platform literally encourages that behavior (as does FB). But it can go sideways so quickly. You get information on your feed based on things that the people you follow "like" instead of just what the people you follow post. This enables the "drive-bys" that can get taken out of context. I saw one the past week where a person commented on someone's post, the original poster took the comment the wrong way and a flame war erupts, people cancel each other. Even on the most curated feeds this can happen and its not great for social interaction.


I'm really excited to see/read this, too! (I wanted to end this post on a positive note! )

And threaded posts don't read well and can cause very disjointed discussions. Reddit actually enables more lengthy discussion like this, but the comments can definitely drag.

Everything on Facebook seems so ephemeral. I don't know how often I've seen something I wanted to respond to, but by the time I get around to it, I can't find the post anymore.

It's all just designed to provoke immediate reaction rather than thoughtful discussion.

With Twitter being even moreso. The timeline algorithm is so odd there, as due to other people liking or retweeting things, I see posts that are half a day old or older, which in the time of a social media platform is an eternity; its useless to even try engaging with a message that old as everyone has moved on to something else. It very much caters to the shortest attention span possible.

That's how social media stays addictive, by rewiring minds so that they require a constant source of reactions... once is never enough. It has to be always,

That's why so many people are constantly looking at their phones. They don't want to miss anything.

What I found striking during my time with a Twitter account was how their whole pitch was that you'd organize and share with like-minded people. But the algorithim constantly hid the people I was most interested in interacting with, while pushing the opposite of what I was there for in my face constantly.

At a later date, they had the option of filtering out a word or subject to try and cut down on unwanted chaff. So if the whole internet was yipping about some show or singer you detested, you could sweep that stuff off your timeline. Except.. it never worked. [rolleyes]

YouTube will do this, too. But for some reason it's more obvious and easier to ignore and/or push out of the way.

It's all really just an escalated/sped-up version of bad moderation on older boards which would deliberately foment (or at least not correct or control) bad actors, because negative energy was what brought people back and increased attention and activity levels.

Before that, the model was tabloid TV and shock jock radio punditry, and before that it was newspaper or magazine letter/editorial pages which would emphasize the most polarized opinions they could regarding whatever the daily subject was.

Yeah, as much as Twitter has elevated this (or whatever the opposite of 'elevated' is), it's been going on since newspapers in old England at least, with deliberately provocative (and misleading) headlines to 'draw eyes' to buy the paper and possibly read the article that would provide the nuance, but left the impression on all the people who didn't read the article, and just saw the headline, that they had the entire story.

We've done this sort of thing throughout history, attempted to draw interest with ginned-up controversy or inflammatory (and misleading) headlines, so concerned that we don't 'bury the lede' that we're just flat-out lying to boost circulation. Tabloids just took it to the next level and made up stories to go along with the made-up headlines meant to draw eyes, and now we are many generations into a culture where people have grown up with junk 'news' in the supermarket checkout lanes about bat-boys and alien autopsies and Princess Diana being assassinated on orders of the Queen, leaving at least a certain segment of our population with some questionable critical thinking skills.

Twitter's just the latest devolutionary race-to-the-bottom, for this sort of thing.

"To be or not to be. That is the winter of our discontent:" Bad actor