Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Reboot Re-read: DnA Legion

Completely agree.

Actually, there is one other element from #37 that I failed to mention.

When the subs jump into play, Nightwind says something to the effect of "We're Legionnaires - we NEVER listen to authority"

This line very much reminded me of the anti-adult authority attitude of the threeboot that was just months away at this point. I know that Waid and Simone would chat about stuff (probably still do!) and I wonder if this is a suggestion that made its way from Mark to Gail.

38 coming soon.

The Legion #38

Released August 25, 2004
DC Comics, Color
22 Pages

For No Better Reason Part Four - Moebius Strip
Gail Simone Girl - Writer
Dan Jurgens Lad - Breakdowns
Kid Andy Smith - Finishes
Sno Cone 5.1 - Colors
Timber Wacker - Editor

Synopsis

In Metropolis, the streets are still burning and Trudy's still journaling. Canary is trying to wake up Dreamer and spells out the whole scheme - the destruction of Legion World and the Kwai gates - as she brews tea on a makeshift stove. Outside in the streets, the crowds are getting restless and mob rule is starting to descend. Umbra sweeps in and takes out a team of would-be looters. Brainy tries to convince Umbra to not get distracted by the mobs and focus on her main task. Violet is putting out fires. Devil watches. Trudy triages the injured and finds inspiration in Tinya.

On Oasis One, Persuader attempts to leave with his daughter, but suggests an alternative to Val - he'll return to his cell on the condition that Val looks after Lialla. In the med center, Ultra Boy attempts to convince Piter to act as a surgeon by offering all his organs to Piter when he dies (knowing that Piter won't read the fine print). Cham interrogates Arrow and Lantern. Canary and Dreamer continue their chat, and Dreamer says that she saw pain in the future.

On Legion World, Gear notes the spike is spreading and the radiation shields will be falling, starting to kill those with incomplete immune systems. They make the call to bring back the Karahdia team. Wildfire goes to get them and help contain the other situation.

Devil returns to the apartment and hits Dreamer in frustration for Vi interrupting her attempt to kill Brainy and Umbra. Canary asks how she was supposed to survive the attack on Legion World - an idea provided by Dreamer. Devil gets Canary to increase the dosage, when Dreamer burns herself on the flame. This breaks the connection between Canary and Dreamer, and all the technology starts turning back on. Devil attacks Dreamer with intent to kill until Timber Wolf crashes through and takes out Devil.

Later, back at the plaza, the rest of the Legion reappears. Lialla asks Val if they can date. Trudy - now going by her real name of Hannah Wells, takes over her career. She is about to give the news of President Wazzo's death, when Ultra Boy brings Winema - in her hospital bed - to the plaza, still alive and saved by Piter. Hannah gives the family some privacy from the camera.

Epilogue - Brainy and M'Onel return to Karahdia. It turns out that the Karahdian cycle just needed to run its course before they started to de-volve.

THE END

Commentary

So here we are - The end of the Gail Simone storyline and the last regular issue of the reboot. We get a decent wrap up of the plot that does generate a few questions, but delivers the mail well enough to not worry about them too much. Basically, it appears this power singularity is in place solely because of the link between Canary and Dreamer due to the former's powers and the latter's sedation. Once that is broken by extreme pain, the "energy singularity" disappears and tech functions again, so it was great to see Nura take agency and be a very active part of saving the day here. The 2 page spread of the technology coming back on was a nice bookend to the onset of the spike in issue 35. But Devil is very much revealed to be a garbage person, and this helps me enjoy her takedown by Nura and Brin. Canary is revealed to be almost autistic in a way, and this makes Devil an even more horrible person to be using Canary as she is. Even though I suspected that Winema would surive, the manner in which it was done was clever on Jo's part, finally showing a bit of that Ultra Boy cunning long time readers are accustomed to, although I did question the wisdom of flying the president's hospital bed back to the plaza.

While we are talking about some odd points, Brainy talking Tasmia down from hunting mobs was interesting as a counterpoint to her settling Brainy down in 36, but seemed a bit odd to me - aren't the Legionnaires there to help retain the order? Persuader voluntarily going back in his cell seemed to be an odd choice as well. Finally, this repeated mention of the radiation screens seems to come out of nowhere as a new threat. I don't ever remember reading about this in any of the earlier issues. Does it affect all of Earth? And the whole Karahdia subplot was a bit of a storytelling cul-de-sac.

In the end, the story is just as much about Hannah Wells as it is about the Legion overcoming the odds, and this aspect contributed to my enjoyment of the read just as much as the Legionnaires' actions. She has come out the other side of this storyline as a changed character, and that's a good thing.

Other Comments:

Cute play on the Legionnaire names with the "Girl" "Kid" etc in the credits box. But I don't think anyone thinks that "Timber Wacker" is a good idea.

Tasmia here seems MUCH softer than she did for most of her reboot presence. I like this Umbra better, to be honest.

SOMEONE get Vi a more flexible dress!

Trudy not being her real name is a nice touch.

Jo's offer is really gross, but of course he has the advantage. But the whole thing about Rimborian organs not matching humans - that seems kind of weird to me if different humanoid species can intermarry.

Reading the Infectious Lass dialog, I obviously mentally slipped Covid into that list

Devil - "Most of the Legion will be nothing but memorial statues" - um, actually, they already are.

Kind of noticing it here for the first time - but Dreamer - who was arguably the most sexualized Legionnaire in the classic age of the Legion, is much more modest than most of the other Legionnaires (aside from the cleavage window), which is in contrast to Vi and Apparition's outfits in this story.

Cute moment with Lillia and Val.

Grade - B+ Good wrap up and character work here.

38 . . .

And so it ends, and it leaves me wanting more. This doesn't feel like the wrap-up to a series. It feels like a beginning. More's the pity.

As a story taken on its own merits, it works quite well. There are a lot of surprises, and you can see how carefully Simone planned things out. DeRoy Pinter, the organ thief, has been little more than a posturing thorn in Karate Kid's side, but here he's key to resolving Winema's fate. Dreamer, who was a drugged victim for most of the story, saves the day. And Brin takes out the villain with a simple one-two punch (okay, maybe three-four) and the best line in the book: "You stink!"

Not everything works. The Persuader going back to his cell seems illogical given his history. I can only assume that he's developed some belated and convenient father instincts and realizes the best way to save his daughter is to give up. But then he probably knows that no cell can hold him for long. Lialla asking if it was okay to date a Legionnaire seems contrived, a quick wrapup that would be more appropriate in a '70s TV detective series.

But so much else works so well. When the power comes back on, it's a joyful moment. And Trudy/Hannah's growth provides the narrative spine of the story. She abandons the glitz of being a celebrity reporter and remembers what journalism is all about.

The Karahdia resolution is quick, but I think it makes sense on a thematic level. It mirrors what's about to happen to this title: "All their toil and the loss of their intelligence . . . seems pretty brutal," M'Onel says. He might as well be talking about the end of the reboot Legion. This seems to be Simone's (or Wacker's) message to fans. The Legion you know is ending. A new Legion will take its place. It's just how it is.

Well, maybe. There were many ups and downs during the run of this title, but it still showed a remarkable level of growth in the series and in the characters. I wanted to see more of these characters, not new characters with similar names and powers. I wanted the series to go forward, not jump back to a new beginning.

But if you have to go out with a bang, this was truly a well-planned and executed one. Simone's script is enhanced by the art, which remains solid and dynamic throughout. Special shout-out to the colorist, Sno-Cone, who uses bright, vibrant colors in the scenes of the Legionnaires on the street and more subdued, washed-out colors in the scenes with Dreamer and Canary--a subtle but highly effective shift in tone.

The only thing I didn't like about the art was the cover. The Legionnaires are supposed to look badass, I suppose, but Jo seems terrified and Cham looks as if someone's hurt his feelings. Nura looks like she's stepped out of a bad '90s music video, and Vi and Val appear to be stoned. This is probably my least favorite cover of the series.

And lastly: "Timber Wacker"?

All in all, this isn't really a finale, but it's an outstanding story in its own right and one that effortlessly captures the magic of the Legion that DnA struggled and ultimately failed to recreate.

Yep.


I'm just glad it wasn't "Think Fast"


Good insight on the colors here. This was a very consistently drawn series, and the colors were especially well done.


And I'm not sure why that is, exactly. Maybe it was the plot - it started small-scale, then threatened later to be massive. Characters? Not sure, as we still have some of the DnA faves here. I'm thinking it may be the dialogue - the DnA chatter always had a feel of being almost pseudo-military/pseudo-scientific, but this just seemed to feel like regular folks talking in an extreme situation.

Oh, I'm so glad Simone didn't go there.


I think Gail Simone was just an all-around better writer. In one four-issue story arc, she has a tight plot, interactions that feel true to the characters, a crisis that builds naturally off other events in the 31st century, and villains who demonstrate ingenuity and ruthlessness. She knows her characters well, both the heroes and the villains. For example, she doesn't have to explain why the Persuader does what he does. She trusts the reader to figure it out. She portrays the Legionnaires as young professionals who know how to handle themselves in a crisis, not as squabbling children. She gives us a viewpoint character in Trudy who keeps us anchored and serves as the "everyman" through whose eyes we experience these strange proceedings. And, yes, the dialogue felt more naturalistic.

Yep. I went and did a little bit of research in the late 90's with regards to the authors involved. Gail has mostly been a comic book writer her whole career so understands the superhero genre very intimately. DnA, by contrast, Abnett specifically, was a fantasy author who mainly focused on the Warhammer series at the time of his hiring. What's interesting there is that a central tenet of Warhammer is that there is a Warp space that has demons that can emerge - sounds a lot like the Blight and, to a certain extent, the Progenitor when put in the context of both antagonists. The Blight emerged from the stargate hyperspace, the Progenitor from the Rift.

So basically both writers wrote what they knew. DnA took the Legion and threw in a bunch of Warhammer concepts, for good or ill, and wrote it the way they wrote Warhammer. This also may explain their focusing on a core group of characters - they only spent a significant amount of time with characters whose powers they could align with the Warhammer universe.

Gail wrote a superhero comic.

Thanks for sharing that research, Gas. It puts a lot of things in context.

I have no familiarity with the Warhammer series, but your explanation shows how DnA adapted what they knew to the Legion. You mentioned previously that Simone was a fan of the Legion, so it's no surprise that she wrote from a deep understanding of the series.

It's a trade-off as to whether writers of a particular series should be fans. Fan writers "understand" the series but can bring tunnel vision to it, focusing on the minutiae and aspects that worked for them as fans. Writers from "outside" the universe may bring a fresh approach but not understand what made the series so appealing to fans in the first place. Back in the '80s or so, there was a plan in Hollywood to make a Star Trek film set during the main characters' academy days using new actors. This plan never materialized, and it's a good thing. At the time, those in charge didn't understand that it was not just Kirk, Spock, etc., that fans wanted to see. It was Kirk as played by Shatner, Spock as played by Nimoy, etc., that made the characters and the universe come to life. Much has changed since then, and different actors have played Kirk, Spock, etc., with varying degrees of success. But outside writers/creators/executives may be looking at the bigger picture without fully understanding the granular, emotional level that makes the series so appealing to begin with.

I think it's great that Simone was a Legion fan. But I do think she was an awesome writer. She understood what it took to make a compelling story. She provided a perfect balance of plot and characters, understood what fans wanted, and added her own unique spin.

I like Gaill Simone's Tasmia too. Like GL said, this Tasmia seems a bit softer. I think it's because her harshness is lined with compassion (she beats up the looters because they hit a sentient and threatened children) and friendship (her helping Brainy get a grip).

And to be more specific, he did a lot more work in the 2000AD realm prior to the Legion (as well as some Aquaman and a few other things). The Warhammer stuff was just prior to Legion, but there are a lot of tropes from that world that seem to seep into the Legion work (including a telepath controlling others).


Yes, and I think we can look at the Bierbaums as the best example of bringing fans in to write professionally as a direct Legion example. It's a fine balance - DnA surely did SOME homework on the team prior to starting, but not enough; it felt like they only went back to LSH 100 (which would make sense given the editor), so it only felt like they had a handle on about half of the team the whole time. Meanwhile, at the beginning of v4, you have Tom & Mary who, along with Giffen, added a TON of minutiae into the mix from fan theories. I'm midway through my own read of v3 right now, so I'm looking forward to the TMK stuff once I get there.


Yes, Gail was (is!) in that "best of both worlds" part of the venn diagram, much like Mark Waid, Tom McCraw and KC Carlson from the early reboot.

Yes, the belligerent Umbra was getting old even by the time of Legion Lost, then they took her to 11!

yeah... early Reboot Umbra and DNA Umbra were belligerent partly because of Tasmia's own self-doubt. Under Simone though, Tasmia comes across as very sure of herself.

and belated thanks GL for the research re where DNA's experience was, versus Simone's experience. Superhero comic books and fantasy are indeed very different genres...

If I think about it, it was probably more the 2000AD sci-fi influences that led to the Warhammer 40k stuff and then into Legion.

And its fine for a writer to write what they know, or to spin concepts from one property into another in an original way. IMO it just needs to be used sparingly. The Legion is in a rare set of titles among those in DC (the Green Lanterns probably being the other) where you can do a lot of crazy Sci-Fi stuff. The challenge is to balance it with the super heroes and the size of the cast. DnA's work was OK - I think we all agree that they were on the book too long. It would have been in interesting alternate future if Gail had taken over after Robotica.

Intriguing comparison of DnA to the more comics-oriented Legion writers.

Should there be term limits on comic writers (apart from their own independent series)? So many of them working the DC/Marvel line start off strong and fade. I'm thinking of a recent comment by Jonathan Hickman suggesting creators should save their best ideas for platforms like substack rather than DC and Marvel.

That's an interesting question, FC.

I totally agree with the "Term Limit" concept. I think I mentioned this in my earlier write up once we finished the DnA-specific section of the run, after having read the entire reboot, it really feels like the writing team stales out after about 2-3 years. After Waid left the reboot in the second year, it stayed decent, but the 20/30 seemed to both focus and strain the team at the same time. Then after LSH 100 and the editor changed, it REALLY got stale, which I think was at the year 3 or 4 mark. Similarly, with DnA we saw signs of repetition certainly as early as the Ra's story in The Legion, but definitely after Robotica, which again was the 2-3 year mark.

So I think its probably in the best interests of the characters, the writer and the readers to "freshen up" every 2-3 years.

As to Substack, that's fine - I think if a writer can create a compelling an interesting world and characters, they should go for it. Story situations can be implemented with any title, but if a creator can come up with a really interesting way to do it on their own and get paid, that's fine too. If they can do it well with an established title, that's also good. But I think its also a good move for all these "big time" writers going to substack so that the established publishers can bring in some new talent, perhaps.

Don't know about term limits, though I think some writers--including Levitz--went on too long.

The way the comics industry works is pretty much like any other industry. You have to keep putting out product on a regular basis, and it almost doesn't matter if the product is any good. Comics fans in particular have proven that they will continue to buy a beloved series regardless of quality. They may complain about it, but they will still buy it. Faced with such a blank check, it's hard to conceive of a publisher being motivated to make any substantive changes in the way things are done.

The comics industry is a very peculiar business. Back in the '90s and before, it was common knowledge that the first issue of any series by Marvel or DC was a guaranteed seller while sales of subsequent issues dropped exponentially. The publishers blamed this trend, with some justification, on "fans" and speculators who were hoping to get rich by buying up the next Action Comics # 1 or Amazing Fantasy # 15. Since customers and publishers both saw comics first as a money-making business, what of quality?

It's no surprise that creators turned to other venues such as self-publishing to get their work out. I'm not familiar with Substack, but it looks like a platform that enables creators to create and charge for their work. Such a platform has enormous appeal for creators who may feel hamstrung or short-changed by the practices of the Big Two. Of course, such venues do not have the reach, reputation, or history of Marvel and DC, so there's a trade-off. Producing a successful self-published work is extremely hard.

Term limits, I don't think, are really the issue. Unless there is a way to remarry art and commerce in the comics industry, we will continue to have products that start out well and fizzle out.

The other challenging thing to add to that is the fact that the comics are always written at least three months out and probably planned with a story arc before that, so it makes it all that more difficult to adjust to quality or sales.

And when I am saying term limits, I'm not meaning it in a specifically rigid way - two years and your done, for example. That being said, I really don't have much knowledge about how writers are contracted to write books. Your point about the whole venture is to make money is super spot on, and the quality generally wouldn't matter - until it does and readership starts to drop because the sales are lacking.

The 80's run of Levitz was something of an aberration, IMO. That was a long time to be generating quality at that level (and not all of it was great over that time). In some ways this discussion comes down to having an editor with a good eye for what the audience wants and what the writers can deliver in order to make it happen consistently over time - and to be able to make changes as necessary. That's an extremely difficult thing to do, but someone adept at it would be able to make a quality book that sells consistently.

One of the big differences between substack and kickstarter versus the more traditional way of delivery for comics is the fact that, like you said HWW, self-publishing is extremely hard - it requires time AND money, and you typically don't get the monthly cadence of release. I'm a supporter of Ron Randall's Trekker, and that's a book release, with 3-4 stories in the book, of every couple years at this point.

I don't think there should be set term limits - Marv Wolfman on Titans, Levitz on the Legion, Byrne's 80s FF run, Claremont on X-Men, Roger Stern on Avengers, Peter David's epic Hulk run - everyone gets stale eventually but there's no set period of time you can point at where you can consistently say that's when quality will always begin to decline.

I do think that writers should have to show they have a clear plan on a title though, and editors should work with them as that plan's end point approaches to assess how they want to move forward from there (which may actually already be happening, I have nfi to be honest...it does seem like some writers just make it up as they go along though!)

I wonder what the best way to monitor "quality" on stories is. Sales figures? Fan responses via forums? Peer review / review from experts? A combination?

I don't know - it's certainly not a "one size fits all" scenario. I think a decent editorial staff would be able to gauge those things successfully.

Its not an easy thing to write a cast of 25 plus extras. In fact, one thing that I do see in common between DnA and Bendis is the general inability to work with a cast that large.

I really think "better editorial staff" is the answer to a lot of problems.

As many misgivings as I have about DnA's Legion run, I would actually recommend their Legion-esque series Hypernaturals from a few years later. With a smaller cast of original characters (that evoke Legion archetypes), I think they did a lot better. They still go for a cinematic sci-fi feel, but without the expectations of what a Legion story should be like, it's a lot more effective.

Thanks, EDE, I may check that out!

You're right - the Legion has certain expectations for stories told about that team. If DnA were able to tell their kind of stories with their own characters, I'd be very interested. They can certainly spin a tale - I'd definitely like to see something of theirs without DC guardrails.

Abnett's Eisenhorn series (Warhammer novels) was addictive. One criticism of the most recent book was that the characters were too superhero-like (which didn't annoy me at all).

So now that we're at the end of the run, I just wanted to say thanks to all the folks who have taken the time to discuss, or even just read our thoughts DnA's run through Legion Worlds and The Legion.

After Ann's poll, I figured I should give it a good look again, as I felt my reaction to the earlier discussion needed to be grounded in a more formed opinion versus vague memories from 20 years ago. Reading these in depth really highlighted what worked and what didn't in their writing, and I was able to gain a better appreciation of the work, especially Oliver Coipel's growth as a penciler.

Given my spotty remembering of the succeeding run, I'll likely do a similar reread of the Threeboot at some point in 2022. I remember much of the first 15 or so issues, but it drops off substantially after that, so it will be good to revisit. Sooner than that, though, I'll be done with my Baxter read before going to the pre-ZH v4, so look for that in the nearer future.

Thanks again.

Thanks for starting and maintaining this thread, GL. I've enjoyed re-reading and commenting on the issues and learning from others' perspectives. I had only vague memories of anything post-Legion Lost, so it was a delight to rediscover some forgotten gems as well as to gain a new understanding of DnA's approach to the Legion.