Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion relationship dynamics

So a recent mention of Jo and Tinya's co-dependent relationship started thoughts a-burning in the wood stove of my mind.

In the Reboot continuity, which this was about, I wouldn't really classify their relationship as 'co-dependent,' so much as 'Reboot Jo was kind of an ass.'

But several other Legion romances did indeed have some wonky power dynamics.

In the classic continuity, Garth occasionally seemed overwhelmed and prone to depression, while Imra was absolutely the 'Ironbutt,' and very much seemed the 'strong one' and 'senior partner' in their relationship. Brin was similarly very much the 'needy' one, and Ayla finally was not having it any longer. Mon-El and Shady *seemed* to have a very lopsided power dynamic, just looking at their actual super-powers, but, emotionally, she was a supremely confident champion of her people from a long line of champions, and he was an emotional wreck, with a thousand years worth of PTSD, and totally isolated from his former home-world, with everyone he'd ever known or loved in the grave for centuries. Dreamy and Thom, totally different story, he seemed utterly rock-solid, if not actually a bit vanilla and boring, while she was a dynamic presence with a fated future as High Seer hanging over her head, and, frankly, a bit bored by him and prone to acting out, accordingly, since she had only this block of time to be free of her impending destiny and 'live while she was young.' He seemed ready to settle down, and that was like stepping early into the cage of her future, for her. And then Drake and Dawny. Yikes. I have no idea what to think about that! He could be *super-*clingy and almost irrationally jealous of the idea of Dawny having any other sort of relationships, but when he got a chance to manifest a physical body in some extradimensional realm, he surrounded himself with scantily clad babes *in a literal harem* and had to be physically knocked out and dragged away! Not cool, Drake! (Still, perhaps not best to judge anyone by their worst moment ever, and that may well have been Drakes!)

I'm really kind of impressed at how many different dynamics there were, and how they didn't all just fall into the same rut, or some sort of boring traditional relationship dynamic or gender-role nonsense.

I never thought of this possible viewpoint of Dreamy's and how it could affect her relationship with Thom. Very interesting and well put.

I think this is another aspect of how much individual character development PL managed to put into the Legion during his tenure. Moany if not most of the relationships predated him (some if not most had been around for ages) but the dynamics that made them more than just stereotypical relationships seem to have been most developed in the later 200's and onwards. There were some other characterisations that happened earlier such as Drake's hot headedness and Blok's stolid viewpoint but not much else. Garth's almost breakdown during the Grimbor episode by Conway always felt like a good try but not quite hitting the mark to me, so while Imra's strength fits very well with pretty much all of her history I think Garth had more quiet strength than was sometimes shown, and that Imra relied on that to a great extent. (Oh boy. I've gone from how writer's portrayed them to "how the characters REALLY are". Huh. Guess I really am a fan.)

Anyway I appreciate the efforts Gerry put in to a number of the characters but even more how Paul built on those and went so much further. As you say that led to a pleasing variety in the various relationships and how the ypalyed out.

Yeah, this interpretation of Dreamy makes sense.

I don't think t's talked about enough, but Reboot Jo definitely started out as a jerk by two-timing Spider-Girl and Tinya. Ah well. He got better for a bit.

Ha! I'm the same way with my tortured reasoning to find an excuse for *why* Dreamy can be the way she is! I can't just 'accept' that she's maybe a 'bad girlfriend,' but have to try to find some rationale for why she behaves the way she does.

With Garth, I feel like there's a whole story we've never been told. Originally, he was just some dude. Then, retcon, he comes from a planet of twins and has a sister! Who he's never freaking mentioned... And whom he up and left, not 'I need some space, I'm gonna get my own apartment' left, or 'I'm going to a different college in another state' left, but 'I am getting on a rocket off this planet, with absolutely no goal other than getting the sprock away from here, and no, you can't come with me, and I'm gonna make new friends, and never mention to anyone that I'm not an only child.' There's *gotta* be something there. Something potent. Something Garth (and Ayla!) never ever talk about, and something that NOW they are mostly over, and yet *still* never talk about.

I can make up my own fanwank, about Ayla transitioning from *identical* (male) twin, to Ayla, and Garth not handling the implied rejection of it (my identical twin can't stand the sight of their own body, which is, btw, *my* body? They are getting transformed to *look less like me?*) particularly well, but that's entirely my fanwank, and there could be plenty of other stories to rationalize it, and why Garth might have a giant load of unresolved angst hanging over him, and end up glomming to the telepath, because *he can't talk about it,* and with Imra, *he never has to,* because she just knows, and accepts, because she's grown up in a society where people just automatically know and accept all their loved ones 'deep dark secrets' and all of the rest of the universe and their hidden feelings and stolen glances and forbidden desires is just kind of 'whatever, so boring' to her and her entire culture that have no secrets from each other.

I could see it being quite the learning curve.

Garth (in his head) 'Oh, Dreamy just leaned over to show off her cleavage again. Wow. I hope Imra didn't see me glance at that...'
Imra (also in his head) 'I did. She has boobs. You have eyes. I literally do not care what you see or think or daydream about, only what you choose to actually *do.*'

re Garth and Ayla, I think some Preboot / Adventure retcon had it that Ayla was left behind because "she was a girl and it was more dangerous for her!" Not a very good answer for today...

Reboot at least had a better explanation: Garth was obsessed with finding Mekt, while Ayla had given up on Mekt as a bad apple AND didn't want to cause their parents more pain by abandoning them.

I've often thought of it as the entire Ranzz family being oddballs on Winath. I mean, while identical twins are a genetic anomaly, fraternal twins are a coincidence, a woman having eggs from both ovaries impregnated at around the same time. I don't think we've ever seen any fraternal twins on Winath other than Garth and Ayla.

Yeah, clearly the writers umpteen decades ago didn't really think about the difference between fraternal and identical twins, but it is odd that modern writers have sort of doubled down on it. As recently as just before Legion of Three Worlds, we see Winathians on Winath and all of those shown are identical twin pairs occupying the same careers (two male pilots, two female nurses), with the implication that not only are all Winathian twins same-sex 'identical' twins, but that they traditionally remain together and in the same career path throughout their lives (as opposed to Garth and Ayla, not merely opposite-sex, but also with him seemingly headed into a pilot career, and her, an agricultural one?).

In any event, Garth and Ayla are quite atypical for Winathians, and while we know why out-of-story (writers invented Garth first, then strapped on the whole 'comes from a world of twins' and Ayla later, with no understanding of how twin biology works, only later showing *other* Winathians as identical twins), I like to ponder reasons why *in-story* that it could make sense.

Ayla being born male (and Garth not handling her transition gracefully as a pre-teen/teen and taking a few years to grow up and adjust) just seems like the 'easiest' fit for both their 'twin' inconsistencies and their history/social dynamic.

But I'm sure there could be other choices, like one being adopted, or even a reverse-gendered clone, created after their parents saw how poorly Mekt was adapting to be a singleton, and not wanting their *second* singleton birth to have the same disadvantages and kind of 'creating a sibling' for them. (And if Garth was the 'clone' sibling, created from a combination of Ayla and Mekt's DNA to be Ayla's 'twin', it might explain why he felt weird about remaining on Winath, like it 'wasn't home' and left young. Although that's not a perfect fix since it doesn't really make sense that their parents would create a twin sibling of the opposite sex, and make their singleton still be the only one on the planet to have a 'twin' not identical...)

Not in the Reboot -

Legion Worlds 2 had Ayla chancing upon a pair of friends, one female one male.

Legends of the Legion 2, Ayla's origin story, had several female/male twins including her (and Garth's) school friends.

Interesting thoughts. I remember contributing to a thread a few years back where I suggested that the entire Ranzz family are singletons, since Garth and Ayla are brother and sister who happen to have the same birth date and are no closer genetically than any other brother/sister pair - and then how that could change the view of the whole family. Perhaps they all suffered from some ostracising due to their "singleton" status which not only contributes to Mekt's path to villainy but also to Garth's difficulties facing stress as shown in the Grimbor episode and the Legionnaires Three mini series. (Still Garth is still shown as strong enough to come out on top anyway.) Ayla seems to be the most well adjusted of the lot of them. I actually very much liked the strong portrayal of all three in the 5YL period where it seemed to show that they had faced their difficulties and grown past them to become a family as they never had in their youth.

Good to hear that in the Reboot they made the twins more diverse, although it stills raises the issue of how on Winath twins come about. The two causes are totally unrelated so unlikely to be both true in general of the population.

Very well put.

I don't think it was emphasized much that Nura was intended to be the high seer, but that spin adds an interesting dynamic to her relationship with Thom.

I came into the Legion at a time when the relationships were static. It was a given that X dated Y, and not much development was given to any particular relationship. (There were references to Cham dating Janice Warren, even though she appeared only once). It was quite refreshing in the '80s when Levitz came along and shook things up. The relationships took on a more realistic dimension. Most high school crushes don't last long; it was amazing that most Legion relationships lasted as long as they did.

The idea of Imra and Tasmia being the strong ones in their respective relationships was totally in keeping with the progressive and forward-thinking vibe of the Legion. I liked it that powerhouses such as Garth and Lar still had some emotional work to do.

Drake and Dawny were both in search of themselves--he in search of a body (or an identity without a body) and she in search of her true mate and destiny. I'm not bothered by Drake surrounding himself with a harem in the dream dimension--hey, it was a dream dimension--but once he did have a body (created by Quislet), very little developed in terms of his relationship with Dawny. I don't remember how that arc was resolved (if it was resolved); only that I was disappointed in it. I think Drake's assumption that everything would be perfect if he could have a physical relationship with Dawny was built on the usual adolescent misconceptions about love. I would like to have seen him realize that at some point.

The only thing I remember about Drake after Quislet gave him that body was that when he tried to be with Dawnstar, he couldn't turn it off. So he ended up burning her skin. If the series hadn't been cancelled when it was, there may have been a follow-up where Quislet trained Wildfire to restrain his new body so that he could touch Dawnstar safely.

When Quislet left for his own dimension after his "ship" was destroyed by the Emerald Eye, Drake found he could no longer maintain his humanoid energy form and had to go back to the containment suit. So yeah it was an interesting idea but not that much was done with it because of pressure of other events I guess and then it was back to the same old tension in their relationship. It was interesting in the late 5YL when they met up again that they both still felt strongly towards one another, Dawny having recovered/matured form her Bounty experience was prepared to pursue their relationship again but Drake was hesitant because he wasn't "the same person she used to know" referring to him now inhabiting Dirk's deceased body.

Yeah. Inhabiting someone else's deceased body would certainly make one hesitant about starting a new relationship.

Although, considering Dirk's extensive experience, perhaps all Drake had to do was rely on muscle memory.

Ha. Sort of obliquely acknowledging that Dirk often thought with the wrong head anyway.

(Although it could ape that Swamp Thing issue where Swamp Thing possessed John Constantine so that he could consummate his relationship with Abigail, and she said that he better check John's body for STDs...)

Seriously though, I feel like both Wildfire and Dawnstar could use some development away from each other and a storyline that isn't all about their star-crossed romance. Wildfire, in particular, could be more involved in training and recruitment, and mentoring young Legionnaires (and wannabe Legionnaires) or overseeing Tryouts, etc.

Wonder how John felt about being possessed... I guess I personally would take it as a compliment and be a bit flattered (owing to my body image issues as a youth), but would also find it a bit... questionable and squeamish!

Set, you are a genius - and so is Harbinger. She is taking Wildfire (and Dawnstar) in that direction in her own fic He's now a full-time tutor while Dawnstar remains full-time on another squad

Hmmmm...

So the thoughts about Dreamy and how her foreknowledge of her future role of High Seer back on Naltor kind of informs her relationship with Thom led me to think about Naltor as a place to grow up, particularly for Mysa...

So here's some random fanwanking about that.

Mysa Nal was the only Naltorian in her family, in her peer group, perhaps even in her region, to be 'future-blind,' and while that was seen as a deficit or flaw by other Naltorians, she sometimes felt like the only sighted woman in the kingdom of the blind. Everyone else was walking around, half-focused on the future, never giving what was happening right in front of them their full attention, never giving *the person* right in front of them 100% of their focus, half-blinded by their other visions, and so focused on those perceptions that they were almost incapable of 'living in the moment' or appreciating what was happening right now. A half-hearted suggestion to see if she could stimulate her missing visions by studying methods of divination from other cultures, tarot cards and dream interpretation, tea reading and astrology, served as a gateway drug into the occult, and the concept that she found totally lacking on her world, a sense of mystery, of *wonder.* Her people lacked imagination, and seemed utterly unaware. Life held no surprises for them, for good or for ill, and even when a Naltorian did not accurately interpret a vision, it was just 'not done' to admit it, so that even the least accurate precognitives among them came across as that elderly relation who squints and loudly denies that she needs corrective glasses, or that uncle who talks to loud, and tries to (often hilariously) guess what people are saying, rather than admit he's losing his hearing. Being unsurprised was practically a religion among her people, and she could see that not only did they have no real sense of wonder, they seemed bound and determined to stifle it at any cost.

And so the discovery of a 'Sorcerer's World,' where students of the occult, of mystery and wonder, of *magic* had retreated from an increasingly studied and settled and safe universe, where all the questions were answered (or at least, answerable) filled her with a burning urge to seek out this place. She lit the candles and sent out her plea into the dark. A child's wish for wonder. And they answered her call, and found that she had a knot of possibilities in her aura, all tangled up. She could not *see* the future, because it was never her fate to be a passive observer, cut off from the wonders of creation, she was instead a rare soul who could touch those possibilities in a way a mere precognitive could not. Not just to see, but to *touch* the future. To make change. To do magic.

She would bring wonder back to the universe, and share the feeling she experienced every day, that her people had lost.

Her journey to Sorcerer's World, her journey *on* Sorcerer's World, and her journey after Sorcerer's World, showed her many things. Not all of them were joyful. Sometimes the darkness is a kindness and ignorance a mercy, but she would not turn the stone back over and go back to living in a world without mysteries.

She smiles a sad smile when she remembers the carefully-guarded pity of her peers on Naltor. They just see and report what was going to happen anyway. She can *make things happen.* She is living the dream that they are merely observing, like the only lucid dreamer in this dream called life.

The 80s Legion were definitely very interesting in their relationship dynamics....it's very rare in comics to see a guy have psychological/emotional difficulties but not descend into villainy. I actually really like that Garth is a solid dependable hero who just doesn't deal with the stress of leading his peers very well; same with Mon being incredibly powerful but still obviously suffering from his trauma.

I never really thought of Dreamy's flightiness as a response to her knowing her future's locked in, but it totally makes sense - as does Mysa 's appreciation of the unknown. I will be thinking about this next time I write these two!

I would also throw in Duo Damsel and Bouncing Boy; considering they were basically support cast at the time, they had a heap of character work done in the 80s. Chuck is surprisingly always given so much respect as a character considering he's perfect fodder to be played up as the fat dopey comedy relief, and Lu had her trauma really touched on for the first time. I love that you can really see she's the hard one and he's the emotional support in their relationship.

Good points, razsolo. The '80s were in some ways a decade of enlightenment. Not only did Legionnaires deal with psychological trauma, but other realms of popular fiction also addressed mental health issues. The USS Enterprise included a counselor as a member of the bridge crew, and, though Troi wasn't always featured as a therapist, some episodes did feature her counseling patients. Overall, it seemed to be a decade in which people were encouraged to be more open about their inner states.

Good point about Chuck, too. It's ironic and a little disingenuous that he was accorded such respect after he left active duty. Since he was off center stage, the writers could do what they wanted with him--and, in, Levitz's case, that meant developing him in ways that probably wouldn't have happened if he'd remained on active duty. He was a husband and instructor--an adult. I always loved the idea that the fat guy got the girl, but he had to give up being a Legionnaire to do so.

Chuck and Lu definitely got a lot of respect in their time with the Legion Academy.

I always found it interesting that Levitz built them up so much, but basically ignored Tenzil.

Yeah, Levitz really dialed things up to 11, didn't he? Don't get me wrong - I think it really helped define the generation of the end of the S/LSH run and set the tone for the Baxter series, but its a marked difference from what came before. To that point, I'm finding that Ayla's journey away from Brin to be fascinating - that she was so "in love" with him that her viewing him hugging her sister in law in a stressful situation so damages her relationship that she quits over it.

A few random thoughts on other Legionnaires, my own fanon interpretation, obviously, and with a mild focus on the relationship dynamics.

Saturn Girl

Titanian society is all about the mind, not the body, and marriages involving up to a dozen people exist, with little or no regard for gender or even physical intimacy. In some cases, quite controversially, a Titanian family might include the preserved thoughts and memories of members whose physical bodies have passed on, kept alive *literally* in the minds of their extended families, but this is something not shared idly with members of other species, as it is a source of conflict. (At what point, for instance, is the mentality of a dead Titanian overriding the desires and 'mental space' of living children of that family, impinging on their rights, coloring their views and compromising their self-identity?) Imra had a rare physical hankering to have no part of this quiet cerebral 'life of the mind,' and to go out into the *real* physical universe, with all it's sweaty scary unruly sapients and their messy minds. Her affection for Garth has a lot to do with how comfortable he is with *who* he is. Many sapients lack the self-confidence to date a telepath, and spend too much time second-guessing their every thought and feeling, but Garth has a certain refreshing directness, living a mental life that is, to put it charitably, unexamined. He can doubt himself, at times, but does not spend much time in self-reflection or flogging himself with guilt, resolving to 'do better next time' if he feels that he has not performed up to his own expectations. To a telepath, who has to listen to all of these doubts and fears and regrets, his usually rock-solid self-image is a relief, since a less self-assured mind could wear her mental endurance down and affect her own mental health, as it did to an extent when he did in fact become overwhelmed by the stresses of Legion leadership...

Cosmic Boy

Rokk's teen years were those of a celebrity athlete, and he had an entourage of enthusiastic young adults of both genders pretty much just living and partying 24/7 in his corporate-sponsored luxury digs. But nobody stays on top forever, and he was out like bell-bottoms when the new champion won the title. He left Braal bitter about how suddenly his star fell, somewhat jaded by how he went from top of world to a 'washed-up has-been' at the tender age of not-even-20, and most especially how his so-called friends had all lost his number the second he was no longer the hot thing. He had no concept of a real relationship, despite a chequered history with the physical side of things, and had no idea what to take of Lydda's aggressive play for him, at first dismissing her as 'just another fan who wants to get with the celebrity.' His opinion changed when she helped found the Subs, refusing to slink back home after her rejection, but actively pursuing a hero's life, even if she couldn't 'have him.' He learned that she wasn't just a 'creepy fangirl,' but a relentless force of nature who had planned out her life-goals, and was knocking them down. Even when she was temporarily stymied, such as by her initial rejection from the Legion, she pivoted and sought another route to her eventual goals, and she would not be stopped. Coming from a solo sport, where he alone called the shots one he was on the courts (even if a team of coaches and management got him onto that court), he found it challenging to lead a fractious team of fellow teens who often had no experience working with others, or, in some cases worse, conflicting experiences and instincts (in the case of SP trained Colossal Boy and former gang-member, Ultra Boy, for instance, who had very different ideas how to handle things). In that respect, he finds his relationship with Lydda a breath of fresh air. He doesn't have to do much more than show up, she drives most decisions, and it came as no surprise to him that when he considered semi-retiring to teach at the Academy, she chose to remain an active Legionnaire, putting the lie to all who thought she had only eyes for Rokk, and pursued Legion membership just to 'get with him.' Instead, she was going to remain a Legionnaire, even if Rokk was no longer an active member, and pursuing friendships of her own, such as with Shadow Lass, which she has done as tactically as everything else in her life, since their powers synergize well.

Karate Kid

It takes more to be a crime-lord than punches and kicks, no matter how expertly delivered, and few but Projectra know that the Black Dragon had his son and heir ruthlessly skilled in other means of making his body a weapon, to both resist and perform acts of espionage, seduction and assassination. He was honed to be a predator in all ways, to seize any advantage, and to be utterly immune to attempts to do the same to him in turn. His affection for Projectra developed over time as he came to recognize that this woman, with a power so finely tuned towards deception, was almost utterly guileless. She had all of the power, but very little inclination to deceive, having grown up in a monarchy with little need for politicking or dissembling, accustomed to simply speaking her mind, and expecting an honest response from those she encountered. Val found that unforgivably na?ve at first, but came to find it charming, and very much what he strove for in his life after the cold eyes and harsh lessons of his father?s tutors.

Princess Projectra

Projectra spent a fair bit of her childhood tending to her mother, whose health was fragile. It was something of a guilty relief when her mother finally lost her long battle, and Projectra realized that she had missed her own childhood, and had little in common with the others in her court, who had such trivial and petty interests, to her mind. To them, she seemed overly serious, just as, to her, the peers meant to be her friends seemed instead shallow and selfish and spoiled. So when the option to travel to Earth and learn more of the United Planets of which Orando was a part, she lobbied her father relentlessly for the opportunity, knowing that he could resist her nothing. Her father was apopleptic to learn that she had joined 'some teenaged superhero cosplay thing' mere days after arriving on Earth, but he was not going to show weakness by letting his people know that anything she had done was not according to his wishes. He later came to a better understanding of what the Legion represented, and was proud of her, even as he fretted for her safety. Then he had new things to fret about, as she 'fell in with that no-good crimelord's son...'

Shadow Lass

Talokk VIII has some strong gender roles, but they have nothing to do with one's physical gender. As Shadow Champion, Tasmia is very much 'the man,' and would be expected in her culture to attract the attention of other women, or men who occupy traditionally female roles in Talokkian culture. That she has chosen Mon-El, who is seen as a physical powerhouse and codes as 'male' by Talokkian standards, is a minor controversy among older stuffier traditionalist Talokkians, and held up as a transgressive blow against 'the old ways' by a younger disaffected minority. Shady cares nothing for any of this. She's not 'making a statement' or 'flouting tradition.' The heart wants what the heart wants, even a warrior's heart like hers.

Her new strategic friendship with Lydda she finds amusing, since some other Legionnaires seemed to dismiss Lydda as having only come to Earth 'to be with Rokk' and only eventually become a Legionnaire because 'she's the bosses girlfriend.' Shady knows all too well from the judgement she sometimes encounters from her own people not to dismiss someone based on their relationship choices, and coming from the tradition she does, the idea that a woman might aggressively pursue a man seems right and proper to her.

You want something, you make a bold play for it. You don't wait around passively and hope for them to make the first move! What kind of weak-minded twaddle is that?

Mon-El

It would come as a surprise to even those who know him, that Mon likes 'bad girls,' so Shady, a violent barbarian leader, suits his fancy, even if he's a gentle explorer by nature. He developed this preference after 1000 years in the Phantom Zone, where the only female company was that of former criminals sentenced to the Zone, and outside of the Zone, it's utterly vital that he attaches himself to someone as physical and sensual and earthy as Tasmia, someone able to draw him into fully immersing himself in this world of flesh and food and matter, and not returning to the ephemeral Zone in his head, where centuries passed like days, and time lost all meaning. He was stuck there, among other reasons not because Superboy 'forgot about him (for ten centuries?!),' because the Zone was inaccessible (believed destroyed) for centuries, and only Bgtzln tech made it re-accessible ('come back into phase-synch'), in the 30th century.