Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Best Fatal Five

Apologies if this has been done before.
If only one version of the character applies, please comment.

I put an option for "anyone else" for anyone but the original five... just for the sake of completion, I really doubt anyone is going to take that option.

I chose Validus because I just love the concept. Specifically pre-Crisis and before we learn his origins.
He's basically Godzilla for superheroes. Not really a bad guy but a hulking force of nature which you can only hope to steer in the direction you want.
I like that he's treated (or mis-treated) as a pet by the rest of his team. I like that he's even a threat to pre-Crisis Superboy. I like that even when he talks he doesn't really say much.
I said before his origins because knowing where he comes from takes away something from him. There's this giant monster who is stronger than a Kryptonian and shoots lightning from his brain! Where does he come from? What are you going to do when a thing like that shows up!?

Emerald Empress is by far the one with the most screen time and characterization, even if she's overshadowed by the Emerald Eye (to the point that the reboot version isn't really the Empress); I liked the cartoon's idea to make her the leader to shake things up.

Tharok is awesome in the 60s and 70s but he gets less and less interesting in my opinion. Why they didn't lean on a rivalry with Brainiac 5 is beyone me, but maybe it's a little too obvious.

Mano is pretty unremarkable for me pre-Crisis, but in the Reboot he gets the best introduction out of everybody thanks to appearing first. I think they should've done the same with all the five... each member shows up and is a threat for the entire Legion, imagine the impact when they finally team up.

Persuader might be the blandest one for me. If the Empress is overshadowed by the Eye, Persuader is 99% interesting because of his awesome weapon. Plus I never liked the name: if you have to explain it every time it's not a good name!

I have no opinion on the various replacements, none of them says anything to me. Isn't it odd that we got new people instead of estabilished big Legion villains? Say, have Nemesis Kid or Regulus replace one of the original five?

Best Fatal Five single choice
	Emerald Empress
	Mano
	Persuader
	Tharok
	Validus
	Anyone else
Votes accepted starting: 06/20/21 12:26 AM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Emerald Empress is my queen, so I can't choose anyone else as favorite, obviously. She's just got great attitude, and great power to back it up (and a tiny smattering of greater-than-human strength, so that she's not *completely* useless when her toy is taken out of the equation).

Tharok *could* be one of the greats, if they leaned into his 'Dark Man' persona, where he crapped out a clone to cause trouble for the Legion, and then wandered off and got up to shenanigans completely unbothered by the Legion, while the Dark Man was creating the League of Super-Assassins, an entire *team* of villains to threaten the Legion! What was Tharok Prime doing during that time? Don't know. Neither does the Legion... (Sinister chuckle.) He could be *great* as a behind-the-scenes sort, who, belatedly, one finds out has his fingers in all sorts of pies. (Where did the Dark Circle get that reliable cloning technology, one ponders. Was the entire Dark Circle just another thing that Tharok kind of threw at the Legion, like the League of Super-Assassins, while off doing his own thing? Is he in cahoots with the shadowy Gil'Dishpan? Having a shadow war for behind-the-scenes control with the Dominators? So much potential!)

Mano and Persuader, unfortunately suffer from the nature of their powers. The Atomic Axe and Mano's deadly touch are just narratively dead weight. Either they straight up *murder* one or more Legionnaires in their every appearance, or they bumble about uselessly, failing to actually hit anyone, for the entire appearance, while people talk, talk, talk about how 'deadly' they are, while they flail around like blindfolded kindergarteners trying to smack a pinata full of candy. Shooter was 14 when he made them, and it probably didn't occur to him that they'd never be able to live up to the powers that he gave them. Persuader at least as a small saving grace in that he can do other stuff with his axe *and* was a super-strong crime boss with his own criminal flunkies, back in the day, allowing him to be used in a 'Starfinger' type role. He's also got story potential. Are there other ancient ubertech weapons with alliterative cosmological monikers like the Atomic Axe? A Solar Spear? A Cosmic Crossbow? Were they made for a purpose, and will the Persuader ever get called to the principal's office when that destined purpose arises (or it's creators return?). Would said destined purpose actually be something like a space Camelot legend, with the Atomic Axe being some alien races version of Excalibur, and their ancestors would groan to find out that this thug has their holy weapon, and that their once-and-future depends on this chucklehead doing the right thing at the right time? (Shenanigans ensue!)

Mano? Utterly useless. He either kills someone, or sucks. And so far, he sucks. And I don't *want* him to kill anyone, since establishing his villain cred is worth exactly none of the Legion, IMO, not even my very least favorite! If his power 'evolved' and he disintegrated (his touch turned on himself in a moment of despair) and became an anti-energy being like Wildfire, an 'evil version' like Lightning Lord and Saturn Queen are 'evil versions' of Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl, and he could then fly around and shoot destructive energy beams, he's at least be *useful.* But as he is, he's a waste of space and my least favorite of the Five.

Validus, I like as a tragic monster, exploited by Tharok, and not at all as the 'missing Ranzz twin' or whatever. Not every one of Levitz' ideas knocked my socks off, and that one didn't wow me. There's a ton of stuff left unknown about him. His size-changing. Never really confirmed, and yet sometimes he's nine feet tall, and other times twenty (or more!). His ability to never stay imprisoned. Does Tharok bust him out when he needs him, or does he have some sort of secret patron, or even unknown power that allows him to slip free from even the most thorough attempt at sealing him away?

Well his hand can blow up planets, so you could use that to establish his badassery withouth killing individual Legionnaires. Have him be the one who blew up Kid Psycho's planet or something.

Well said on both points.


That would be nice to address, although it's common for most giant monsters. The most extreme case for the Legion has to be the Super Moby Dick of Space, that thing HAS to be a size-changer!!!


I think the ability is "how the heck do you imprison a monster that is stronger than pre-Crisis Superman?" :-)

By the way, did we ever get the chance to see Superman vs Validus in any continuity? He was at least three or four times stronger than Superboy, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he was stronger than Superman.
Not that Validus needs to be "the strongest evah!!!" to be interesting, just curious.

Mano's Reboot version was great, at least until DNA brought him back inexplicably. Before though, the tortured soul who wanted revenge on McCauley for selling weapons that decimated his world... and who turned on Tharok when he realized Tharok was about to murder innocents in order to start a war.

Empress in the Reboot was icky compared to Preboot.

On average I pick Empress, as she's generally quite formidable in all other appearances.

Emerald Empress, original version, although Cera Kesh was good, just not as developed. Sexy, delightfully wicked, power hungry and a haunting death.

The Persuader had a pretty good story as written by Gail Simone, but otherwise didn't have much personality. Validus was a great monster, but mindless, and I could never get my head around how you live with your kid who was once that monster.

Mano's reboot version was indeed a plus for that character. Tharok never made much of an impact - how smart was he?

I think I will have to go with the Empress, as I've liked most of the incarnations of the character, mainly from the Levitz written stories (although, I wasn't so much a fan of the reboot Empress of Venegar), both in the Pre-Reboot stories, as well as the version we received in the retroboot Annual. In the context of the FF, she has always seemed to me to be the charismatic leader of the group, and was quite dangerous overall.

Set's take on Tharok is right on - I feel like he could have been more had the Dark Man concept been taken further, but he never really got to the level of villainy that I would ascribe to the leader of a group like this.

I was introduced to Mano in the Reboot version, and that version always came off as tragic and sympathetic. That being said, he was kind of a one trick pony.

Validus is a cool concept, but felt that mainly he was a Godzilla type character.

And that leads to Persuader, who I felt was mainly hired muscle with a cool axe, so he's on the bottom of the list.

So Empress is my vote.

Persuader was always in my opinion the easiest to beat. Generally, one just has to disarm him. Or hit him with ranged attacks

Though the Reboot version was made more dangerous? he cut Ayla?s lightning? but still, not quite as formidable as most of the others

Well he's super-strong so it's still not a cakewalk, but you'r probably right... as long as the writer forgets that Mano is supposed to have super-fast reflexes. Which is typically what happens, the last time I remember him showing off that ability was in the Shooter run.

Does Persuader have the ability to call the axe back to him? It might have been only in the cartoon.


Speaking of which: in addition to the good idea of having Emerald Empress being the leader, another think I really liked from the cartoon was the alien design for Tharok and Persuader! Even Mano looked a bit more alien than usual. It made them stand out a little more.
Really the only downside of the cartoon version of the Fatal Five was that they were really overused in the first season.

I believe he is supposed to have some sort of psychic link to the Axe, but I'm not sure if that's ever really been explored or developed. Is it a property of the Axe, and did it just imprint on him because he was the first dude to find it? Or do they 'get along' because the Axe was created by violent psychos who believe that might makes right, and so the Axe likes the cut of his jib? (And it was locked away not to save for same later need, but because it was scary and gravitated to bad guys?) Or is the psychic link a property of him, like his enhanced strength? (And is the enhanced strength actually a property of him, or something that came with the Axe? So many questions!)


Yeah, making various 'human' aliens a bit more alien is always fun. It is the case that many of the 'aliens' of the Legion's future do seem to be just humans who settled on alien worlds (Winathians, Titanians, Braalians, Carggites, Imskians, Orandans, Xanthuans, etc.), so it's entirely possible that Persuader, Mano, Empress and Tharok all are of Earth-descent, however many generations removed, but it makes it more interesting if they aren't.

In one of my fanfic, I had Tharok's organic side look like a smaller more gracile version of Validus (three-fingers, visible brain instead of nose and eyes, small fangs), and had them come from the same planet, just to tie them together and mix things up.

At least some versions of the Persuader are depicted as coming from a heavy gravity world, which is what explains his strength. But yeah, his connection with the axe is one of the biggest things in Legion history that one would think should be explained but never has. I still think connecting it somehow to the Atomic Knights makes a lot of sense.

Sarya is the only one to deserve the name Empress. Cera was good, but not good enough. The reboot Empress was a different character.... too much sadic and psico. The new origin of Sarya in the rebirth version, was a very thriller twist... maybe she was a Projectra relative... and never explain why she was looking for Supergirl for revenge. All this is lost in limbo after the infamous Bendis Legion.

In the SW6 series, Cosmic Boy used magnetism to grab hold of the Axe... and the Axe began flying around with him in tow. What's not clear is if the Persuader was controlling the Axe's path, or if it was flying on its own.

I've always thought this as well. Each member should be established as a threat powerful enough to take on the entire Legion by themselves, and then they team up...

On Validus

I've definitely become less enamored of the Darkseid-based origin for him as time has gone on. There's also been an annoying tendency to weaken him over the decades. But, yeah, I absolutely love the original not-really-evil-but-massively-destructive-force-of-nature portrayal of him, powerful enough to swat Kryptonians around. I kind of like the idea of the threeboot/retroboot that he's considered some sort of "god of lightning" that has a whole cult grown up around him. I think that my preference would be to think of him as a more eldritch entity that sometimes possesses human hosts like Garridan than simply being a magically-transformed-and-sent-back-through-time Garridan.

I totally agree. The first year+ (until the Superboy story) of the reboot Legion was brilliant - slowly re-introducing Legionnaires and related characters in a gradual, organic way. Then they got impatient (low sales? personal favorites missing?) and jumped full-on to the Shooter era by introducing Jan as "Starfinger", a faux Sun-Eater threat, and the Fatal Five...Mano's membership of which made no sense in context. There were certainly some good stories after that point, but I believe that's where the reboot Legion lost its way.

Poor Mano. He's all, "I blew up a planet once! None of you other shmucks can claim that!"

And Sarya leans to Tharok, "Good lord, he's still talking about that..."

I have this image in my mind of someone bribing a guard on Takron Galtos to smuggle the atomic axe in and then being instructed to let it go and it immediately cutting through cells to rejoin the Persuader.

Does anyone else remember that? Was that not in the comics but in the cartoon? Or am I mis-remembering some other object?

I remember that time the Legion find the FF on a planet they have claimed (made?) for themselves and the team facing Validus, who is just ignoring him, destroy something they think is a weapon only to find out it is just a big rattle and then wondering what to do next decide they had better play with him.

That scene was from the first arc of the SW6 Legionnaires series. Leland McCauley was the one who had bribed the guard.

I've always thought the F5 made better sense as a team than as individual villains. My impression of the group was formed by "The Fatal Five Who Twisted Time," Superboy #198, in which they came very close to killing Superboy and wiping out the Legion before it began. The Persuader and Emerald Empress made quite a team and even got away. Tharok and Mano's arrogance led them to stay too long in the empty lot of the Legion's clubhouse, resulting in their capture. And Validus, too, got away. Hey, if three of the villain team escape, they must be pretty badass.

That said, if I had to pick one as my favorite, it would be Mano. He's a psychopath, sure, but his ability and willingness to destroy his home planet because they shunned him plays off of all sorts of dark childhood fantasies. (You're going to reject me? Well, I'll just kill the entire planet.) It's really frightening if you think about a childlike creature having that much power. (See also Billy Mumy in The Twilight Zone.)

Sure, he had to be toned down in order to remain a recurring character. But still, that glass helmet obscuring a dark face made him visually appealing. One of my favorite Mano appearances is from S/LSH # 219, in which Light Lass and Sun Boy invade a dwelling that mimics the toxic atmosphere of Angtu, Mano's home planet. Light Lass gets a glimpse of Mano's true face, but we never do. It was a wonderful mystery, a la Dr. Doom.

As for the other characters, I also liked the Persuader because he looked like such a badass in # 198 --and he could certainly control the ax whether he held onto it or not. (That's how he got Superboy to strike himself in the head with the ax.) I agree that the name "The Persuader" isn't the most dramatic, but one gets used to such things. "The Beatles" is a rather silly name, too.

I didn't have much of an opinion of the Emerald Empress because she was a girl (hey, I was nine when I read that story), but she certainly came off the best of any of the Five in her solo appearances. She had ambitions and the power to pull them off. And sex appeal, too. Who knew green hair would be so sexy?

Tharok--he was the leader of the group and I related to him as much as I did any authority figure--which is to say not at all. I wondered just how much of him was half-robot--his penis? his tongue? Such unresolved mysteries undercut any seriousness I had about the character.

Validus was extremely frightening in Superboy # 203, when he killed Invisible Kid--but he was just a mindless pawn. The Darkseid revelation made everything about his existence tragic. I would have preferred it been left that way. Garth and Imra did not need to know that their offspring had killed one of their friends, and their son did not need to return to normal as if nothing had ever happened. I wonder if he remembered anything about his time as a monster--do any of us remember squashing an ant? Some unresolved story potential there. In any case, not everyone needs a happy ending.

And so it was! Thanks Chaim, all is clear now. Of course a couple of issues later Tenzil bites right through the axes handle destroying it so that was the end of that anyway.

Good points He Who. Mano's design was pretty cool and somewhat uncommon. I remember that bit in #219 and yeah it was good. "His face! Gasp! I never expected ... that!" That whole story was good, being one of those cases where the heroes might have been better off leaving the bad guys alone but instead their heroics only caused more rage and vengeance against them.

And good to see you are still around He Who.

Thanks, stile. It's good to be around.

Superboy # 219 did humanize the Fatal Five in the sense of showing them wanting to live normal lives. But these guys are still killers and cutthroats. Earlier, the Persuader had hacked Duplicate Boy nearly to death. The Legion was right to go after them. It's fun to think that if they had left the bad guys alone, the bad guys would have retired--but the Emerald Empress (and possibly Tharok) had too much ambition for that.

I always thought Mano's membership made sense on two fronts:

1) Chu's cover story: we need powerful villains to help you! (in this sense, Empress was the one that didn't make sense - she's an assassin and killer, what can she do against the Sun-Eater?)

2) Personal motivation: Mano could have seen the Legionnaires as standing in his way of revenge vs. McCauley. And Chu could have promised him a pardon and/or resources to get to McCauley. Whether she would have kept her promise is another story... that Mano would turn on Tharok to prevent widespread death of innocents on Braal/Titan, maybe Chu didn't foresee that.