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If I'm remembering correctly, the original Legion origin was a Johnny come lately, added on maybe a dozen years after the first appearance of the Legion.
The origin placed such importance on the roles of the three founders ... Did we even know that Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Cosmic Boy WERE the group's founding members before that story?
It seems that they may have been chosen as the Legion founders based on their central roles in early Superboy/Legion stories.
Since that Legion origin, the founders have been given a great deal of honor. At times the reverence for these three has seemed to almost created a class distinction among members.
Has that one story, originally published as an add on to an 80 page giant reprint book, had undue impact on Legion history?
Don't get mad ... I'm not trying to trash the big three, but I am interested in the thoughts of Legion readers on this topic.
Steve Lightle
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Steve, I can't remember off-hand if reference was made to the founders during the Adventure era or not. I do remember that their status was referred to over the years on occasion, but I think it was during Paul Levitz' second stint that they really seemed to have a special stature accorded to them. The time when you were on the book was pretty thick with it, when they retired and took on their Advisor status or whatever it was called. Cosmic Boy in particular was elevated to a higher plane altogether during the TMK era, when he became the "heart" of the Legion. It always rang slightly hollow to me because he was frankly never one of the characters who stood out from the pack for most of the preboot Legion's run. He had a spotlight here and there but they were pretty infrequent. I suppose if the original plans to use the Legionnaires title as a retelling of the early days of the preboot Legion had gone through his role in the earlier era would've been punched up a lot.
Matt, still eagerly waiting on # 24.
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Originally posted by SteveLightle:
Did we even know that Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Cosmic Boy WERE the group's founding members before that story?
It seems that they may have been chosen as the Legion founders based on their central roles in early Superboy/Legion stories.
Since that Legion origin, the founders have been given a great deal of honor. At times the reverence for these three has seemed to almost created a class distinction among members.
Has that one story, originally published as an add on to an 80 page giant reprint book, had undue impact on Legion history?
Don't get mad ... I'm not trying to trash the big three, but I am interested in the thoughts of Legion readers on this topic.
Steve Lightle They were certainly the first Legionaires to appear in Adventure 247. Not proof that they were the founders, but you could imply that they were.
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Now wouldn't that make a great story - The Forgotten Founder(s). Sort of like Pete Best. Somebody who was in at the beginning, crucial to the establishment of the image and purpose, but cast aside by history. Maybe he/she died, or left over a difference of opinion, or a scandal - and the other three tacitly agreed to a conspiracy of silence over the true beginnings.
Holy Cats of Egypt!
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I can't say I really recall the precise history, but I thought their status as founders was implied for much of the regular run.
Overall, I'd say that the recogntion of a founder is good in that it cements a character into the group. Unfortunately, the founder group is limited to the original three. it's too bad there wasn't another group as honored as the founders--maybe there's potential for something like that withthe Legion Lost team or the team that stayed together and built Legion World during the interim.
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Steve, you’re pretty much have it, as I recall it. I recall that when SB 147 came out (the 80pg[?] giant with origin story,) there really wasn't any sense of surprise that LL, SG, & CB were the first members. It seemed natural. Having started comics a year before Adv 300, that trio was always front and center back then in the earliest Legion stories, and by inference in most fans minds with the earliest beginnings of the team itself, though it was never really shown or hinted at. As you suggest, it was just assumed by most fans these three were involved to some degree, if not necessarily limited to them. Bridwell wrote that SB 147 origin story, and he also wrote Adv 350 & 351 a year & half earlier which introduced RJ Brande in a cameo as the Legion bankroller but without any expanding on the Legion’s origin. With SB 147, he utilized his character as the basis for the Legion's origin, which in my strong opinion should have written by Shooter, or at least Hamilton. Even though it’s classic Legion lore now, I never cared for it. Accoring to accounts, Bridwell was a true polymath, but his writing never thrilled me, especially in comparison to the concurrent Shooter, or the recent Hamilton. But to my best recollection, the team’s origin was never really identified or referenced prior to these Bridwell pieces. However, I do recall in recent readings (probably in a Seigal or Hamilton story,) a Legionnaire saying something like “when Lightning Lad joined the Legion,” suggesting that the team was already existing when he joined. A typical Legion throwaway background reference, and there may be other retroactive “errors” like that in the early years. I don’t have handy those brief Legion bios that were originally pubbed in Superman Annual 4 and updated in ADV 316 & 365, but there might be slight inferences in those to the team’s origin, but maybe not. I think if would be a fun project for any Legion researcher to look through the work prior to SB 147, for any references or inferences to the team’s origin that either “support” or contradict the Bridwell version. I no longer have the comics to do so. 
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Steve, how could we ever be mad at you? When you're back drawing the Legion? {g}
The original three were quite exalted, and not simply by being at the heart of special attention, such as sidebar mini-series runs, or being referred to that way by others. It was also by "law."
Later versions of the preboot Legion Constitution were written (by Levitz) so as to make these three, even though two of them weren't active, into a "Committee on Constitutional Matters." They were able to override the current Legion Leader by two of three votes, or to remove the Leader or dissolve the Legion by unanimous vote. It named Garth, Imra, and Rokk specifically, and had any one of them who was no longer a reservist succeeded by the next current or former/reservist Legionnaire, in order of seniority as to his or her LSH membership.
Reep refers to Legion writer Bridwell as a "polymath," and from all accounts, he was indeed that versatile and well-informed on a host of topics. Levitz admitted to falling short on some counts, such as the details of various sciences. Yet they aren't at all in the same league as to serial storytelling abilities. Paul blew E. Nelson away.
Hamilton, for one, seems to have been too vain to ever admit such weaknesses. If you've ever read any of his pulp SF stories, they're leaking logical oil in every direction from their scientific holes. Even by the lower standards of the '20s and '30s, where Hugo Gernsback (yes, the icon of the Hugo Awards) let his writers get away with lousy science. Great written drama, but hugely distracting in that sense for those who even took only high-school chemistry or physics.
Some of this carried over into the few "Adventure" Legion stories of his that I've read ... but the kids of the '60s didn't particularly notice or care, methinks. This was 20 years before "The Star Trek Technical Manual" and endless fan dissection of such pseudoscience on the Net.
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As Reep points out, the notion of Garth, Rokk, and Imra as the three founders contradicts the earlier reference to Garth's telling Rokk and Dirk (I believe) his origin when he joined the Legion. It's funny how that little point gets pretty much ignored, while many people make such a big deal out of Brainiac Five's appearance in the flashback to Superboy's induction (which supposedly establishes Supergirl as an earlier member than Superboy).
I believe the basics of the Legion origin (with the founding trio) was actually first established in a letter column or text feature, though I can't confirm this, since I rely on Archives for my Adventure era knowledge.
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Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
Unfortunately, the founder group is limited to the original three. Well, not exactly. There's also the founders of the TMK Legion: Rokk, Cham, and (maybe) Jo. They was never much importance placed upon that fact, but they were still technically its founders.
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Wanderer
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I don't think that origin had "undue impact" on Legion history. I've always liked that sense of history and "humble beginnings" when the club was just three. There'd have to be founders of some kind regardless of the origin (unless all the members joined at once) so these three are as good as any others.
While the three founders were certainly exalted, I always saw them as another clique / dynamic within the team like the newer kids Wildfire/ Dawnstar/ Blok/ White Witch were a clique as was Mon-el/ Jo/ Tasmia/ Tinya. Each had their own feel to them and the Founders had an air of respect.
I also agree with Big Bad that as elevated Rokk's position was in TMK, the "founders" of that series were Reep/ Rokk/ Jo. Imra and Garth were retired on Winath most of the time and while still highly regarded, didn't dominate the team at all.
There's also the fact that Superboy and Supergirl were part of the team back in the day and their prominence balanced out if not overshadowed the three founders.
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Thanks for bringing this topic here too Steve as well as LegionPics. Glen Cadigan from the LegionPic groups provided us with the following text piece, written by Bridwell for a reprint of the Legion's origin for a Secret Files issue in the 70's: "The Legion origin was first published in Giant Superboy # 147 (G-47) May-June, 1968. When we began to get material together for an all- Legion issue, we discovered that there had never actually been an origin dreamed up for that organization. So I got busy and wrote one.
There have been some drastic changes in the origin stories of the individual heroes, though. In the first Legion tale, which appeared in Adventure Comics # 247 (April, 1958), Saturn Girl said, "The scientists of Saturn, who are experts in telepathy, taught me how to read minds and also cast my mental commands anywhere." Cosmic Boy thought, "Special serums gave me magnetic eyes of super-power." And Lightning Boy (not called Lightning Lad in this story) revealed, "My hands are like the positive and negative poles of a battery. Each time I clap them together, a super-lighting flash leaps forth."
In Superman # 147 (August, 1961) (do you get the feeling there are a lot of 47's connected with the Legion?), the adult Legion and the Legion of Super-Villains were introduced. In this one, Lightning Lord said that he and his brother, Lightning Man (formerly Lightning Lad), had gained their power while exploring some woods on the planet Korbal. A lightning monster had blasted them, transferring some of its power into them. By this time, Lightning Man was no long clapping his hands to get lightning, but Cosmic Man was still using his magnetic eyes.
He was using his hands, though, in Giant Superman Annual # 4 (1961), when a special feature on the origins of the Legionnaires was published. Lightning Lad's origin was the one given in Superman: "Lightning Lad gained mastery of lightning when a blast from a lightning monster on the planet Korbal freakishly electrified his body." As for the others, "Cosmic Boy possesses the power of
super-magnetism, which he inherited from his parents on the planet Braal. Evolution has given Braalians the power to magnetically battle metal monsters who roam that world." And "Saturn Girl comes from Saturn, where all people can perform amazing mental feats."
In Adventure # 308 (May, 1963), after Lightning Lad was killed in action (he was later revived), his sister, Lightning Lass, impersonated him. Two versions of his origin were given. In one, he was in a space-flier that ran out of power, forcing him to land on Korbal. He tried to get the lightning monsters to shoot their bolts at it to recharge it, but instead, they aimed at him, from all sides. This neutralized the bolts, charging the youth with lightning power greater than theirs. (Absurdly, he was already wearing his lightning insignia in this origin.) Toward the end of the story, the scene was repeated, but with the addition of his sister. Not only was the early account by Lightning Lord ignored, but he himself was completely omitted!
I had added R.J. Brande in a story I wrote for Adventure # 350. I did my best to tie together all the loose ends in writing [their]origin." [Edit: Did not get all of Glen's post the first time.]
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Questioning the founders's place is a fascinating concept. In the preboot, someone could easily have written a "true origin" that showed an earlier, failed Legion. Perhaps, either they were killed in their first mission or disgraced themselves by doing something morally wrong. If the second had happened, they would've made great villains with a cool vendetta against the Legion. The accepted origin, while true, could've been so widely spread by Brande's spin doctors that everyone would forget about the first, failed version. Another possibility could be that there were several other heroic super-powered teens aiding in Brande's rescue that the official origin leaves out. Perhaps, they were either not 'Hollywood'-looking enough for the publicity machine, or they had blemishes in their backgrounds that made them a risk. This is a really plausible scenario. (I wonder if Pete Best and Stu Sutcliffe even got mentioned in 'official' documentaries like the "Beatles Anthology" of several years ago.) Looks like some of our Legion creators might have missed the boat! My guess is a ret-con like this would've worked better in the preboot where there was some murkiness than in the more streamlined reboot. Maybe an Elseworlds waiting to happen? <Arches eyebrow> Fascinating!
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Thanks, LL, for posting those key recountings of the trio's origins. When one read's them in text like that the uniqueness of those versions stand out and prompt some "What If's." One of my favorite ideas for an Elseworlds Legion series is the retelling of the general history of the Legion [What Marvel used to do often in their What If series] but with every Legionnaire rtetaining their very first appearance's powers, costume, name, etc. So it would include the specific Founders versions of Adv 247, "super" Star Boy, Swan's slightly pug-nosed Ultra Boy, Mystery Lad, Lone Wolf, maybe even keep Nemesis Kid, white-skinned Shadow Lass with her hair in bangs, ERG-1, etc, etc. It would fascinating for fans to see the these "era-frozen" Legionnaires interact with each other. Lardy, I've never considered those scenarios about the origin. Good ideas there, and they open a flood of possibilities that definitely have great Elseworlds potential. Unfortunately, the Elseworlds concept and "brand" still seems in limbo, but you never know. We need an elseworlds where Elseworlds exist!
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Originally posted by LARDLAD:
(I wonder if Pete Best and Stu Sutcliffe even got mentioned in 'official' documentaries like the "Beatles Anthology" of several years ago.)
In fact, Pete was on several songs included on the anthology. As I recall, he stood to make a fortune off his slight contributions to the Beatles' recorded history. Stu, as I recall, left the Beatles before the made any records. (I could be wrong; I don't think he's even on "My Bonnie," on which the group backed singer Tony Sheridan.) Of course, neither Pete nor Stu have been ignored by history. Most books and movies do include them. Stu especially was fondly remembered by the other Beatles; he was even included on the cover of Sgt. Pepper, five years after his death. As for the Legion having founders or early members forgotten by history, wasn't Kid Quantum I supposed to fill that role, preboot?
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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
In fact, Pete was on several songs included on the anthology. As I recall, he stood to make a fortune off his slight contributions to the Beatles' recorded history. [/QUOTE] Actually, my comment related to the TV documentary that was a companion (or were the CDs the companion?) to the CD set that was released. Unfortunately, I was without a VCR at the time and missed almost every bit of the three parts that aired. My point is the Anthology was the most widely-seen and most-sanctioned by the survivors (to my knowledge) of any documentary that's been made about them. I was wondering if Pete and Stu were therefore included in this "official" version.
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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Originally posted by He Who Wanders:
As for the Legion having founders or early members forgotten by history, wasn't Kid Quantum I supposed to fill that role, preboot? I've heard about this before, HWW...when did this appear? Was it an actual story? A Mayfair Games thing? A TMK ret-con? What?
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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I believe it was revealed in the pages of LEGIONNAIRES, but my preboot issues of that series are spotty. Anyone have further information?
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Originally posted by LARDLAD:
Actually, my comment related to the TV documentary that was a companion (or were the CDs the companion?) to the CD set that was released. Unfortunately, I was without a VCR at the time and missed almost every bit of the three parts that aired. My point is the Anthology was the most widely-seen and most-sanctioned by the survivors (to my knowledge) of any documentary that's been made about them. I was wondering if Pete and Stu were therefore included in this "official" version. Yes they were. I haven't seen the Anthology series since it came out (in '95?), but I remember George discussing Pete being replaced by Ringo. He acknowledged that it probably wasn't handled in the best way, but went on to say that history has shown Ringo to be the right drummer for the band (paraphrase). I believe Stu was acknowledge as co-inventor, with John, of the Beatles' name.
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But, in any case, the general public and more casual fans hve no idea who Pete and Stu are, so the same could certainly have been the case with the Legion...probably, moreso. Only a very small percentage of the UP would know about Founder(s) X if things were spin-doctored the way they can be.
(I'm not necessarily saying that Pete and Stu were actually spin-doctored out, but I've heard things that imply they were.)
Still "Lardy" to my friends!
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At LegionPics, I responded to this topic by saying that the Legion's origin is a great story, and those who are identified as founders makes perfect sense.
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I think that I was working on the Legion through one of the periods that most promoted the importance of the three founders. We did secret meetings between Brande, CB, LL, and SG, as well as conferring special powers upon the founding trio. They were even featured in a mini series of their own. I enthusiastically contributed to issues that focused on these characters, and enjoyed every minute of it ... but I can't help thinking that it all might have been different, if not for that one short origin story that was added on 10 years after the advent of the series.
I admit to a fondness for Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy, but I must admit to having never cared for Mr. Bridwell's Legion origin. I'm not sure why. I think that, having read several grand Legion adventures previously, I was expecting more somehow.
Well, that's my confession for today. I wonder how much trouble I'm getting myself into with this one. : )
Steve
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No Food, Water, Books for you! One year!
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Not much between despair and ecstacy
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Steve,
I, too, was disappointed in the Legion's origin. Let's face it: As stories go, it's not very good. The most dramatic moment -- the rescue of Brande -- occurs early in the story, and the rest is just exposition: Here's the Legion getting their clubhouse. Here's the Legion getting their powers. Here's the Legion getting deputized by the SP. Here's Triplicate Girl and Phantom Girl joining.
Yawn.
Bridwell certainly wrote better stories, including some a few years later during the ACTION run.
But, nevertheless, the origin served its purpose and gave us a basic foundation for what the Legion is about to this today.
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I still like the origin story but maybe it could start sooner than the trio saving Brande. Develop more of the characters of Garth, Imra and Rokk as they meet, each telling their stories and building up to the assassination attempt with clues given along the way, little incidents happening on the trip. Then you climax with the attempt on R.J.'s life and wind down with him thanking them and offering them the job.
I don't know if it has ever been retold that way but it would work for me. You don't have to start with the assassination and then go right into the recruiting.
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I liked the way the postboot origin was told in LSH # O. It started out with Garth, Ayla and Mekt on Korbal, then, at the moment they get fried by the lightning beasts, it jumps to Garth waking up from a coma months later. The assassination attempt on Brande is the midpoint of the story, and there is still some drama and character development as Triad tracks down his rescuers (including Garth in the clink). The ending consists of Brande extending his offer to the three teens. This ending lacks action (or, rather, violence), but it works in the context of the story -- there's a sense of hope in what the Legion is to accomplish, a true feeling of a beginning.
I look on LSH # 0 as the origin done "right."
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