Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Is WaK Brainy essentially the same character as Vril Dox II of L.E.G.I.O.N.?

I'm not saying there aren't any differences between them, but isn't WaK Brainy written a LOT like Dox? If I had to put my finger on it, I'd say that WaK Brainy reads like what a young Dox would've been like before we met him in L.E.G.I.O.N., and I can see the WaK version 'growing up' to be the exact same kind of character if he isn't there already.

I know it doesn't help that Kitson has drawn them both, and their haircuts and body shapes are remarkably similar in his interpretations. Is my opinion being influenced too much by that constant visual cue?

Am I hot or cold in seeing this comparison?

I would say you are dead on until I read this month's issue. In this issue, I see Brainy as being less manipulative. And I think that was the main thing with Vril Dox

Haven't read the recent issues, but does that really rule out WaK-Brainy as being kind of a proto-Vril?

No, it doesn't rule it out. I think that with the latest issue, you have Brainy moving away from the Vril model.

Spoilers, please?

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text"> After Mekt tells them about the threat, Cos sends Supergirl, Mon-el, Ultra Boy, and Brainy on a scouting mission. Brainy does ask "why me?" to which Cos replies "I need a skeptic." Brainy does go.</span></span>

I know that is not much to go on, but the feeling I got was that Brainy is more of a team player than before and certainly more so than Vril Dox ever was.

Well, I'm unconvinced that that makes Brainy a totally different character. Vril totally had to be in charge, but he was a grand manipulater. Maybe Brainy has an ulterior, more self-serving motive in going along with his arch-rival?

Anyone other than me or Quis have an opinion on this topic?

Alls I know is that I sure miss Brainy bowing his head and saying things like "I'm so sorry I'm descended from such an evil man!" and then crying!

Didn't Vril Dox II actually cry at some point during L.E.G.I.O.N. or R.E.B.E.L.S., or am I imagining that? Yeesh, it's been awhile!

so is this necessarily a bad thing? I don't buy a submissive smart guy. He has too much to do to worry about peoples feelings.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing, but there could potentially be the danger of a 'been there, done that' vibe if he becomes too similar to Vril. Granted newer readers wouldn't see the parallel, but there are a lot of us oldies still around who remember L.E.G.I.O.N. very well and very fondly.

I liked the Vril Dox Character in L.E.G.I.O.N but there were some really kookie elements to that book.

Which elements stand out as such? The soap-opery stuff? Overall, I think the quality was pretty well-maintained throughout its run (though Peyer was definitely the weakest link) and that Dox was a pretty compelling and unusual character at the time.

Now, it seems there are Vril Dox-like characters all over the place, including (from what I've heard) how they're writing Tony Stark these days. In Brainy's case it could be even worse when there's already been a Coluan of his lineage portrayed the same way.

I've always thought Brainy was likely *inspired* by Vril - taking over the UP because you can do better, you say? - but he doesn't quite have the personality to pull it off. He cares too much about the little people.

And the "little" people as well.

I think the tyranical baby just creeped me out a bit too much

It seems to me that Brainy and Vril are quite different in character, and the differences flow naturally out of their respective life stories. Sure, both are arrogant and manipulative and rudest to their closest acquaintances--but I think that's a necessary consequence of Smartest Guy In The Room Syndrome, regardless of their underlying personalities.

Vril was raised almost entirely (with the exception of the Durlan) by raging sociopaths, who showed him no more love or compassion than they showed anyone else. He was also light-years more intelligent than any other being around him...except for his father, who was one of the aforementioned sociopaths. Understandably, he developed a basic conviction that other people weren't like him, couldn't be like him, and therefore could never be trusted to choose to do what he thought was right. If people weren't forced or manipulated into doing good, they'd regress to their naturally vicious, selfish ways.

So, when Vril set out to fix the universe, he did it through law--a galactic police state to sweep away the crime and pointless violence which stem from chaos. And although he learned about the dark side of this political system when his son took over, I don't think he ever decided that it was a bad idea. He simply realized that a state which is too dependent on a single leader can be destabilized at that leader's whim; L.E.G.I.O.N. would be a much more powerful force for order if it was weaned from Dox and sustained by its own long-lasting principles.

Now Brainy pretty much lives in a post-L.E.G.I.O.N. society--in fact, as I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if the Science Police are descended from L.E.G.I.O.N. Law and order have won, and the only way a dissatisfied idealist could go is to push for more individual freedom.

Brainy, furthermore, thinks of himself as basically a normal or even subnormal guy. From what we've heard of his backstory he grew up on a planet of people smarter than him, and even if they treated him like crap he did receive some genuine affection from his mother. So I don't think he honestly believes, deep down, that he is better than or even smarter than the other Legionnaires. It must just be that they're not trying, which is why he's so infuriated by their stupidity and retaliates with constant jibes. Vril Dox didn't bother with that, because he knew the rest of the world were morons compared to him--would you bother dissing your dog because it couldn't follow your train of thought?

This attitude naturally inclines Brainy toward a liberal position. If he can figure out how to live his life better than the establishment can, then everyone can do so--he just has to get them to try, and make sure the establishment doesn't retaliate. I think he's far more idealistic and egalitarian than Cosmic Boy, and therefore shows much less common sense about the importance of keeping a bunch of superpowered teenagers under control. Brainy thinks they'll all behave themselves if they just realize it's necessary.

Brainy's also far less talented at manipulation than Vril, and for the same reason. When Brainy manipulates, it's short-term and he expects to be found out, because in the end everyone should realize that he's right anyway! Vril doesn't make that mistake--he keeps people fooled to their dying day, because he never trusts them to come round to his way of thinking in the end.

I like that. I'm not completely sure it's true, but I like it.

One other thing: I haven't read much with Vril in it, but based on my limited exposure I can't imagine him ever having the kinds of conversations Brainy had with Nura when he was a) reassuring her about the future of Naltor or b) reassuring her about being able to solve all the mysteries.

I'll have to trawl through my R.E.B.E.L.S. back issues, but I think you're right--even with Stealth, the closest thing he ever had to a life partner (without being mind-controlled), Vril never tried to comfort her about anything. Of course, Stealth was the one other person on the team who never needed comfort about anything.

Vril was only ever reassuring to people he didn't actually care for; it was just another form of manipulation to him.

I don't think you have to be submissive to be respectful and caring about other people's feelings.

Vril thinks people are incapable of choosing the right path on their own because they are sheep. So he uses manipulation to take advantage of this, gathering power in the hands of those he deems capable of deciding for them. The typical enlightened despot.

Brainy is a libertarian idealist who believes in that in an ideal situation people can decide for themselves. He's always plugged-in gathering info. B5 thinks given all the facts, people should agree (more or less) with him but this ideal world requires perfect information and he doesn't have the time and patience to bring the apes up to speed. So he just executes his plan hoping everyone will agree later.

Y'know, this thread is REALLY starting to make me miss Vril Dox and L.E.G.I.O.N.!

Before Zero Hour, Brainy was a lot less arrogant. He was still sarcastic and stand-offish in the Giffen/Beirbaum era, though some of that was due to age and the losses he'd endured (ie Laurel dumping him and having a kid with Rond Vidar). The SW-6 Brainy was clearly less snide, and more in the vein of the Silver Age Brainy (see, as a good example, Legionnaires #7-8)

I long blamed his snark infusion on Tom Peyer, who became one of the Legion writers after Zero Hour: he was also the writer of L.E.G.I.O.N. 's last year or two and the writer of R.E.B.E.L.S.; I can't remember if the letter I sent asking "When did Querl Dox get replaced by Vril Dox II?" was printed or not, but I remember asking that after his first few appearances.

Nowadays, I wonder if Waid played a part in making Brainy more arrogant, since his version of Brainy is even more like Vril than the Post-ZH one.

Still, since then I've decided I think he's more interesting with a bitter, manipulative, sarcastic side. It makes it all the more fascinating when someone (ie Laurel in the Post-ZH version, Nura in the Waid/Kitson version) gets under that shell.

Brainy has been softening over the last few issues. He certainly started out like a Vril clone, but appears to have abandoned (postponed?) his leadership grab. This could be preoccupation with Dream Girl or an acceptance that he would not be the best leader. Did Vril ever cede control willingly?

He is more interesting with the bitterness and sarcasm, if that isn't his only voice - I'm glad to see a few chinks in the armor.

You and me both. No fair of DC to give us a glimpse of the other L.E.G.I.O.N. members besides Dox in one panel of Infinite Crisis (the only thing in Infinite Crisis that I liked), and then send them back into oblivion.