Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Adventure Comics #516 - SPOILERS

Interesting ideas Set.
I flipped a coin as to whether to peg the guy with monical as Universo or the Super Companion kidnapper, Othar.
We just did a Bit's thread on Othar and the others a few months ago, so I went with him.

Really disliked this story. It represents everything that I fear for the new Legion. From the tiny (and inconsequential) retcons like Brande's weird speech impediment, through the uncertain question of whether or not Marla Latham was still his private secretary (I mean if so, then why the snake/naga guy now?) and on to the major retcon of the '6 minute War' being in the future rather than the past... change heaped upon change for no good reason. Why even bother to have claimed this is the 'original' Legion when nothing is cannon and everything is being retconned to fit the whim of what the writer wants to do today?

On Facebook Paul Levitz posted Notes on RJ Brande's speech pattern. Apparently he got some complaints about it. (I did find it not so good) Anyway, I asked if I could repost it here on Legion World and He said OK.

So, here it is:
A number of the commentators on ADVENTURE #516 are annoyed by R. J. Brande's speech pattern...enough that I went back and reread the story or two where my foggy memory thought I'd established it, long, long ago...and clearly the voice was more established in my head than on paper, so it's reasonable to react to it as a 'change.' (It's always reasonable to dislike things in stories--this is entertainment, and if you're not enjoy it your $4 worth, that's your privilege and the storyteller's failing.)

That said, I think it is a reasonable evolution from what was established. Brande's rich man-who-was-a-rogue backstory goes back at least to my collaboration with Walt 30-odd years ago, and if the man got more--eccentric--in his speech pattern over those years, that's not unusual--particularly for people in positions where the folks around them have to put up with them. Speech style evolves from circumstance, surroundings and education, and the more flamboyant personalities often express themselves in more personal styles. Politicians might be motivated to move their patterns closer to their constituents, tenured professors more prone to eccentric styles (think "Paper Chase"), and gazillionaires...well, we'll have to wait until they're real to see, I guess.

In general, the ADVENTURE stories do depart a bit from the absolute 1960s versions--otherwise why bother? The originals were brilliant pieces in their time, which is why so many of us care about them so powerfully, but they were of their time. I'm trying to tell this cycle of tales in a way that fits (loosely) with the complex continuity of recent DCU material, and to provide insight into the personalities of the Legionnaires as I see them using tools that were either unavailable to the original chroniclers (because of the short story structures, or belief that they were telling stories for young kids, or editorial styles of the time). Many of the bits pay off in the subsequent issues, or in the LEGION book itself, if I do it right.

And if I'm not doing it right, I'm sure you'll tell me.

Thanks for caring.

Thanks for getting the permission and posting this, Quislet.

It is a very clear statement of what Levitz is trying to accomplish with this version of the team. The approach is what our own Lard Lad labeled, some time ago, "an approximation" of the original Legion. It's been pretty clear from the stories published, for some time, that this is the approach being taken.

Why is it important that this to be stated clearly from the primary writer?

The argument against simply reguritating past stories was made by supporters of 5YL, the reboot, and the 3boot. Critics of each of those eras did not accept that argument. They instead railed on the creators for destroying the Legion and disrespecting the foundation the team was based on. From my perspective, those criticisms helped hasten the demise of each of those ventures. Editors threw the towel in midstream, and didn't allow stories to be finished. Shooter returned to the team with the promise to provide an approach of "organic change" from what Waid presented. Didio responded to the personality conflicts and sales by pulling the plug at issue #50, and telling us he chose it because it was a nice round number. That was insulting.

In the ultimate capitulation to those who could not or would not accept change, DC promised the return of the original team. Many of us saw that as an empty promise and didn't understand how it would be possible, given the myriad of changes in the DC universe and the comic book industry in the intervening years.

Perhaps the departures that Levitz gives us will be more gentle than previous ventures. Perhaps they will come closer to satisfying parts of the fan base than 5YL, reboot, or 3boot did. I certainly hope this run, and this approach, is successful. I hope it finds a wide audience. There is a point of integrity involved. It's important for Levitz to be clear about what he is doing. It's important that those of us who were loyal to the team after his departure aren't made to feel like schmucks for sticking with the team through thick and thin. His statements above go a long way toward re-establishing an honest communication with fans. I appreciate that.

I appreciate his comments as well.

However, I'm not sure I understand why it's important to make changes from what was established instead of just building upon those ideas and creating something from the inspiration.

Most of the changes seemed tacked on and not better and certainly not organic to the stories we've already been told...so why bother making said changes?

Instead of explaining how much different everything is now, I'd prefer it if DC would say this is where we started, now let's build great stories upon that foundation!

I agree with Nighty. Change for the sake of change isn't good enough. If the change added new and interesting ideas to the established characters and history, fine. But I see no point in changing a now dead character's speech patterns. Every other sentient being in Legion universe speaks perfect English/Interlac EXCEPT RJ Brande, who always spoke perfectly clearly before? And I don't buy Paul's explanation that eccentric people change their speech patterns with age. His omission of articles and conjunctions, etc. just sound like broken English from a non-native speaker, not eccentricity. I have an eccentric elderly aunt. She speaks very bluntly and doesn't care what anyone else thinks, but she doesn't leave out parts of speech.

I'm getting tired of the emphasis always being on the 3 founders and Brainy. Would love to see the focus be on Ayla instead of Garth for a change. I find her much more interesting. Would like more of Nura and less of Imra and Brainy too. And how about Pol or Lydda instead of Cos? Is Pol even alive currently? Is he in the academy? Has he gotten married? Etc.

I would have preferred that Brande speak oddly because of some trauma, either a stroke (probably unlikely in the 31st century) or an attack he suffered while gallivanting around the galaxy making pots of money.

That is pretty much how I feel about it, Nightcrawler. Changing the founding date of Starhaven, changing Brande's speech pattern, making Imra an orphan and pushing the date 6 minute War into the future add nothing to the Legion's story or any real character developement and add further contradictions to the already weakened continuity. I know it can not be the original because of all the changes to current day DCU titles, but DC went out of it's way to claim it would be as close as possible. Then Mr. Levitz majorly contradicts one of his own stories. I don't get it.

I think PL needs to refresh his memory and reread a lot of the Legion's canon leading up to and including his prior tenure on the title. He's missing some easy pitches across the board.

This is from another board but is how I feel about this issue. Very disappointed in almost every aspect of it (minus the back-up). Which considering how much I should love this is very very sad.
****

The art just doesn't cut it, I was disappointed to still see Sharpe's name listed on the solits with the Oct preview.

Storywise, it was a complete wreck. The retconned speech pattern is just BAD and about halfway through the issue I was hoping beyond hope that Brande would stay dead if it meant I never had to read his dialogue again.

The way of telling the origin was uninspiring as well, it I didn't already love the Legion (and thus forced myself to get through it) this issue probably would have put me to sleep. Is anything more annoying than reading a very long reminiscing by someone? That's why they invented flashbacks, so that a character isn't telling the reader stuff for prolonged periods of time. Did Paul not reread this script before he submitted it?

I was looking forward to this as I thought it would be cool to see more Adventure era Legion stories, however, with the pointless retcons I'm beginning to care less about yet another version of the Legion.

The Atom back-up was enjoyable. Not sure I'm digging all the moves the writer is doing (since I'm pretty sure a lot of them are recent additions to Ray to make him more 'modern' or something) but the story itself is pretty solid and well-paced. Much better than lreading RJ Brande drone on and on about himself and the Legion.

I'm still in for the long haul because it's legion, but I'm feeling less and less excited about all this.

What would I do if I wanted to read Paul's message on Facebook? (I have a Facebook account, but don't really know much about using it.)

Add Paul as a friend.

Or you might be able to just read it by searching for him, depending on his privacy settings. Adding him will allow you to receive regular updates from him, though.

Pretty certain this is just a slightly misplaced word balloon meant for Imra.


This kinda contradicts the later appearance of GL Vidar from LSH #295, or perhaps it represents the first appeance of his alternate identity of Argus Ornax III?

Quite possible, given the wonkiness quotient we've already seen, but it would be a really interesting bit of characterization if Brainy really did come to Earth to join the SPs, perhaps intending to challenge his intellect by pitting it against con-artists and the like.

On the other hand, the SPs don't just fight crime, they also suppress and control dangerous technologies. What better place for a Coluan who wants to play with *forbidden* toys to get his green mitts on them, but as a member of the elite force that controls and regulates restricted and 'black' technologies?

Putting Brainy in charge of these sorts of things would very much be the fox in charge of the henhouse, and, while a retcon, would at least be an interesting retcon.

I'm all for change, if it's cool change.

[And now I have a song stuck in my head. Shut up brain, or I'll stab you with a q-tip!]

Wouldn't the SP's know they were granting access to the wrong guy?
Querl had a reputation already, didn't he?

As to Durla, it was stated somewhere in the multiple issures lately, that many of the original Durlan tribes had left the planet before it came to Brainiac's notice and was destroyed.

Ciji might be from one of those and therefore different from Brande's people, who obviously were from New Durla since they were placed there by Cham.

We've also seen the Durlan who saved Vril Dox in a picture in dotREBELS #18.
He looks like the group we saw in the Reboot.
Here, it would mean that one or more of the Durlan tribes that Brainiac didn't capture is none humanoid and also a shapeshifter.

Brande may not have known of an earlier war, since he didn't have access to any information about the previous world.

His only source of historical information went back only 1000 years and to books somehow gotten by residents of that early seeding.

When the New Durla had it's war, the people there were altered physically along lines that other tribes had already realized, becoming shapeshifters themselves.

Their world is still suffering from the destruction, though, and we don't know how many of the wandering tribes exist in the future or if some of them came to New Durla before or after the war and mixed their genetics with the survivors.

That's my take on the Durla issue, anyway.

And yes, this IS the retroboot.
We just have to get with the flow, since this is the closest we're ever going to get to the original era.

So you are saying there were 2 completely different and unrelated "6 Minute War"s on 2 different planets inhabited by 2 different sets of people from a common ancestory that resulted in the same shape-shifting ability, but not the same base form? Sorry Candle, don't buy it. The change in date of the "6 Minute War" is just that... a change. And like the change of the founding date of Starhaven it serves no purpose other than the writer wanted to do something else that required the change, was too lazy to work around the history that already existed and had the authority to make changes at will. It adds nothing to the Legion except more confusion and it shouldn't have been done. Now that it is done it simply has to be lived with and delt with from there.... at least until a writer decides to make another needless change for the convinience of the story they wish to write.

Maybe the 6 minute war was *between* the two Durlas...

And, 10 years from now, we'll discover that Krypton blew up because of a shadow war with the Daxamites! Mon-El's amnesia prevented him from remembering that he was sent to Krypton to activate the trigger on the doomsday weapon they had planted in Krypton's crust!

Which still wouldn't explain them being thousands of years apart. Unless... are you suggesting a time-travelling faction of warmongering Durlans from one world or the other initiated the attack?

Time travelors, yes.
And the 6 minute part might just be part of a 'racial' memory thing.

New Durla had a war, the race there was almost destroyed with all history and they had an ancient memory that remained in their damaged minds and so the new war was named the same as the old war.

The Durlan's have always had shapeshifting in their genes and always have events that bring it out in one tribe or another.

Since Brande intimated that New Durla was still in a very backward state, even at the time of his death, the starship load of Durlans close to the exploded Titan might be from a totally different tribe/planet/time period.

If Paul went with recent story developments, perhaps we should trust that he'll work with the concept and make something interesting of it.

And I personally prefer the Bedard Starhaven idea.
Thousands of years to develop a culture with special powers just works better for me than 2 or 3 hundred years.

I think that if there are changes that I can't alter, it's better to come up with ways that they work for me, rather than to stew about them.
At least, where comics are concerned.

Maybe Brande was just drunk on Silverale.

The little alterations to the timeline don't bother me much, as many wroters have added things over the years.

I think Paul's view of writing about the past is actually solid. Why go back to tell the exact same story word for word...if you have to revisit something,might as well add something to it. f you're not, just point the readersto the original issue and leave it be.

Amen.

Except that it alters part of Dawnstar's character. Her arogance stems not from the fact that she is the product of alien interference, random mutation and thousands of years of lucky chance (as the new origin would be), but from the fact that she is the end product of intentional genetic manipulation and selective breeding over a few centuries caried out through the will of her own people(the original, and in my oppion much better, orign). It makes a huge difference to the character I remember from before. Without that driving force behind the reason for her arogance, she is just a snotty b*censored*h.

And I really like that idea, that she and her people have chosen to not wrap themselves in big metal coffins to traverse and survive space, but to have changed themselves to adapt to the universe, rather than be dependent on metal boxes to ferry them around.

It's a hugely drastic and brave thought process that would lead a species into reverse terraforming themselves to adapt to the universe, rather than bludgeon the universe into submitting to their physical requirements (or sealing themselves away from the dangers of the universe, placing walls and force fields between themselves and the rest of reality, like children hiding from the scary outside world).

*That* sort of thinking would make it natural for a Starhavenite to regard a person who needs a spacesuit or a spaceship to travel throughout the universe with a mixture of bewilderment, pity and contempt, seeing a starfarer in a spaceship being called an 'explorer' as absurd as a goldfish in a bowl being called an astronaut.

just set it down. I'm enjoying it just fine but I don't see this bringing in scads of NEW fans.