Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes The Complete Continuity Match-Up Checklist: from Baxter to Levitz Relaunch (revised)

Huh? The story contradicted itself (assuming you take the second part to mean that they forgot the whole adventure--and you've already said that). Johns and current continuity have nothing to do with it except that Johns and current continuity have to pick one side of the contradiction.

No, reading the story in the context it was published means you have a story with a mistake in it. Mistakes happen. They don't make the story out of continuity.

You wanted to know where Paul says Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count. I told you.

Now where's the reference to the pocket universe in Action 864? (And specifically a reference to the pocket universe being part of the Legion's current timeline--not just something the Trapper knows from another timeline).

Huh? Indeed. You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion. Given your cherry picking efforts in posting it isn't surprising you read in the same manner.
So clearly it is your belief that specifically, based solely on those three panels, JLofA 147 & 148 when published, Batman and the rest were aware of their adventure with the Legion in JLoA 149.
Yet you need an asterisk attached to the words "pocket universe" in bold refering to a large orange box containing a play by play dissertation as to what that could mean, can mean, will mean , has meant and no longer means in terms to how you obviously understand a story.

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Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.

No, reading the story in the context it was published means you have a story with a mistake in it. Mistakes happen. They don't make the story out of continuity[/b]

What makes it out of continuity is that Batman can't recall what he and the JLA and the JSA don't know occured. There is no mistake.

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Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".

You wanted to know where Paul says Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count. I told you.

Now where's the reference to the pocket universe in Action 864? (And specifically a reference to the pocket universe being part of the Legion's current timeline--not just something the Trapper knows from another timeline). [/b]

It obvious you havnt read Action Comics 864 nor do you want to. You ignore that entire book along with one panel posted here. However using Levitz's own quote and the content within Action 864 it seems the the Pocket Universe is referenced in modern continuity or as you put it "the Legion's current timeline".

Which doesn't mean we ever "need" to ever visit it or specifics from the PRE 5 Year Gap Legion. The time from then until now is purposely left unknown or surrounded in Mystery. But until otherwise published there is no reason to simply assume it never happened just because a reader doesn't "like" it and take that dislike and report on it as if it is fact. When in fact if the Pocket Universe and Conpiracy truly never happened something published should clearly, with out a doubt express this. What if anything published does?
Certainly not a book that references it in current continuity.

There is not three panels saying they forgot their adventure. There's one phrase. The rest of the three panels imply they forgot specific things (for instance not knowing what happened to the satellite), not the whole adventure (for instance, they still knew they had been in the 30th Century).

The idea that they don't know anything occurred is based on your belief that the original story had them forget. The original story contradicted itself about whether they forgot.

The panel posted here showed that the Trapper remembered the pocket universe, not that the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity. Being the Trapper, he can remember things that are out of continuity.

If you can show me a panel where the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity--not just something that the Trapper remembers--I will put it in the list as part of continuity. If you don't, I won't.

While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?

According to a short According to a short story in Action Comics #900 by Geoff Johns, the ring was given to her by Saturn Girl in case of emergencies

Did they say when she got one? In Lightning Saga when they were looking for Legionnaires by tracing the flight ring, they mentioned all the extras. Lois didn't have one.

I'd also imagine that Lois having a flight ring is very inconvenient for Superman plots, since now every time she's falling to her death (or just needs to jump out of a window) she's got a flight ring.

in Action 900 it soesn't say when Lois got it but presumably after she married - which means after the Lightning Saga as there had been no contact before that since before Clark got married.

Lois keeps the ring 'hidden' under her desk and she did say in Action 900 that she won't use it to fly because she preferes flying with Superman.

Sheesh, that's ridiculous. I can understand wanting to fly with Superman to have fun, but that's not going to save her the next time she's thrown out of a helicopter and Superman happens to be off in China at the moment.

Yes there are.

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rest of the three panels imply they forgot specific things (for instance not knowing what happened to the satellite), not the whole adventure (for instance, they still knew they had been in the 30th Century).

Please quote how they forgot specific things but still knew they had been to the 30th century.

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There is no mistake.The idea that they don't know anything occurred is based on your belief that the original story had them forget. The original story contradicted itself about whether they forgot.

Again that is your opinion it isn't fact and it is based it would seem on your intent on making Johns continuity faux paux canon. However u did choose not to answer the question on whether or not you believed Batman and the rest to have had said adventure in the following issue of JLA 149, not to mention that it hasn't been referenced in 34 years as in continuity, because it never was. Now maybe I could understand if it was in fact referenced atleast 3 times in the current continuity if not textually then maybe visually.

Like the Pocket Universe and Conspiracy

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If you can show me a panel where the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity--not just something that the Trapper remembers--I will put it in the list as part of continuity. If you don't, I won't.

Already done based on your stipulation of non printed in the comics Levitz quote. Utilizing the general reading abilities learned from grade school and beyond not to mention cut n paste; Action Comics 864 and Legion of 3Worlds.

But you choose to interpet the Time Trapper as existing in his own continuity and pick and choose in your own mind what he talks about and refers to and how that manages to exist in general continuity. With out again, no reference to what u feel is or isn't valid beyond your own opinion.
Considering you place spelling errors as "continuity errors" it doesn't bother me what u place on the "list". It is full ofcreator intent "errors" itself.
I just hope new readers to Legion have the capacity, if they should stumble on to this site, not to fall under the notion the list is in any way accurate or unbiased on it's info.

As proven in your continuity error reasoning machine.

Don't we have to wait and see if Paul Levitz says Action Comics 900 is in continuity before we can establish any facts?

Sorry, I asked you for a panel. Issue numbers aren't panels. (And Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count anyway unless Paul used it somewhere else.)

No, because Paul didn't make a statement about Action #900 similar to the one he made about Legion of Three Worlds.

hey hey hey hey



it's gettin a lil crazy in here.

Absolutely trying.

I've posted actual modern comics referencing the pocket universe in current continuity , and for sort followed the movable scale that is Levitz' approval and now it seems continuity is based on what the characters, on this case the Time Trapper himself is really thinking beyond what he referencing during the context of his own conversations.

So if there is a loop hole not in print causing the PU to"not" be in current continuity then we can use behind the scenes Facebook non Legion Proper theories to prove it isn't including but limited to anything not though of or printed yet....so it seems.


Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.

But in Action 864 the Trapper says "I've attacked head on, confused them with pocket dimensions and alternate history". Nowhere is the term Pocket Universe used. It is 'pocket dimensions' (plural) linked to alternate history. It's only my opinion but I do not see this as saying the pocket universe exists in this reality. My interpretation of this statement was that Geoff Johns was acknowledging the Post Crisis (Pocket Universe), Mordru-verse and Glorith-verse realities as being known to the Trapper. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that attacking with alternate history has happened in this continuity - it happened in an alternate continuity otherwise it wouldn't be alternate - so why would the pocket dimensions be any different.

That's my opinion. I guess the statement in Action 864 is more ambiguous than I read it so until a detailed history of this Legion comes out it will remain a question mark to some.

Personally, I cannot see a storyline where the Legion has had a Clark-Superboy-who-will-grow-up-to-be-Superman since the early days (and a Mon-El) and then another Superboy (with another Mon-El possibly) pops out of the ether and produces anything like the PU story arc as told. There is no never-was-a-Superboy Superman for the PU Superboy to meet or replace in Legion history and so there was no reason for the Trapper to create the Pocket Universe.

Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.

The PU was a good story with powerful moments but it was there to fill gaps in the Superman/boy relationship with the Legion that have now been filled by the real Superboy again. It served a purpose in it's own continuity but not in this one so why would DC want the PU in this reality?

Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.

Absolutely! And for me the questions gear more towards "how it didn't happen?" over a simple "let's assume it didn't happen, shall we?".

Except the Time Trapper stated he tried to eliminate Superboy from reality and in doing so created the Pocket Universe (Dimension).
Making absolute no reference to a story would be easier to say it never happened than by referencing it both visually and textually. By doing that you ,as a writer are stating it happened ( some way or another) and as a reader you are left with wondering HOW, but either way wether explained or not...it seems to have happened.

Theoretically, it could have been a long adventure after Crisis when time was all messed up just as we seen it, but in reverse. Meaning the Legion was fooled from Cosmic Boy's mini up till Conspiracy. Who knows.

At the same time remember, Levitz wanted Supergirl ( the original who died in Crisis) to be Sensor Girl and wrote that character that way until that changed... But this might give some insight to a possible perspective on how the Legion works in DC Continuity if you look at it from the future (1000 years) back towards the past. Knowing there is a huge gap to fill and it isn't necessarily cohesive and not intended to be. Hence Levitz stating "chroniclers error" upon his return.

From Brainy's perspective , I imagine he might say something like " oh look it's Superboy, are you here for good or are you going to disappear again" sarcastically. And big dumb Clark might just laugh as he runs off to chat with Kara, whom he hasn't met yet in his own time...


I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.


It was a great story and a classic use of retconning we no longer see in comics, it gave life to a character and successfully saved the Legions roots and past published adventures. It makes sense it was a labor of love from Paul Levitz and I agree it may not be needed today...but then there shouldn't be references made to it next thing ya might see Anti-Lad showing up confusing things even more.

I think why you seem to be at odds with most people on this thread is that it is generally agreed that this is a NEW reality coming out of the multiverse created in Infinite Crisis. To date there have been several realities:

the Earth-1 universe of the original multiverse (up to Crisis on Infinite Earths). In parallel to this was the various other universes like the 'Adult' Legion universe.

After Crisis came the single universe where Superman never was Superboy and the Time Trapper created the pocket universe. this Post Crisis universe was reset out of existance when Mon-El destroyed the Time Trapper of that universe.

When time was reset the Mordru-verse came into existance until Glorith seized power when the Glorithverse was born.

After the events of Zero Hour, time was reset again and the reboot Legion was then the Legion of that universe.

Infinite Crisis recreated a new multiverse and in that multiverse at least four Legions exist together with the remnants of Legion-247 who now call themselves the New Wanderers.

It is important to be clear that none of these happened before or after the others but are resets of time that meant they replaced the others.

The current reality isn't pre 5 year gap but has replaced the 5 year gap universe (and by implication all the universes that existed before the 5 year gap universe).

It has been established that much of pre-Crisis did occur on the current Earth 0 (so the JLA/JSA/Legion crossover did happen on this current Earth) and indeed Legacies showed that there was a Crisis of sorts even in this new continuity, just one where the JLA and JSA were from a single world and the Earths never merged.


Geoff Johns wanted to pick the Legion up by writing off all of the post-Crisis events. Paul Levitz doesn't see things the same (which in my opinion is a pity because it would have been much neater).

So when we look at the history of the current Legion of Earth 0, we have to recognise that what went before the Lightning Saga, remains largely un-documented. (which is why this thread exists!)

Earth 0 history obviously follows similarities to the pre- and post-Crisis universes but could not possibly be the same as either. Jimmy Olsen, Lana Lang, Pete Ross and Supergirl are very different characters to previous universes, while even Superboy's backstory and abilities are different to either the pre-Crisis or Pocket Universe Boys of Steel. Add the fact that other things could not have happened as they did - the Universo/Green Lantern issue springs to mind - and this is very definitely a different universe with a different back story, albeit with many similarities to now non-existant universes.


Matrix wasn't in Reign of Hell, the Linda Danvers Supergirl was, without any reference to Matrix which had already been separated from Supergirl anyway. Whatever you think of the citizenship issue, I read - but I can't find again, sorry - that the current Superman editorial team are totally against the 'Superman executioner' storyline still being in continuity. And this fits with the dialogue in Lo3W about whether Superboy Prime should be killed or not and with other flashback stories like Legaies, Secret Origin etc that totally omitted any reference. The Earth 0 Superman did not execute the phantom zone prisoners (presumably because he never encountered them), while the post Crisis Superman did.

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Whoah whoa wha?? When was this revealed??

All we know is "some" time passed from Magic Wars till "now". It would seem anyone assuming 5 years has gone by is somehow simply trying make SOME desperate connection to the real 5YG.

I think the reason I'm "at odds" here ( really?) is that I'm actually reading the books published as if Magic Wars ended and then boom! The Legion appears next on JLA/JSA .

There isn't any reason to assume that ANYTHING 5YG has/is or will happen.


Again all I ask is for some published reference , because it all sounds like speculation to me and speculation used to fit the design of " I don't like that so it never happened" yet that being the case logic can certainly work both ways as easily.

While Infinite Crisis did create a new Multiverse Nothing in print has disclaimed the existence of Matrix, Phantom Zone criminals of the pocket Universes execution or the pocket universe itself.

By utilizing those elements with in the reference of a story you are by doing so perpetuating it's existence especially if yourfurthering it's effects on characters in an effort to move the story along.

Let me just reiterate so's not to infer I ignored all your valid points

I understand that it could make sense to some to want ot fill a void that was removed by eliminating the 5YG continuity and by doing so assume after End of an Era the Archie Legion filled it and now the current Legion serves to fill that void also.

All I'm saying is that "void" doesn't exist.
By simply continuing after Magic Wars there is no other continuity to fill. We have no sense of how much real time has passed for the Legion and nothing except those final pages and what is currently published can or should WANT to fill that void.

Therefore, there was no Glorithverse, Garth is no longer Proty, Mon-El is no longer ( as far as we know) carrying the Time Trapper within him nor were we ever shown his fate after the heart monitors shorted out. It seems simple to just erase anything after the "Gap" to me, I never once thought to give it such validity that it would be necessary to compare it with current continuity in a way as to think things could contradict it. Contradict something that never took place?

Modified: "Probably removed from continuity" is mostly moved into "other DCU", and I created separate sections for new and old DCU.

It's just a theory at this stage but I'm seeing LSH v6 (the current run) as post Flashpoint - well at least until v7 comes out and somethings different.

My logic in saying V6 is post Flashpoint is that Flashpoint is referenced by Harmonia Li as a known event in history. But on top of this there are so many anomalies between the Johns run and the Levitz run that the two being from different timelines makes emminant sense. Consider:

The Emerald Empress being alive (Johns) and long dead (Levitz)
Tyroc being MIA (Johns) and back with the Legion (Levitz)
Night Girl and XS as team-mates (Johns) and XS not knowing Lydda (Levitz)
Starboy seemingly coming back with Cham, Tenz etc (Johns/Gates) but only later showing up (Levitz)
Lu called Duplicate Damsel (Johns) and Duplicate Dirl (Levitz)

These are only some of the examples I have found. As I said at the start, just a theory at this stage.

I don't consider mistakes to be signs of the story taking place in a new continuity. "V6 takes place in a new continuity where Gates' homeworld is named Vyraga, and Marzal is a 'homeworld'..."

Also, Paul's already on record as saying not all of Legion of Three Worlds is continuity, which covers the Empress.

That's exactly my point Lo3W was in continuity when Johns wrote it so what has taken it out? Flashpoint!

*delete*

I hope DC and Paul Levitz do make it official that this current incarnation was the "post-Flashpoint" incarnation right from its start.

I'm sure someone will ask him eventually.

The Legion has had several crossovers which clearly did not take place after Flashpoint, including the last New Krypton story and the crossover in Supergirl annual 2.

And while the new series did have an early reference to Flashpoint, remember that the whole reboot idea is a last minute demand from DC management. A reference to Flashpoint would simply be a reference to a crossover as a crossover, it would not establish that those stories are post-reboot.

As for known changes such as the Emerald Empress, when a writer ignores a story, that doesn't put the story in a "different continuity", it means the story is ignored. There isn't a separate continuity where Cosmic Boy has magnetic eyes or where the Legionnaires call themselves "lad" and "lass" because they invented a way to prevent aging. No in-story history rewrite wiped those plot elements out of continuity; taking them away is purely an out-of-story thing with no explanation in-story at all.