Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes The Complete Continuity Match-Up Checklist: from Baxter to Levitz Relaunch (revised)

Yeah, there could have been two Superboys. But it raises the question of how far you should go just to say that something is still in continuity. After all, you can explain away almost anything if you try enough; it's just a question of how much you want to make up.

Except for Paul's remark on Facebook about the marriage, all signs are that Superboy's death and Conspiracy have been retconned away and are out of continuity. Yes, you can interpret it otherwise, but you end up making straightforward stories into ones that are not, you end up assuming that important information has been withheld from the reader or is behind the scenes, and you have to assume that characters who might occasionally speak of it somehow never do.

We all know that retconning is bad for the long run. But refusing to admit that retconning happened can be too. The convoluted reasoning you need to do to say that this was not retconned makes Legion history make less sense, in the same way that retcons themselves make history make less sense.

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It "may" have happened, but everything we've seen so far (except for Paul's comment about the divorce) points to it not having happened. What we've seen requires *far* less twisting and reinterpretation to fit with "it didn't happen" than to fit with "it happened". They're not equal possibilities.

What we've seen being actual flashbacks to those members involved floating on rocks during their fight with the Time Trapper along him stating such during Action Comics.

Published work being canon cherry picking or not.
Sometimes you have to wonder how far some will go to twist what "didn't" happen.
I'll take actual printed work over theories any day .

I'm not sure which Action Comics issues you're referring to (I really would appreciate issue numbers, since they should go in the list), but if these were Johns-era comics (which I assume they are), Johns' idea of continuity was different from Paul's and he included several things that Paul has ignored as continuity.

During a universal power failure Mon-El's life support shutdown causing the heart monitor to flatline. 2 issues passed and that version of the Legion title ended with no continuation of that plotline.
Ignoring 5 year Gap, we have the current continuity as the continuation of that cliffhanger.
Those are all the facts present.
Did he die? We don't know.
Meanwhile ... Luornu and Val's off panel "comebacks" are just as easily accepted based on less.

Just observating emotion and bias over printed facts.

Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then.
However, like Time Trappers reference to the Pocket Universe the essential point is made with in the context of it's utilization.
There so many times as a reader that you just wince at how simple it would be to just "get it right" and half those issues wouldn't be.
Although, since creative intent is considered canon then it's safe to assume the same can be said for those " mistakes" . I doubt it is intentional on the part of the creators to not read the books they oh so bad want to reference, it seems they like us recall the "good stuff" the highlights. But forget the stories that lead up to those highlights.

Yes, but we have a different creator now.

If Johns became writer again and started writing stories which implied a pocket universe I'd certainly say it's part of continuity again.

So to you the entire continuity of a series is based on who is writing the book?

I take it Action 900 must not be in continuity then...is this more of what one brings to the table to prove something "didn't" happen?

Not to mention that Levitz wrote the Pocket Universe and it was his baby...based on "his" continuity you still have nothing published to deny or prove it never happened. Just another writer using the idea and moving it forward in present time.

Hmmm

I looked these up. Action 864 has a page of the Time Trapper with some floating rocks, but it's not a flashback and there are no Legionnaires on them. The upper left does have some unidentified people in it, but it's not part of the main scene with the floating rocks. And even if that's somehow a flashback, it doesn't imply that the story is part of current continuity except in the sense that it's erased from history but the Trapper still knows about it.

For JLA #148, the story says that GL wipes out memories of things related to everyone's personal futures, which means they won't know that the satellite blew up. Batman wouldn't forget meeting the Legion.

Just because having a different writer makes it more likely the story is out of continuity doesn't mean that everything with the same writer is in continuity.

You're also being unreasonable by asking for "proof". Changes to continuity are rarely given as proof, since you can always interpret things any way you want; all that changes is whether the interpretation is simple or complicated. And the interpretation you need to do to assume that Conspiracy happened is very complicated to the point of being worse than much retconning (especially retconning of the "we never said that..." variety)

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Action Comics 864 is practically narrated by the Time Trapper. The scene I think you are talking about comes from Legion of 3 Worlds which when the founding members are transported to the "End of Time" floating on rocks, the Time Trapper explains his attempt to "Remove any true memories of Superboy from the Legion" and behind the Legion members is the vision of the conspirators fighting the Time Trapper .

Point being, we have no idea if it was erased from history as you said. But you do agree that the Time Trapper knows about it therefor it happened. which is all I am stating. It hasnt been ignored it hasnt been retconned and it has been referenced atleast 3 times in modern "continuity".

The scene I meant is the one from Action 864; I had the comic in front of me. It's the last page of the first story.

I think it's possible that the Trapper knows about it, but what he says is vague enough that we can't say he definitely does know it. At any rate, this has no bearing on whether the Legion knows it, to which the answer seems to be "no, unless you really want to twist things".

It's simple. He wanted "proof" that Conspiracy never happened in current Legion continuity. To which my reply is considering how fans can reinterpret things, there is no such thing as proof, only "this takes an awful lot of reinterpretation".

Considering you disregard actual printed words and "twist" them to mean "its possible that the Time Trapper knows" when he states clearly he does in 2 separate books I am at a loss at where you are coming from.

Proof isn't subjective, the reality is there is more printed textual and visual proof that these things happened then their isn't. If a reader comes to conclusion based on what they read that conclusion comes from something tangible, all that is being asked is what frame of reference you have to support the views you come to.
If you read the books mentally checking what works and what doesn't that's fine. But where is your frame of reference.

If he says so in two separate books, you can give me the reference. I asked for the reference. You said Action 864. I checked it and it says exactly what I pointed out.

As I wrote, Action Comics 864 is practically narrated by the Time Trapper in addition to the Conspiracy scene being shown in Legion of 3 Worlds.
Both textually reference the Pocket Universe.
Instead of repeating ourselves let us imagine we have the ability to scroll up and read the context of the conversation.
Is there a frame reference that you are gauging current continuity against?

Considering the name of this thread and all.

You forgot the part where Green Lantern states that he is glad he will *forget* this whole experience.
Again that statement along with how so many other of the crossovers ended with the equivalent of a mindwipe to the characters seems to prove otherwise.

Yes, the panel contradicts itself.

It seems to me that the comment about forgetting the experience has to be the mistake. It is less plausible that the other comment is the mistake, because a lot more words would need to be changed.

At any rate, this means that when Geoff Johns said Batman remembered, he was just deciding which comment was the mistake, not making a change.

As for Legion of Three Worlds, Paul has said that he's not taking everything in Legion of Three Worlds as continuity. Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is. There have already been things from Legion of Three Worlds that he's contradicted, most notably the appearances of the original Emerald Empress and Validus.

Pretty bold to assume the writer of the story is making a mistake within his own created context.

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It is less plausible that the other comment is the mistake, because a lot more words would need to be changed.

. Need to be changed here means changed to make your intrerpitation more valid?

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At any rate, this means that when Geoff Johns said Batman remembered, he was just deciding which comment was the mistake, not making a change.

But that is pure conjecture on your part and certainly "stuff" brought to the table that isn't needed to read the book even moreso in "re" interpeting one published so long ago to fit into "current" continuity. ( But this is accepted emotionally and ok)

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As for Legion of Three Worlds, Paul has said that he's not taking everything in Legion of Three Worlds as continuity.

Yay. Paul!! We won't know what is what until "published" otherwise.

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Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is.

Wold love to read the "rules of reading Legion" which you base this on, while I can't condem you for thinking the way you do nor am I judging, I just do not understand where you are coming from. There are many contradictions in your logic that do not apply across the board...makes me think that can be very confusing.

But going with your above logic and me being bored and having fun with cut n paste.
Action864



Legion of Three Worlds


Modern references to the Pocket Universe and Conspiracy. Which is all I have ever stated, published work over conjecture.
The "proof" on your end being suggested would be something tangible to help me understand where you might be coming from.

Not really. I didn't say it's a mistake because I don't like it, I said it's a mistake because the two sentences right next to each other contradict themselves.

No, needs to be changed in order to fix the contradiction. I'm not doing this to make an interpretation valid--I'm doing it because there's a contradiction, and if there's a contradiction you have to call one of the statements a mistake. The statement I called a mistake is the one which requires fewer words.


It's not conjecture, it's about fixing contradictions. Geoff Johns ignored one of the statements in JLA #148--but since JLA #148 contains a contradiction, he had no choice but to ignore one of the statements.

Paul's statement is from the August 2010 Comics Buyers Guide.

What specifically is being contradicted?

Understanding what you interpret as a contradiction helps to understand why you believe a change needs to be made


The conjecture is believing you know where Geoff Johns is coming from and specifically thinking these panels inspired him somehow , unless of course you are utilizing your conjecture to validate his incorrect use of JLA 148 as an in continuity story.

So you were quoting Paul Levitz when you said,"Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is"?

Then based on the above panels from both Lo3W and Action 864 we can safely say that Conspiracy and the Pocket Universe are in "modern continuity"

It says that the post-hypnotic suggestion is "causing us to forget our knowledge of all aspects of this time that relate to our own personal futures", implying that those are being contrasted with other aspects that are not forgotten. It also says GL doesn't think he'll mind forgetting about "this experience", which can be interpreted to mean that the entire adventure is forgotten. This is a contradiction.

I would suggest that the contradiction be resolved by ignoring the latter, as it is shorter and less specific and therefore is far more likely to be sloppy wording.

He didn't use those exact words, but basically, yes.
We already had a thread on it: http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000726

That's still your interpitation and considering you are reinterpitating it with current "continuity" in mind it would read as a contradiction considering Johns mistake. Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.


He didn't use those exact words, but basically, yes.
We already had a thread on it: http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000726 [/QB][/QUOTE]


I' ll take Paul's suggestion from old Legion Outposts ( letters pages) and agree with the sentiment on how he doesn't count things that don't appear in the Legion series proper.

Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".