Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Lets retcon the Legion

And yet, we see most of the villains presented return time and again, just as villainous as ever, and even those who *are* rehabilitated (such as Mekt or Mordru or Validus) are automagically set back to villain like nothing happened the second a new writer comes along and wants to use them as villains. Why isn't Mekt a farmer with his 'brother' Holt? Why doesn't Mordru have the innocence of a child, his darkness purged by the others? Why isn't Garridan Ranzz a toddler? Johns has taken away all of this character growth, because he wanted to use every Legion villain ever in his new Super-Prime and the LSV rock-show. It's galling enough the changes to the Legion, with the Wildfire / Red Tornado nonsense, but he's turned the 31st century dark indeed with the simple decision that all of the Legion adversaries who have ever grown up and gotten better and been 'saved,' are now beyond salvation, back to evil and villainy, and the Legion's task has now become thankless and grim and futile, as they can no longer point at Mekt or Mordru or Garridan and say 'We *CAN* make a difference. Look at these people we saved from the mistakes of their past! Look at those former menaces that are now just people, living their lives!'

I really don't want to see a book called Imra Ardeen, Parole Officer / Counselor. But a line tossed out even a single time that she was talking to one of the villains seen only once before and he's doing well in his new life, would help to provide a basis for the assumption that you mention above. Instead the villains get beat up, go to jail, and come back, time and again. Sure, we want some irredeemable folk, but it gets kinda bleak when *everyone* is irredeemable and condemned to always be exactly the same person, making the exact same choices, for good or evil.

Okay, okay. I give. Cramer and Set, you're hired. But you have to use v v as your artist. This is not negotiable.

I think you have to realize that Titan is a whole planet of telepaths. It doesn't qualify as a superpower there. What that means is, telepaths are all kinds of people. Some are calming mediators; Johns seems to have tried to turn Saturn Girl into this. But none of the three Imras was like that before.

I like to think of Saturn Girl as having three layers. At first, she seems cold and standoffish. Once you get to know her, she's more of a team player, and you start to like her. When she's pushed, though, she'll cross the line and do something really scary. And then, as Matthew E has pointed out, she'll step back.

I've noticed that when Imra does 'step back,' it's almost never 'oh, I did a bad thing' but more of a 'oh, I scared them and they weren't ready to see that yet...'

It must be very strange being a telepath who hangs around with non-telepaths. Everyone is used to thinking on thing and saying another. To a telepath, who even if she isn't trying, is going to be aware of these different layers, listening to people *lie to her face* with every word out of their mouth must be tiresome. How exhausting must it be hanging around with people every day knowing all of the things that they aren't saying to each other, living this surreal little meaningless pageant of polite lies and half-truths? Trying to remember not to say anything that you haven't heard in words, so as not to embarass someone who is too insecure to say what they've been thinking about how much they like someone else's butt.

"Oh, my bad Invisible Kid, I forgot that you never got around to telling Supergirl that you fantasize about her endlessly. Silly me."

"Oh, that story about the dirty peasants is so interesting Princess. And did you know that everyone not named Brin thinks that the only thing 'royal' about you is that you are a royal pain in the butt, but Rokk asked them to pander to you so that we can use you for your money? Oops. Silly me. I spoke the truth again."

Really, the bulk of human social interaction must look like a complicated game of make-believe to telepaths...

Hmm... Interesting points, Set. Personally I tend to believe that a telepath amongst we "differently abled" thinkers would become adept very quickly at walling off a huge portion of the thoughts around her. For both moral and practical reasons. It would just be a more elaborate form of the socialization that enables the average person IRL to tune out multiple voices in a busy office or on a crowded bus so s/he can concentrate on filing, reading a book, etc.

The reverse might also be true. If you were a non-telepath studying on Titan, you might cultivate a form of concentration/use a device/take a medication that kept your own "white noise" from disturbing those around you;From violating one another's "mental space" without meaning to.

On a vaguely-related subject, I liked some of the Threeboot, but I wasn't all that into the idea that telepaths would evolve away from being able to speak at all. It didn't make much sense, in the context of being a society that interacted with other societies. To me, it was like assuming that by that time, most humans would lose legs and feet because walking wasn't really necessary anymore.

That's an interesting point. I guess it might depend on how the Titans evolved. If, for instance, there were generations that evolved cut off from contact with anyone off-planet, it could be a logical mutation. They may still have vocal cords, but they serve no function (ala the appendix). However, for that to make any sense, the period of evolution would have to be very significant, and certainly more than 1,000 years (which would likely be only about 30-40 generations), so the idea of Titans being descendants of colonists from Earth seems illogical. If, however, the original Titans have been on the planet for tens of thousands of years, such a mutation might make sense. I would actually think the mutation would be likely for beings who live in an environment where sound waves do not carry. There is no benefit to speaking in such an environment, so beings who can communicate via telepathy would have a significant genetic advantage.

An environment with no sound waves - that's really interesting. I wonder what the physics would be for that.

I was thinking that if Titanians don't speak, perhaps they have no music either, or it has atrophied along with their vocal chords - and what does that do to a society? But they hear, in the 3boot.

The Mekt Ranzz equivalent on a speechless Titan would be a kid who was born speaking, and either with limited or no telepathic ability. People could understand what he was saying/thinking, but not the reverse.

And there's another retcon: have somebody else's brother be the alienated bad guy.

The point about music is a good one. Can one sing telepathically? Does it sound the same to the listener? Can telepathic music be recorded and replayed?

If the answer to any of those is "no", then I can't see telepathy replacing speech entirely.

An airless world.

Speaking of telepathy, I read something a while ago about a science fiction story that had a very interesting presentation of it.

Humans aren't born knowing spoken language. We have to learn it, and we don't all learn the same one.

SF often shows telepathy as a universal language, requiring no translation. What if every species had its own mental language? No... even that much commonality would only be true for telepathic species, where children could learn mental communication from people around them. For a non-telepathic species, every individual develops their own mental language. Thus, a telepath would have to undergo training with a non-telepath to communicate, and couldn't use that knowledge on anyone else. Individual bonds could be created, but general telepathic broadcasting, or communication with someone you'd never met, would be impossible.

Having read this, I can't really believe it would work any other way.

This could be applied to any SF/fantasy setting with telepathy to restrict it. Most such settings allow unlimited telepathy, often rendering it a story-breaking power.

Oh, definitely, and a telepath probably wouldn't even be allowed off of Titan (or even to visit the parts of Titan where tourists from other worlds pass by regularly) because of how awkward their lack of control would be, both for themselves, and for those whose minds they are involuntarily reading. But even the best trained telepath, with shields of solid iron, is still going to *know* that the people who are talking to her and just lying through their flapping lips with much of what they say, and it's going to make them even crankier, and perhaps even a bit paranoid, since now they won't even know what a non-telepath really meant, just hearing what they said, which they know from experience has a 50/50 chance of being useful information or empty pleasantries.

Yup, presumably an child would have less control than an adult, adn Titanian children might be kept away from off-worlders, for that reason.

Since I'm working under the crazy assumption that Titanians could not have possibly evolved on Titan (which was a ball of methane ice in the 21st century DCU, and not conducive to humanoid life in any way!), Titanians seem most likely to be of human type descent, and, if they came from Earth, they can't have had more than 1000 years of 'evolution' since leaving Earth.

My 'fanon' explanation for this is that Titanians haven't 'gone mute,' but that the average Titanian has rarely, if *ever*, spoken aloud in her life. Her vocal chords are atrophied, not gone. She can make a croaking noise, perhaps, and over months of training and throat-strengthening exercises, could perhaps whisper credibly well...

I toy with that notion in my Emerald Legion fanfic, having Imra startle and disrupt the concentration of another Titanian by shouting in her face. The other Titanian was so unprepared for being screamed at by Imra that it blew her concentration and she ended up at a disadvantage in their psychic struggle.

Titan is supposed to be a chunk of frozen methane. If the original colonists had to wear pressure suits 24/7, they would have had no ability to communicate vocally with each other, save by electronic communications gear. And if some sort of electromagnetic interference prevented that form of communication from being an option either, then they would be forced to rely on their telepathy (or sign language, or whatever), at least until they had constructed some sort of permanant pressurized habitation for themselves where they could safely go around suitless. (And, if the region was prone to geological instability, suit-wearing might still be considered vital, as breaches could happen at any time!)

The only way, barring communications technology, that two environment-suited individuals could vocally communicate would be touching their helmets together, so that the vibrations would transmit through their faceplates (and even that would be dubious, as it's a common trope in sci-fi books, but I have no idea if it would work in the real world).

I enjoy this Saturn Girl discussion.

I guess I'm firmly in the 'iron butt' camp, if there is one. In fact, I'd just like to see some more of the independent character that plotted to draw down the lightning and sacrifice herself for Garth. Or faced down Darkseid. Or wore a bink bikini to land her husband and then went back to her comfortable, sensible uniform not long after.

I wanna see more of *her*. Not so much the wife or mother.

I hadn't thought Titan telepaths as being quite so permanently 'open'. My impression's been that their power was more one that they could 'use' or 'not use'. I remember stories that implied that Imra often kept a telepathic 'ear' out for criminal thoughts, but I don't really remember that sort of oppressive openness to others' thoughts that are often found in fiction speculating about telepathy.

Maybe that's just my personal preference for her? I know she maintains a certain level of discipline because of her power, but I took that as more of an ethical bent, rather than one of mental survival.

I *do* like the suggestion of follow-through with villains/criminals after their arrests. That needn't be 'touchy-feely', it could be considered responsible. Besides, Imra already *is* a quite compassionate character, I thought. Just not that particularly displays that compassion externally. Conspicuously.

We never really saw all that much of Titan until the reboot, did we? I quite liked DNA/Batista's take on the moon, for all that it was likely scientifically inaccurate.

I hope whatever LSH stories eventually see print after LOTW spend lots of time on planets/moons like Titan, Imsk, Zoon, Starhaven as well as the more familiar Winath, Naltor and Talok VII. And lots of new settings, as well.

It could be that it's not too hard for her to block out the thoughts around her - just like being in a room full of people having assorted conversations, you hear lots of talking but have to focus to actually listen to the words.

The DNA/Batista Titan was wonderful, different from other worlds - unlike the earlier reboot scenes on Titan when Imra went home to visit her family (with little sister Jancel), which looked just like any other place in the future. The Batista-style Titan was briefly revisited in the Action Legion story, in one panel where we see Braal, Winath and Titan prepare to attack Earth. So maybe it stuck, and we'll see more of this Titan in the future.

One of Saturn Girl's Silver Age abilities which fell by the wayside was her power to command animals, assorted beasts and wild things. I don't believe she actually carried on conversations with them (except for the Superpets). Too unlikely to survive our more critical current day - but I wonder if she could realistically have such a power if she understood how different creatures' brains worked, what to trigger to get a Tulvanian Witch Wolf to just go to sleep.

And that, to me, would be a signature of a telepath, is the same sort of impatience with people that speedsters might exhibit. The speedster (or brainiac-level genius, or precognitive) might feel like they are waiting for *centuries* for another person to finish getting their sentence out, while the telepath would instead feel like the entire conversation is a waste of time, since people aren't always saying what they *mean.*

I could see a telepath occasionally losing her patience and just making decisions, based on what she already knows that the group is going to decide to do, once they are all done with the pointless bickering and establishing their various stances on what should be done or why they are for or opposed to the idea.

It seems, in Marvel, DC and other telepath depictions (Babylon 5, Star Trek, etc) that telepaths make big, big noise about never, ever, nuh-uh, not snooping around in other people's brains, but every single one of them turns around at some point and says, 'I couldn't help but notice,' 'you're broadcasting all over the place, I didn't mean to pry,' etc. It's a fairly common writing convention to take the easy out and have the telepath be the one who notices that someone is being furtive or hiding some pain or something, and it creates the impression that telepathy is a lot like hearing. You may not have your ear pressed to the door of Gim and Yera's quarters, but you might still overhear a loud disagreement in passing, without being all snoopy about it.

Same with any other sense, you can 'tune out' all you want, but if someone is walking around nekkid, you might catch a peek of something without even trying...

Agreed. One of the best parts of the beginning of Shooter/Manapul was the methane-glacier-ski-resort on Triton. Nice exotic imagery, the sort which I think could have benefitted the Waid/Kitson years, which, IMO, spent a little too much time in the Legion HQ near the end (after a good beginning with glimpses of Naltor, Cargg and Colu).

The LSV attack on Orando storyline also benefitted, I think, from not being yet another 'Earth is under attack!' storyline. They've got a lot more planets in the UP than Earth, after all, and it might be useful to see planets like Daxam (in the Great Darkness Saga) and Orando (in the LSV 'war').

I can't remember if I've actually posted this before, but here's my own personal colonization of Titan story:

As Earthlings first begin to explore their solar system (say, the late 21st century), they pretty quickly discover the unique psychotropic effects of Saturn's rings, and in particular the effect they have of reducing criminal tendencies in those exposed to them for any length of time. So, somebody comes up with the idea of building a nice big orbital prison. At first, they have a fair amount of success with the rehabilitation of minor criminals in this environment, but then an official get the idea of sending much more serious criminals to this nice, isolated prison facility. And then disaster strikes, as the facilities were not really designed for maximum-security prisoners, which quickly leads to a massive prison break/war, and eventually to the whole station crashing into the surface of Titan.

Well, the whole thing is pretty much written off as a disaster by the pols back on Earth, and it's about twenty-five years before anyone actually lands on Titan to discover what happened. When they do, they find that the many of the guards and prisoners managed to survive and have been living in what was left of the space station. They've already begun terraforming the environment of Titan, but the most interesting thing is that their children seem to have been born with telepathic abilities of various sorts, presumably as a result of the exposure to Saturn's rings.

Ooh, that gives Titan a very 'Australia' feel to it! Very cool!

I came up with AU versions of Titan, Braal, Winath, Colu, Cargg, Venegar and Kathoon for Emerald Legion, but it would take half the thread to describe them, and some (such as Cargg and Colu) didn't get described as much in the story as in the Author's Notes).

http://www.skiltair.com/Ian/Index_LoSH_Main.htm

WOW!!! I only expected to get a few replies. Impressive responses folks. Lets keep it going.

Good ideas. However wouldn't the Legion bylaws preclude a cyborg from applying for membership? If I remember correctly the Legion constitution states that a members powers must be innate and not be from anything artificial. Such as machinery, drugs, implants, etc. Now what you were probably implying was what if the Coluans were sentient machines. Which I agree with you as an idea since The Coluans we've seen throughout the years have been somewhat cold in character. It would also explain alot as far as Pulsar Stargraves' claims to being Coluan in origin. I always thought Pulsar was one of the cooler Legion villians. Was his character ever used after the Tom and Mary Birbaum reboot?

Here's another for you. Karate Kid. I've always been on the fence about this character. Which is kind of weird given my love of martial arts. If I were to redo his character I'd first make him of asian decent. Call me literal but I've never really felt comfortable with a white master with all this martial arts experience. Again kind of weird given that I'm white. The direction I'd go with the character is for one he would have powers as well as vast martial arts skills. His powers would be based on certain powers attributed to the martial arts. I'm speaking of effects brought about by that mysterious energy known as "chi." Or ki or whatever name you prefer based on what culture you're thinking of. Also I'd change his name. Maybe Dragon, or Chi, or some other suitable name. As far as his powers go I would base his powers on certain mythical chi powers. He would be able to heal or harm based on what he needed his powers for. Another ability would be to hurl bolts of concusive force ala Steet Fighter. Also chi has been supposedly used for other effects such as increased durability, speed, strength, and longevity among others. These powers would not always be in effect though. He would use them not unlike Ultra Boys' one at a time Superman abilities. As far as how he got these abilities unlike the mythical way these abilities are atributed to long term study in the martial arts, his abilities are a birthright. I'm thinking of basing this character on an old folklore hero of China. Anyone with more knowledge on mythical folk heroes of China can fill in the blanks I'm leaving about this character. His name escapes me but this mythical hero has been alive for centuries and uses his abilities to heal his countrymen and defend them with his martial arts skills. I would have this new "Karate" Kid be descended from this hero. Any other thoughts anyone?

Taking your idea one step further, Otto, perhaps a retcon Val would be even more strongly combined with Jo, as a single 'Emerald Dragon' character who is a martial artist without peer, who grew up on the mean streets of some futuristic Hong Kong-looking colony world called Rimbor.

His attitude would change to be more 'whatever works,' much like Bruce Lee, who found traditional martial arts to be overly restrictive and designed his own Jeet Kune Do to adopt techniques from a half dozen other styles, and he'd have a scruffier Jo-like appearance, with scruffy unshaven face and long unkempt hair (which would, not at all coincidentally, make him look like the hero of dozens of different anime or manga). He'd have the ability to focus his ki to boost his strength (usually used for 'board-breaking blows' of improbably strength or whatever), speed, toughness (to shatter swords against his suddenly steel-hard limbs), etc. He'd be able to fall from great heights and leap like Wuxia heroes, but not actually fly. And, once in a blue moon, he'd unleash 'the dragon's fire' and project a blast of greenish fire from the dragon's tattoo on his chest (same basic effect as Jo's flash vision, just with a different special effect).

Just your basic Ultra Boy / Karate Kid mashup, with a ghost of a hint of Green Lantern, by the way of Iron Fist.

Going back to the Triplicate Girl sub-conversation that sort of kicked this off, I've been reading a bit about triune three-faced goddess figures, such as the three Norns, the Furies, three Gorgons, the Morrigan, etc. and been wondering if that might be worked into a retcon version of Triplicate Girl. Maiden, Mother and Crone, all in one, would perhaps not fit the superhero genre as well (since, barring a character from DP7, superheroines of advanced age aren't exactly commonplace), but taking a concept like the Celtic Morrigan, a warrior-goddess with three aspects, you could 'myth up' Trips pretty neatly.

Heck, a 'Legion of Mythic Heroes' that took the Authority / 'Justice League as modern-day pantheon' concept one step further and made Garth the Thunderer, Rokk the Master of Earth and Steel and Imra the Bringer of Law, Language and Civilization could be neat. Brainy could be the Maker, with a bionic leg a la Forge making his connection to Hephaestus a little more overt. Mon-El or Superboy could be cast as Apollo the Far-Sighted, drawing power from the sun.

I'm not a big fan of that sort of thing (particularly when it was applied to people like Batman, who began to be mockingly referred to as Batgod, and placed on a mythic pedastal with the likes of Superman), but it would make for an interesting alternate world to see. It wouldn't even have to start as an AU, but could start with the Legion of some alternate future timeline seeing their universe destroyed, and escaping through time to classical earth, where they end up taking on the roles of mythic figures from Earth's history, with a magnificently bearded Garth becoming known as Zeus, and Imra taking his side as 'Queen of the Gods,' Hera. To the pre-technological people of Earth, their powers (and flight rings) would make them seem like mythic figures, and they could attempt to set the world on course to prevent the foreordained devastation that sent them back in time in the first place! Since their future would be destroyed, they couldn't just time travel forward to escape the past, but would have to remain in the ancient past, attempting to set into motion events (and bury equipment, seed other worlds with life, etc.) to prepare the galaxy for the cataclysm-to-come.

Would it not be cool if after Lo3W was finished its run we were left with a Luornu that would split into 3 beings, one each from the Levitz, reboot, AND 3boot with precise memories of each universe/timeline!?
LOL
Wouldn't that confuse the hell out of continuity?

I suppose I was going with a less restrictive version of Legion membership. My point is that, by the 30th century, we will hardly distinguish between natural and artificial powers.

Hey, Set-- that Legionnaires-as-mythical-figures idea is a cool one!

Another take on it-- how about one in which the entire team travels back in time to a preliterate/prehistoric sitting 'round the campfire telling stories era on a remote, but populated world.

The Legionnaires don't act like gods or build an Olympus or anything, but the peoples of the time do see them using their powers and interacting.

After returning to their home time, the group has cause to revist said planet in their own era and discover that mythological constructs had been built up around them.

A Caargite manifesting the Fates/Norns/Gorgons/Furies myths would be terrific, I think. Though I'd like to see it more Caarg-centric, if you will. If they are colonists of Terran extraction, maybe the proposed figure could be a bit of a catch-all. One facet's a fury- with the claws and the wings and the family/guilt/justice bit, one's a Gorgon turning onlookers to stone, one's a Fate/Norn telling the future, holding the thread of life in it's hands...

I find it fascinating that the idea crops up in Greek, Norse and Celtic pantheons. Sometimes expressed as literally three faces of one, sometimes as linked-but-separate individuals.

I wonder why they've all been female? I can't think of a similar male use of this mytho-imagery offhand. Did you come across any in your reading? Other than the Christian Holy Trinity, I mean. I guess that'd qualify as 'male' (though one third of it is sometimes viewed as female in some circles).